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On March 22 2011 04:14 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:08 Shiladie wrote:On March 22 2011 04:02 GreEny K wrote:
People were crying about VR, it was changed... People cried about HT, it was changed... If Sentries get changed I will be pissed, all the people that are saying that FF is OP because it splits their army up, so what? FF is the only way protoss can hold off all-ins and buy some precious time to get those few extra units out. which is why we're looking for ways that you can still use it in that regard, but to lessen it's effect in the mid game. This was partially done with the massive units crushing them change, but massive units come too late it seems. allowing unrooted crawlers to crush them, as well as limiting 1 per sentry would not change your early game scenarios, but would make them less overpowering mid-game. If you are having trouble with FF midgame, and haven't made the necessary precautions prior to engaging in a battle vs a sentry-heavy army, then you are shit out of luck on your own shortcomings. Some people on these boards will bitch and moan about broken this or OP that, but the fact is that they all know it's an issue, and they all know how to counter it, but they don't. And they have nobody to blame but themselves. Not blizzard, not their opponent. If a nydus worm spawns in my base, I don't start an epic thread about how nydus worms are broken. I just learn how to counter them and deal with it. Adaptation is the most valuable skill in sc2. FFs are no different a threat than anything else.
Counter to nydus: having pylons spread around base to grant vision + ability to warp in, warp in 2-3 zealots (depending on your reaction time) nydus countered. I don't see the parallel you're trying to make here at all...
It's kinda like what you're saying is "do the near impossible to counter my shift-f spam clicking"
That isn't entirely fair I admit, but it feels like, at the pro level, a player going against FF has to spend a LOT more effort to simply survive the forcefields then the P player has to put into placing them.
For example, what exactly is the counter to a forcefielded ramp as zerg?
The on-paper counters are as follows:
Have your army already on the correct side of it
Have ultralisks
Have broodlords
Having burrow and burrow movement, and roaches
Mutas are not a counter, because if the protoss force can be killed with your mutas without ground support, you should have won just after he pushed out.
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To be fair, back in beta, Zerg won a lot of games with Nydus before Terran/Protoss learned to put pylons/supply depots around their base. In that regard, Protoss "did" react to Nydus play.
Likewise, back before the 6-gate timing was known, Zerg won a lot of games with mass Mutalisks. However, reacting to that by learning the 6-gate timing gave Protoss the edge once more in the matchup.
Edit: Removed extra lines from post.
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On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered.
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
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On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
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On March 22 2011 04:33 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF. No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
There's less than ideal and there's so terrible your units cannot even move. This is honestly killing my interest in the pro scene.
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On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF.
If you think relying on chokes as an advantage when you are playing zerg is wise, then you clearly don't understand the concept of a "surround" or a "concave"... both of which are always hampered by chokes, and both of which are critical to effective zerg agression. Stop looking for a reason to QQ because it's there, and just learn to deal with the fact that the game isn't played on an expansive open field where all races are exactly the same. This isn't Warcraft 2.
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On March 22 2011 04:39 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:33 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:
[quote]
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF. No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was. Yeah well that sucks for you... I guess. I watch the pro scene and they find ways to avoid getting completely screwed by 1 ability. It's not an all of a sudden thing, you have to work the whole game to avoid it. There's less than ideal and there's so terrible your units cannot even move. This is honestly killing my interest in the pro scene.
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On March 22 2011 04:33 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:27 Kazuo wrote:
What if forcefields were given health? This way they will still serve their purpose but the enemy will have to choose to either focus the ffs or engage. If they focus the ffs they are getting hit simultaneously. And they would have to focus multiple ffs or else they face a narrow choke, which no zerg wants. And possible add either a twilight or core upgrade which makes ffs invulnerable like now so late game armies don't melt them but should have burrow move available. I think this would help z early but maybe not so good vs t. Just a thought Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever. FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything. I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF. No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was.
The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up.
Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are.....
If it becomes no longer viable to fast expand as Z because people learn how to use forcefield well, you can expect a lot of 1 base roach all-ins.....
Oh, wait, you can forcefield your ramp to defend against that anyways.....
Nvm, 7 pool it is.
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On March 22 2011 04:48 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:33 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:
[quote]
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF. No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was. The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up. Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are..... If it becomes no longer viable to fast expand as Z because people learn how to use forcefield well, you can expect a lot of 1 base roach all-ins..... Oh, wait, you can forcefield your ramp to defend against that anyways..... Nvm, 7 pool it is.
You'll have 1 forcefield when 7 roach push hits... That won't do you any good for long, if you keep making sentries then you won't have a strong army that can kill roach when they finally break in.
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Which is why you FF while waiting for the immortal to build, no?
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On March 22 2011 04:48 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:33 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:
[quote]
Then it's just a bigger, yet completly immobile hallucination which is generally the most overlooked protoss ability ever.
FFs shouldnt be changed IMO. They don't actually kill anything. What gets kills from FF is good timing on behalf of the user, or poor micro on behalf of the opponent. Those factors are what make FF good against anything.
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move... Oh please. Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then? What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF. No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was. The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up. Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are..... .
Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
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On March 22 2011 04:57 Treemonkeys wrote:
Which is why you FF while waiting for the immortal to build, no?
Yeah that won't work out well, you need stalkers to kill off the roaches otherwise they will kill your core/ gateway with their overlord spotting the cliff.
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On March 22 2011 03:51 Rob28 wrote:
I think if you want to nerf FF in any way to help "poor weak zerg" out, then maybe you should also remove the ability to 6-pool while you're at it. See who cries after that move...
Nerf forcefield in exchange for no 6 pools? Deal...
That's like trading a penny for a dollar
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On March 22 2011 04:57 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:48 Impervious wrote:On March 22 2011 04:33 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:
[quote]
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF. No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was. The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up. Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are..... . Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time.
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On March 22 2011 04:57 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:48 Impervious wrote:On March 22 2011 04:33 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 03:55 Treemonkeys wrote:
[quote]
Oh please.
Poor micro = should have ran away sooner. When toss is being aggressive, what then?
What is good anti-FF micro? Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF. No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was. The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up. Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are..... . Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful.
FF only defense against 6 / 7 pool? what the hell are you talking about?
Against a 6/7pool you won't ever get 150 minerals for a cyber and building time to build a weak sentry. Forget that.
We can talk about a FF nerf if Gateway units receive a Buff.
You're able to survive every early rushes if you chronoboost out your Gateway units off of 1 Gateway.
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On March 22 2011 05:02 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 04:57 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 04:48 Impervious wrote:On March 22 2011 04:33 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:On March 22 2011 04:01 Rob28 wrote:
[quote]
Little thing called "baiting Forcefields". Another tactic known as "flanking". Maybe you've heard of it. Then there's army spread... not starting a fight in a chokepoint... the choice of units that render FF useless (massives, flyers, burrowers, etc.)... Oh yeah, and sentry sniping. Or EMP. Or feedback. its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF. No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was. The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up. Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are..... . Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful. Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time.
That's not a good reason to nerf something.
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On March 22 2011 01:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 01:10 andrewlt wrote:
I'd like to see other races get spells as powerful as FF instead of nerfing FF. The last thing SC2 needs right now is another nerf to another skill-discriminating ability. By skill discriminating, I mean an ability that changes a lot depending on the skill of the user. The last thing protoss needs right now is another incentive to go colossus.
Agreed. When you say "as powerful as" FF, are you referring to spells that remove the ability to micro? Because Zerg has fungal growth and Terran has concussive shells. Now granted, infestors are far less common (and harder to tech to, in general), than sentries. However, a single FG is far more powerful than a single FF, as the former freezes units and deals damage to that cluster. FFs are only good when used multiple times (often requiring multiple sentries). So infestor and FG are certainly viable options, and note that the Blizzard panel has said many times that they don't want exact equivalences in units and abilities across the board. As for Terrans... well, marauders do far more damage than sentries do (especially with stim), and they're cheaper, so marauders with concussive shells are certainly viable options as well. Again, note that the Blizzard panel has said many times that they don't want exact equivalences in units and abilities across the board. Therefore, I don't think there will be any new Zerg or Terran spell that literally is a forcefield. Concussive shells and fungal growth are close though, especially in the "remove micro" department.
No, I'm referring to any active abilities, period. BW has tons of active abilities that do different things but are balanced in the end. It doesn't have to be a forcefield. Dark swarm/plague vs storms in BW were different but they did the job.
A passive ability like the marauder's certainly isn't it. The prevalence of powerful passive abilities in SC2 does nothing except decrease enjoyment in watching pro games.
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On March 22 2011 05:07 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 05:02 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:57 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 04:48 Impervious wrote:On March 22 2011 04:33 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:06 imbs wrote:
[quote]
its still mostly on the protoss to not make mistakes with things like baiting. its pretty easy to tell when someone is doing that. It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units. Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF. No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was. The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up. Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are..... . Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful. Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time. That's not a good reason to nerf something.
Considering I didn't give a reason...no fucking shit...
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The best part of force field is that you fool your opponent into thinking that unit is important and then you transition into BattleCruisers!
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On March 22 2011 05:08 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 05:07 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 05:02 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:57 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 04:48 Impervious wrote:On March 22 2011 04:33 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:27 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:12 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:09 GreEny K wrote:
[quote]
It's also extremely simple to not attack at a choke or flanking your opponent... Can't really box in your army against ranged units, it would just corner your own units.
Yeah very simple, protoss attacks your choke, don't attack him! Just gg out. See how easy it is to avoid fighting in chokes? Then if there's no choke, they can still just MC doughnut your ass. How about you don't rally all of your army mindlessly to the choke and actively scout... Maybe if you decided to leave a single ling outside of the protoss base and then moved your army if he decided to move out, that could help avoid chokes and at the same time allow you to set up for a flank. I'm positive that you can just show half of your army and keep the rest off to the side and when he comes in just flank... It's not rocket science, and before you go off on some tangent; I use flank attacks all the time and they work wonders even when you are out numbered. That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF. No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was. The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up. Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are..... . Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful. Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time. That's not a good reason to nerf something. Considering I didn't give a reason...no fucking shit...
Then don't say sentences that start with "Which is why they need to...". It generally implies you have a prior established rationale for making a statement.
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EPT
