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On March 22 2011 05:26 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 05:20 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 05:14 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 05:08 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 05:07 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 05:02 Treemonkeys wrote:On March 22 2011 04:57 Rob28 wrote:On March 22 2011 04:48 Impervious wrote:On March 22 2011 04:33 GreEny K wrote:On March 22 2011 04:30 Treemonkeys wrote:
[quote]
That's nice and all but you still have to fight in chokes sometimes, it can't always be avoided, nevermind that the defensive advantage can be turned into a disadvantage with FF. No race fight in only ideal situations... What would be the point of the game then? Everyone else learns to deal with it somehow. Maybe you should look into builds that focus on sentry sniping, in Brood War Zerg players did 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra. The muta picked off the high templar while massing up hydra for the finishing blow, if they failed to kill enough HT or eco then they were completely screwed but that was how it was. The difference is that there are no good sniping units for Z in the time period where sentries are the issue..... We've got the roach, the ling, and the queen by the time a 4 or 6 gate shows up. Once we can get mutas out, or roach burrow + move, or ultras out, forcefields aren't as big of an issue..... The early warpgate + forcefield pushes are where the problems are..... . Which is the whole reason FF even exists. If there were no FF, 9 out of 10 zerg rushes would succeed. Where's the fun in that? FF is literally the only defense toss have against 6 or 7 pool, other than relying on an opponent to be incompetent. It's already been well established earlier in this thread that FF is curcial to protoss early survival. And that's defensively. Early FF on a toss rush is nowhere near as useful. Which is whey they need to either limit it to one FF per sentry or limit the total number of FFs that can be on the field at a time. That's not a good reason to nerf something. Considering I didn't give a reason...no fucking shit... Then don't say sentences that start with "Which is why they need to...". It generally implies you have a prior established rationale for making a statement. Are you brain dead? Established rationale = can't nerf FF, protoss needs them too much for early defense (your own fucking post that I responded to) Basis of my statement = how to nerf FF without effecting early game defense - direct response to your post Yeah, and I said "That's not a good reason to nerf something". And you said you never gave a reason, but clearly you're using my statement as a reason. look wahtever, I'm not getting into an argument about semantics. Final statement I'm going to make here: If you can't deal with forcefields, that's tough shit for you. Forcefields aren't some magic superweapon that guarantee a win. If they were, we'd have 100% protoss win-rate. It takes skill to use them, and skill to fight them. That's what good pro-level sc2 is about... skill. FFs are as much as aspect of the protoss army now as zealots. Deal with it, and stop QQing over something that isn't as uber-powerful as everyone seems to be making it out to be. It doesn't need a nerf. Toss have been nerfed enough since the beta, thanks.
ha. i agree dont nerf nor buff stuff. do something like they did with void rays. change the mechanics of a unit to better the game. nerfing or buffing only leads to more problems.
and yes, FF takes skills.
but we are taking about high level gameplay here.
at high levels, toss players know how to set FF well.
and that destroys zerg. its a strong early tech.
because the high level players know how to use FF, it ruins the game.
its a skill cap. you know how to use FF well, and you instantly win vs Z.
this is why this topic started.
not cuz some bronze league player wants to QQ about them losing to probably one damn forcefield.
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i know sentrys have pretty low dps all ready. but i think it should be lowerd a little bit more. so that they are pretty much strictly a spell caster. like infestors.
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"Competitive gamer" 10 years ago:
- "Guys, I found a new overbounce on pro-q3dmXXX"
- "Yay, I can finally do this fancy jump backwards"
- "FUCKING OWNED"
"Competitive gamer" nowdays:
- "BUFF"
- "NERF"
- "NOT FAIR"
- "BM BM"
What's wrong with you, people?
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On March 22 2011 17:40 MolestedRabbit wrote:
"Competitive gamer" 10 years ago:
- "Guys, I found a new overbounce on pro-q3dmXXX"
- "Yay, I can finally do this fancy jump backwards"
- "FUCKING OWNED"
"Competitive gamer" nowdays:
- "BUFF"
- "NERF"
- "NOT FAIR"
- "BM BM"
What's wrong with you, people?
"Newfags, newfags everywhere." just about sums it up.
It's quite sad how everything has degenerated into this.
When I started out with online gaming way back in the day the general mindset of just about everyone was "be the underdog, face better opponents or stronger tactics and you'll become better faster. If you lose, it's because of yourself. There is no bad tactic or play"
Now it's just "herp derp his race is imba, nerf!"
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I would like to see how the game would play out if both the duration and energy cost of force field was drastically reduced. Say half or even 1/4 of the current duration and energy cost.
You should be able to get the same amount of use from these force fields but it would require a lot more APM.
I love the spell and I love the fact that when used correctly it can completely turn the tide of a battle, but it definitely feels as though when someone has mastered the use of it (MC) it's very hard to find a way around it as the opponent.
Just a thought.
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I was thinking about this matter for the last 2 days and still agree on that it mostly affects PvZ.
It takes away the dynamic of the game at some points. Especyaly the abbility to block a chocke and end the game at this point, because reinforcements are not comming to the fight.
Everyone was thinking about how to fix the Forcefield and after thinking about it maybe its Zerg who need a fix, not the Sentry.
What about giving the Roach or/and/ the Zerglings an upgrade on somewhere T2 to Jump down a cliff?
I thought about it alot and even dreamed about it...This could make the game very interesting dynamic and also would give the Zerg surrounding abbilitys wich are so often needed and not given due to terrain.
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On March 20 2011 07:35 hidiliho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote:
I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more. 1 of 2 things will happen. 1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
Well P has to tech to either Hts or Collossi to deal with Terran T1. I don't see how it would be any worse. If Ultralisk Cavern only required lair then Ultras would be no later than Collossi.
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On March 22 2011 20:04 pzea469 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:35 hidiliho wrote:On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote:
I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more. 1 of 2 things will happen. 1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters. Well P has to tech to either Hts or Collossi to deal with Terran T1. I don't see how it would be any worse. If Ultralisk Cavern only required lair then Ultras would be no later than Collossi.
Check how long it takes to tech to to ultra and how much they each cost combined with their viability compared to collosi.
You can't just compare it like that.
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edit: Internet messed up and doubleposted.
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On March 22 2011 02:40 Time2Shine wrote:
Burrow Nullifies Force Fields FYI, so does EMP. Odds are if he is doing an early push with warp gates you can invest the money into burrow. He can't attack without detection which requires an observer, which requires Robo, which requires a lot of excess money. So burrow temporarily to counter act his force fields. Then it will work to his disadvantage, because he wasted the energy, and there are force fields blocking his path to your base!
Burrow does not "nullify" force fields, nor does EMP. They simply provide zerg/terran armies with a chance to survive.
You don't go on the offensive with burrow unless you have burrow, tunneling claws, and manage to avoid detectors.
You don't aggressively emp as a preliminary measure unless you have identified a very specific target(which would have most likely cost you a scan or the life of a scout) and figured out a way to approach and disable it. This must be done with a single fragile bio unit that cost 150/150, has insufficient energy to emp on spawn, and requires precision/strategy to execute, before enemy spell casters use any their energy which can be spent in one second.
A lot of people also seem to forget that you can actually spread your spell casters apart to avoid being shut down by 1 emp, withdraw and relocate to a safer position until shields/energy recharge, kill ghosts with 1 feedback-50 energy-instant cast-instant kill, send an observer in front of your army to avoid bumping into ghosts on the way. Once you get close enough to engage, you can just throw forcefields in front of any ghosts and sit back while your colossi rip apart the remaining helpless infantry. Using EMP effectively is far more crucial/difficult than spamming forcefields/storms from within a shileded mass of high hp protoss units equipped with mobile long-range splash damage, and the ability to inexpensively place giant impassable bubbles for the entire duration of a battle.
You die hard protoss-fans aren't really doing nearly as much as you think you are, so stop flipping out every time the game becomes a little bit harder for you. Money is easier to spend(high prices/warp tech/chrono boost), units live long enough to pick a few targets, recover shields after battles, remain useful throughout the entire game, and dictate where battles take place using FF, Colossi, Storm, and Warp Gates, and your reinforcements can be summoned in a matter of seconds to a nearby location without having to go through any obstacles that may hinder anyone else. As a result, there is far more leniency offered when it comes to micro/macro.
If you aren't willing to acknowledge that much, then I don't see why anyone should entertain your ridiculous rants about how unfair it is whenever another race gets anything remotely on par with an "equivalent" protoss counterpart. The race is too strong, it's obvious to anyone with the ability to compete at higher levels, you're going to keep getting nerfed until the pro-scene is happy, and you're going to be just fine without the things that shift balance greatly in your favor. It's seriously completely pathetic how reluctant so many of you are to offer constructive feedback because you might lose an upgrade that completely shuts down bio.
You can't even take this forcefield thread seriously because to embrace the concept would require you to assume that you might not be as good as you think you are. How do you think I felt when Terran siege tank damage was nerfed from 60-70 dmg or whatever it was to 35+15 vs armored? It completely sucked and I was angry that the backbone of Terran (in my opinion) had been nerfed badly enough to literally redefine the way Terran has to be played. It happened though, and I am still using siege tanks every chance I get because its more rewarding than desperate pleas to the development team demanding that they not change the game in a way that makes me try harder.
Please carry on and live a long and happy life
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On March 22 2011 23:45 KaiserGL wrote:
Please just shut up and use all of that energy to improve your obviously-pitiful existences.
Yeah, good luck having anyone acknowledge your points with that tone.
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On March 19 2011 20:07 theBOOCH wrote:
One possible solution- increase the energy requirement for using forcefields while at the same time raising the starting energy of the sentry. This would mean that a single sentry would still be enough to defend a rush while not having so much energy as to become overly useful later in the game. Only a thought.
exactly what my solution was when discussing the topic with someone. make it a 60/70/75 w/e spell and raise the starting energy to that. i would be completely cool with that.
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On March 22 2011 23:45 KaiserGL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 02:40 Time2Shine wrote:
Burrow Nullifies Force Fields FYI, so does EMP. Odds are if he is doing an early push with warp gates you can invest the money into burrow. He can't attack without detection which requires an observer, which requires Robo, which requires a lot of excess money. So burrow temporarily to counter act his force fields. Then it will work to his disadvantage, because he wasted the energy, and there are force fields blocking his path to your base! Burrow does not "nullify" force fields, nor does EMP. They simply provide zerg/terran armies with a chance to survive. You don't go on the offensive with burrow unless you have burrow, tunneling claws, and manage to avoid detectors. You don't aggressively emp as a preliminary measure unless you have identified a very specific target(which would have most likely cost you a scan or the life of a scout) and figured out a way to approach and disable it. This must be done with a single fragile bio unit that cost 150/150, has insufficient energy to emp on spawn, and requires precision/strategy to execute, before enemy spell casters use any their energy which can be spent in one second. A lot of people also seem to forget that you can actually spread your spell casters apart to avoid being shut down by 1 emp, withdraw and relocate to a safer position until shields/energy recharge, kill ghosts with 1 feedback-50 energy-instant cast-instant kill, send an observer in front of your army to avoid bumping into ghosts on the way. Once you get close enough to engage, you can just throw forcefields in front of any ghosts and sit back while your colossi rip apart the remaining helpless infantry. Using EMP effectively is far more crucial/difficult than spamming forcefields/storms from within a shileded mass of high hp protoss units equipped with mobile long-range splash damage, and the ability to inexpensively place giant impassable bubbles for the entire duration of a battle. You die hard protoss-fans aren't really doing nearly as much as you think you are, so stop flipping out every time the game becomes a little bit harder for you. Money is easier to spend(high prices/warp tech/chrono boost), units live long enough to pick a few targets, recover shields after battles, remain useful throughout the entire game, and dictate where battles take place using FF, Colossi, Storm, and Warp Gates, and your reinforcements can be summoned in a matter of seconds to a nearby location without having to go through any obstacles that may hinder anyone else. As a result, there is far more leniency offered when it comes to micro/macro. If you aren't willing to acknowledge that much, then I don't see why anyone should entertain your ridiculous rants about how unfair it is whenever another race gets anything remotely on par with an "equivalent" protoss counterpart. The race is too strong, it's obvious to anyone with the ability to compete at higher levels, you're going to keep getting nerfed until the pro-scene is happy, and you're going to be just fine without the things that shift balance greatly in your favor. It's seriously completely pathetic how reluctant so many of you are to offer constructive feedback because you might lose an upgrade that completely shuts down bio. You can't even take this forcefield thread seriously because to embrace the concept would require you to assume that you might not be as good as you think you are. How do you think I felt when Terran siege tank damage was nerfed from 60-70 dmg or whatever it was to 35+15 vs armored? It completely sucked and I was angry that the backbone of Terran (in my opinion) had been nerfed badly enough to literally redefine the way Terran has to be played. It happened though, and I am still using siege tanks every chance I get because its more rewarding than desperate pleas to the development team demanding that they not change the game in a way that makes me try harder. Please just shut up and use all of that energy to improve your obviously-pitiful existences.
Yeah, good luck getting anyone to remember your post for more than 5 seconds after writing it like that then adding a moronic comment at the end. Try again without the stupidity if you're interested in feedback?
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to those who pointed out my rude closure
really good point actually, lol
edited
That was pretty poorly planned ill admit
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FF are just very different from anything implemented into a SC game. This still makes them a difficult thing to adjust to. The fact that they make such an impact is not a reason to nerf or buff them. As it stands, the Protoss has had their early game nerfed so drastically that they need the FF.
I feel that this is one of those mechanics that Bliz implemented that is essential early game but "feels" broken late game. This is very similar IMO to the MULE. Early on it is very realistic but at 3 bases a terran can out mine a fully saturated expansion instantly. I think in both counts the only realistic approach would be duration or cooldown. FF from 15>10 seconds would be perfectly fine. But I am worried, because Blizz took the easy road with the amulet.
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On March 23 2011 00:08 dlax wrote:
FF are just very different from anything implemented into a SC game. This still makes them a difficult thing to adjust to. The fact that they make such an impact is not a reason to nerf or buff them. As it stands, the Protoss has had their early game nerfed so drastically that they need the FF.
I feel that this is one of those mechanics that Bliz implemented that is essential early game but "feels" broken late game. This is very similar IMO to the MULE. Early on it is very realistic but at 3 bases a terran can out mine a fully saturated expansion instantly. I think in both counts the only realistic approach would be duration or cooldown. FF from 15>10 seconds would be perfectly fine. But I am worried, because Blizz took the easy road with the amulet.
1.4 Patch note
Force Field Ability removed
I can see it now almost as much as I don't want to
As much as I hate FF I think they make the game dynamic and fun to play. Hell can you imagine playing against a P as a T when the P has no FFs? it's gonna be so boring >.<
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On March 22 2011 10:10 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2011 00:10 Giantt wrote:
@Severedevil,
Yes of course there is a way to negate any given build the problem is knowing about it.
If I invest 450 for 3 extra queens (assume 2 before 7th minute mark is default in 90% of games) and 2 drones=> spores - 250 roughly that is total of 700 minerals + 2 larva + opportunity cost for the 2 drones that has been misplaced if the enemy comes with pure gate.
You might imagine the result if a zerg tries to play safe against a build that actually is not comming.
Zerg can negate the one-base aggression builds without knowing which one is coming, provided the Zerg knows that timing at which each build CAN show up. And Zerg can afford to do so because Protoss is on one base. Once Protoss goes to two bases, Zerg can easily saturate his natural long before the Protoss, and start thinking about a third.
This is simply untrue - to adequately defend against a 4gate, you are also making it so that you cannot win against an expansive build. Knowing the timing of the 4gate won't help you because you still need to be droning at that time instead of units, unless you know for sure that it IS a 4gate.
There isn't any sort of tech that gives you a large cost efficiency advantage (such as banelings against a 2rax) which allows you to cut corners - you need a lot of units, which can be read as less drones - drones you need against a 3gate expand. As for overlord scouting, it doesn't often get anywhere or see anything - you can't have your strategy depend on it.
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Hydra SpineCrawlers are the Force Field Counter as IMLosira has shown as
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On March 22 2011 23:45 KaiserGL wrote:
You die hard protoss-fans aren't really doing nearly as much as you think you are, so stop flipping out every time the game becomes a little bit harder for you. Money is easier to spend(high prices/warp tech/chrono boost), units live long enough to pick a few targets, recover shields after battles, remain useful throughout the entire game, and dictate where battles take place using FF, Colossi, Storm, and Warp Gates, and your reinforcements can be summoned in a matter of seconds to a nearby location without having to go through any obstacles that may hinder anyone else. As a result, there is far more leniency offered when it comes to micro/macro.
If you aren't willing to acknowledge that much, then I don't see why anyone should entertain your ridiculous rants about how unfair it is whenever another race gets anything remotely on par with an "equivalent" protoss counterpart. The race is too strong, it's obvious to anyone with the ability to compete at higher levels, you're going to keep getting nerfed until the pro-scene is happy, and you're going to be just fine without the things that shift balance greatly in your favor. It's seriously completely pathetic how reluctant so many of you are to offer constructive feedback because you might lose an upgrade that completely shuts down bio.
You can't even take this forcefield thread seriously because to embrace the concept would require you to assume that you might not be as good as you think you are. How do you think I felt when Terran siege tank damage was nerfed from 60-70 dmg or whatever it was to 35+15 vs armored? It completely sucked and I was angry that the backbone of Terran (in my opinion) had been nerfed badly enough to literally redefine the way Terran has to be played. It happened though, and I am still using siege tanks every chance I get because its more rewarding than desperate pleas to the development team demanding that they not change the game in a way that makes me try harder.
Please carry on and live a long and happy life
The amount of ignorance in this thread is absolutely MIND BOGGLING. Have you ever played a single game as protoss? IMO, and I'm sure I'm nowhere near alone, protoss macro is BY FAR the hardest out of the 3 races. You cannot build gateway units without looking at a power field - good luck doing that in the middle of a battle while microing.
On top of that, each time you chrono boost, you need to make a concious decision of what you're going to chrono boost, and then do it. This is hard to do instantly, and if you have say 10 gateways spread between 3 bases, and you want to chrono all of them, you have to physically go to the location of each and every one and click on them, a process that takes longer than you seem realize.
Try playing toss before you say it's easy mode - unless you're in bronze, IMO toss macro is the hardest of the 3 races due to the factors I mentioned. And I main zerg.
On March 23 2011 10:09 Blasterion wrote:
Hydra SpineCrawlers are the Force Field Counter as IMLosira has shown as
:facepalm:
Have you played zerg? That is the counter to a VERY specific robo push.
This thread was started with regard to the games of July vs MC, with an EXTREMELY different attack, that came much, much sooner. If you try to build hydras for a 6 gate, the toss is going to lol all over you.
The correct counter to a 6 gate is speed burrow roaches. The correct counter to a robo push before colossi is hydra ling. Both implement FF, but require different counters. You can't make blanket statements like that "X pro did this, so it is the absolute counter, always". Did you ever consider that Losira is FAR, FAR better than his opponent? Because he is.
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EPT
