EPTThey are such an integral part of protoss play, I really don't see how FFs can be changed that wouldn't wouldn't make them useless.
A thorough analysis of Force Fields - Page 35
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
They are such an integral part of protoss play, I really don't see how FFs can be changed that wouldn't wouldn't make them useless. | ||
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najreteip
Belgium4158 Posts
Now I play toss and I'm just silver league(wich makes me a noob, yes I know). But I have only lost 1 out of my last 14 pvz's(often against superior opponents(gold and plat), just by planting decent forcefields. The fact that they turn both zerg early game defence units useless is somewhat ridiculous, but what exactly can you do about it without screwing up pvt. No forcefields means terrans can go back to bombrushing ramps with stimmed marauders, and I know for sure no-one wants that(except for terran players of course). I think the answer lies in introducing a new early game unit for zerg(or making hydras hatch tech again), but that'll probaly have to wait until heart of the swarm. Anyway that's just my opinion feel free to bash me | ||
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Playguuu
United States926 Posts
Guess what? People massed them anyway and we're right back where we started. 12 sentry 6 gate is pretty disgusting and almost impossible to stop if controlled properly. | ||
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TerranBanker
Canada22 Posts
What about giving the FFs a health bar? If there is enough health to it, it would still delay/prevent terrans to come up the ramp... later in the game the player being FFed would have to choose whether the FF is well placed enough for him to be better off breaking out rather than continuing to attack or going around it. I'm nowhere near good enough to suggest the level of health that would be optimal to strike balance but I still think it's worth a look... I'm a noob, let me have it(respectfully) if I'm way off, I'll end up understanding the game better. TB | ||
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Thorn Raven
United States126 Posts
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Rokk
United States425 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:45 Thorn Raven wrote: How about only letting ForceFields be placed where there is Pylon power? It would be huge, but could add some much needed depth. This would break so many things I can't even begin to describe it. | ||
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
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Torumfroll
290 Posts
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:44 TerranBanker wrote: I've read a lot of the threads but obviously not all 35 pages of them, and although there has been some interesting ideas posted I haven't seen my idea posted yet. What about giving the FFs a health bar? If there is enough health to it, it would still delay/prevent terrans to come up the ramp... later in the game the player being FFed would have to choose whether the FF is well placed enough for him to be better off breaking out rather than continuing to attack or going around it. I'm nowhere near good enough to suggest the level of health that would be optimal to strike balance but I still think it's worth a look... I'm a noob, let me have it(respectfully) if I'm way off, I'll end up understanding the game better. TB I'll give you the simplest reason that it can't have a health bar. Take stimmed marines + marauders vs zerglings + roaches. The greater dps is from the stimmed marines and marauders. That means that we have 2 choices for the health of a forcefield. 1) We can make it too tough for early stimmed marines + marauders to break down. However, this still means that Protoss can cut Zerg off from reinforcements, as there is no way that roach/zergling can break what marine/marauder cannot. 2) We can make it possible for Zerg to break in under 15 seconds (as this is the duration and the way that Zerg will benefit). However, this means that marine/marauder with stim can break it even faster, making a much higher sentry requirement to hold off a 3-rax. However, there is not enough early game gas to build more than 2 sentries before the push hits, which means that 2 forcefields that will last maybe 5 seconds need to hold it off. These are really the only two options save buffing something else from the gateway, which will buff the 4-gate. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On March 29 2011 04:09 Aequos wrote: I'll give you the simplest reason that it can't have a health bar. Take stimmed marines + marauders vs zerglings + roaches. The greater dps is from the stimmed marines and marauders. That means that we have 2 choices for the health of a forcefield. 1) We can make it too tough for early stimmed marines + marauders to break down. However, this still means that Protoss can cut Zerg off from reinforcements, as there is no way that roach/zergling can break what marine/marauder cannot. 2) We can make it possible for Zerg to break in under 15 seconds (as this is the duration and the way that Zerg will benefit). However, this means that marine/marauder with stim can break it even faster, making a much higher sentry requirement to hold off a 3-rax. However, there is not enough early game gas to build more than 2 sentries before the push hits, which means that 2 forcefields that will last maybe 5 seconds need to hold it off. These are really the only two options save buffing something else from the gateway, which will buff the 4-gate. Yeah exactly, but I still think limiting the total number of FFs is the best answer. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On the other hand....I feel gateway units and early toss pushes would be far too weak without FF, so it's tough. Which is why I feel it's bad design in general, it bounces between overpowering and too vital to be removed/nerfed hard. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On March 29 2011 04:15 Serpico wrote: Personally I think FFs are a poorly designed ability in the first place. If a toss uses the right timing with 5-7 sentries and FFs very well, you're almost assuredly dead as zerg. Plus with the ability to deny scouting to make it not seem like a complete all in, it's really difficult with that many sentries as there's relatively larger room for error for the toss, but not the zerg when it comes to positioning. Zerg HAS to have a very good concave and very favorable terrain to win a lot of battles, but because protoss can manipulate that at will it puts pressure on zergs to guess and get burrow without completely knowing what is actually coming. On the other hand....I feel gateway units and early toss pushes would be far too weak without FF, so it's tough. Which is why I feel it's bad design in general, it bounces between overpowering and too vital to be removed/nerfed hard. One of the most basic early pushes (light gas 4-gate) doesn't really use sentries, so I don't really agree that the early pushes would be poor. I'm more concerned with living against early game zerg pushes. Some of our defense there is entirely FF. | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle. When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly. If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.- | ||
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Appendix
Sweden979 Posts
It takes more skill to fuck your opponent up in battle and you can still FF your ramp for same energy | ||
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iPBioOrMech
Turkey297 Posts
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Baeksucho
France46 Posts
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:43 Mailing wrote: As someone said, remove or weaken sentry attack. The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle. When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly. If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.- A Stalker does as much dps as an unstimmed Marine to non-armored targets. A Sentry does even less than that, while having the same range as the Marine. Damn strong indeed. :/ And the only reason they beat Mutalisks for cost, is due to how strong Guardian Shield is against Mutas. Without GS, Sentries lose quite miserably. I mean, you can discuss the power of FF, against Zerg in particular, but spreading outright falsehoods really doesn't make your point any stronger. For instance, it always makes me sad when Zergs say things like "Toss units are just too cost-effective compared to Zerg units.", because that's just a fundamental lack of understanding of the way Protoss works in SC2. | ||
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Mailing
United States3087 Posts
If you watch some of the MC pushes, he can go a far as killing an entire zerg defense without losing more than 2-3 units, it's that insane. | ||
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Sajuuk7
134 Posts
On March 29 2011 03:55 Rokk wrote: This would break so many things I can't even begin to describe it. LMAO. Well for one, you couldn't complain about surviving pushes, because you'd still have forcefield there. It simply wouldn't be insta-win versus any ground army when on the offensive. GASP, you can place pylons anywhere? And you could have a warp prism fly over his ramp if you still wanted to do that cheap trick later? And don't you tell me that having a warp prism over there in time is impossible because that is EXACTLY how Idra died to Crusher. Try again... | ||
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pt
United States813 Posts
Hold f and click. Of course you need to place them correctly, but is it really that hard to learn how to do it? | ||
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