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Also, I keep hearing this.
So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ.
Prove it.
I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat.
What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first).
The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE.
FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields.
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This thread has long outlived is usefulness and is now a breeding ground of useless whine posts. It deserves to be closed.
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On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote:Also, I keep hearing this. Show nested quote +So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ. Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields.
Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen
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On April 13 2011 07:46 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote:Also, I keep hearing this. So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ. Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields. Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen
So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair.
If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable.
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On April 13 2011 07:59 LicH. wrote:
So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair.
Different match-ups and situations have always affected the efficiency of specific units. For example in BW Protoss had to be weary of 2 hatch hydra all-ins. The same build against terran would not be nearly as effective.
Banelings just arent as useful as an all-in busting unit against P.
Obviously there's more to it but you get the idea.
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On April 13 2011 07:59 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:46 Alejandrisha wrote:On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote:Also, I keep hearing this. So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ. Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields. Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair. If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable.
Is a terran QQing about his race right now? rofl fuckin copter.
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United States31 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:34 Demarini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:59 LicH. wrote:On April 13 2011 07:46 Alejandrisha wrote:On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote:Also, I keep hearing this. So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ. Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields. Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair. If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable. Is a terran QQing about his race right now? rofl fuckin copter.
That's exactly what I was thinking...
It's been said so much, but the metagame is changing so fast and SCII is still so young. Terran was largely considered to be the OP race for the longest time, and now that the focus has shifted over to Protoss, Terran get to whine about it? Terran have nothing to whine about, and as a P, I don't think that Protoss' do either. It's funny as hell.
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On April 13 2011 07:59 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:46 Alejandrisha wrote:On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote:Also, I keep hearing this. So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ. Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields. Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair. If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable.
Wow, whine much? So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm supposed to lose everything I have because all I have is a zealot and a sentry while warpgate is finishing versus 30 lings and 8 banelings, and everything but stalkers get annihilated by banelings, and stalkers are annihilated by zerglings? You have a thing called bunkers where you can put your cheap, high dps units in an extremely powerful building that can be repaired, and even if banelings do 80 damage against them they still live through several while keeping your unit alive. You are able to create this after creating your main unit producing building.
Also without forcefield you have the ability to bring all of your scvs, while having mules to back up your econ, while using your ranged high dps units behind a meat shield to kill every single one of my units easily, then I instantly die.
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On April 13 2011 09:32 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:59 LicH. wrote:On April 13 2011 07:46 Alejandrisha wrote:On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote:Also, I keep hearing this. So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ. Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields. Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair. If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable. Wow, whine much? So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm supposed to lose everything I have because all I have is a zealot and a sentry while warpgate is finishing versus 30 lings and 8 banelings, and everything but stalkers get annihilated by banelings, and stalkers are annihilated by zerglings? You have a thing called bunkers where you can put your cheap, high dps units in an extremely powerful building that can be repaired, and even if banelings do 80 damage against them they still live through several while keeping your unit alive. You are able to create this after creating your main unit producing building. Also without forcefield you have the ability to bring all of your scvs, while having mules to back up your econ, while using your ranged high dps units behind a meat shield to kill every single one of my units easily, then I instantly die.
you are doing it wrong if you have 2 units and he has 30 zerglings and 8 banes
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Wow, whine much? So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm supposed to lose everything I have because all I have is a zealot and a sentry while warpgate is finishing versus 30 lings and 8 banelings, and everything but stalkers get annihilated by banelings, and stalkers are annihilated by zerglings? You have a thing called bunkers where you can put your cheap, high dps units in an extremely powerful building that can be repaired, and even if banelings do 80 damage against them they still live through several while keeping your unit alive. You are able to create this after creating your main unit producing building.
So, even though you have 4 army supply and he has 20 supply, you should still be able to fight it off?
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One thing that zergs are starting to learn (to my dismay) is that roach/hydra is a really bad composition in ZvP because their large unit models make them susceptible to splitting by forcefields. Roach/ling, hydra/ling, or ling/bling are all superior.
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On April 13 2011 09:38 Zerg-Master wrote:Show nested quote +Wow, whine much? So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm supposed to lose everything I have because all I have is a zealot and a sentry while warpgate is finishing versus 30 lings and 8 banelings, and everything but stalkers get annihilated by banelings, and stalkers are annihilated by zerglings? You have a thing called bunkers where you can put your cheap, high dps units in an extremely powerful building that can be repaired, and even if banelings do 80 damage against them they still live through several while keeping your unit alive. You are able to create this after creating your main unit producing building. So, even though you have 4 army supply and he has 20 supply, you should still be able to fight it off?
Lol yeah you are right. every zvp should come down to a skirmish between lings and probes at the 4 minute mark. I apologize for making an idiot of myself.
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On April 13 2011 09:37 OrangeSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 09:32 Heavenly wrote:On April 13 2011 07:59 LicH. wrote:On April 13 2011 07:46 Alejandrisha wrote:On April 13 2011 04:27 theBOOCH wrote:Also, I keep hearing this. So you're saying you want P to 4-gate every single game? Because the ability to FF is the only thing that protects P from early agression in PvT and PvZ. Prove it. I can give you 20 examples from pro games where early aggression in TvP fails and no force fields were thrown down, and 50 more where early aggression is completely stopped with one forcefield while the toss techs up without threat. What people are really talking about are stim timings, which used to hit at about 6:50, but now hit at about 7:20-30 or later (because a lot of people are scrapping the stim upgrade first). The reason so many Terrans do one of two things that drive Toss crazy (stim rushes and banshee openings) is that there is no other way to effectively put on pressure (well maybe hellion drops). The other option is to FE. FF are okay at stopping stim timings after the toss expands (but not really that great- stim can still break a FE pretty often). But give me an example of a safe Terran pressure build that comes before the 6 minute mark that can't be stopped without Force Fields. Well, think about a protoss trying to hold off the earliest possible baneling bust + speedling with no forcefields.. not going to happen So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm guaranteed to lose a couple depots and maybe a bunker, but all your race loses is 50 energy? Sounds fair. If I do the wrong fast expand opening with my race, I can literally be a-moved with banelings even if I know its coming. I got HE baneling busted while doing the Jinro build THROUGH 3 raxes, 5 bunkers, and 2 depots on Taldarim. Your race can fucking nexus first and only lose 200 or so energy and live through somethign like that. Unbelievable. Wow, whine much? So when my race gets early baneling busted, I'm supposed to lose everything I have because all I have is a zealot and a sentry while warpgate is finishing versus 30 lings and 8 banelings, and everything but stalkers get annihilated by banelings, and stalkers are annihilated by zerglings? You have a thing called bunkers where you can put your cheap, high dps units in an extremely powerful building that can be repaired, and even if banelings do 80 damage against them they still live through several while keeping your unit alive. You are able to create this after creating your main unit producing building. Also without forcefield you have the ability to bring all of your scvs, while having mules to back up your econ, while using your ranged high dps units behind a meat shield to kill every single one of my units easily, then I instantly die. you are doing it wrong if you have 2 units and he has 30 zerglings and 8 banes
Baneling bust JulyZerg did against White-ra hit before Warpgates were even done and white-ra only had 2 units out, there was no way in hell he could have stooped that if he didn't have forcefields and near impossible to scout. The force fields didn't stop the baneling bust happening either, just delayed it.
A marine has more DPS than a Stalker, Terran have very cheap units to protect them from baneling busts as well as building repairs for super heavy ling aggression. When the baneling busts works and the lings get to the mineral line, then you are fucked because you just can't produce anymore, but Terrans have 50mineral units that they can use to pump out as well as defensive structures that they can salvage to get all their money back on top of mules to compensate for less SCV's.
It is MUCH easier to defend breaks as Terran, if you have watched Morrows stream he Roach/Baneling/Ling busts Terrans quite often, he even lost to a Terran who he managed to clean out his expo but a single Seige tank in the high ground being repaired made it impossible for him to break his ramp. In that case that tank was stronger than any force field, it was literally killing everything that tried to bust the ramp and the SCV's repairing it made it virtually invulnerable to the roaches, do we say we should nerf Seige tanks because a single one could stop 5 Roaches and and a handful of lings/banes from getting up a ramp? But still, after the Terran was down to a single Seige tank, lost most of his SCV's and had to lift his expo he ended up winning because Morrow said the break failed and was "too far behind"
Different races are different, just because Terran gets baneling busted easier doesn't mean that every race has to, the crying is absolutely pathetic but it is funny how this thread just died off, like all the Colossus threads the month before and the Voidray threads before that. I wonder what the next thing will be.
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Braavos36401 Posts
1W Sorcery
Illus. Mark Poole
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EPT
