|
FF Vs Zerg is one of the most talked about topics on TL I think, it's probably also very hard to balance, So I commend Blizz on the job so far. However....
Perhaps the reason this topic is dredged from the depths of history over and over again is because of how FF affects Zerg gameplay? Think about it, 2/3 of the tier 1/1.5 Zerg units are melee. With the Roach only possessing 4 range I think?
A competant 3 -4 gate timing push with Sentries can be really hard to deal with as Z. We NEED overwhelming numbers (EG: like 4ish Sling per Zealot) and FF cuts the numbers advantage in half, by literally cutting the army in half, or blocking ramps for reinforcements etc.
In many cases there really isnt any alternative but to tech to Hydra's (range 7? outranges FF) Or Roach burrow tech. (burrow under FF) All of which is Tier 2. Which gives P a sick little timing they can take advantage of.
I really don't think there's anything we can do to change FF though without totally braking the game.
|
On March 29 2011 07:35 happyness wrote:
Oh please, are people still complaining about those units? They are all actually pretty easy to deal with.
According to most everyone in this thread if Toss didn't have FF they would get roflstomped by Marauders and Roaches. Which is probably what Blizz intended at some point. I just wonder what came first: the marauder/roach as we know them or the FF protecting weak gateway units.
And this may be speculation, but I bet the way they made roaches messed up hydras really bad too. They thought they had to turn it into a turtle slow tank for some reason. And the damage inflation made them have to make the hydra buffer as well.
|
Making Thors is a good idea. Trump really favors them and it's hilarious when he pushes down his ramp and the Toss tries to throw down Force Fields... lolz ensue. Thors are pretty dang good when rushed for. Easy to expand off of as well. So instead of nerfs or changes to Force Field, we could just use one of the tools given to us.
|
On March 29 2011 09:09 marshmallow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 07:35 happyness wrote:
Oh please, are people still complaining about those units? They are all actually pretty easy to deal with.
According to most everyone in this thread if Toss didn't have FF they would get roflstomped by Marauders and Roaches. Which is probably what Blizz intended at some point. I just wonder what came first: the marauder/roach as we know them or the FF protecting weak gateway units. And this may be speculation, but I bet the way they made roaches messed up hydras really bad too. They thought they had to turn it into a turtle slow tank for some reason. And the damage inflation made them have to make the hydra buffer as well.
First came the Warp Gate mechanic, to make the three races different.
Next came the crappy gateway units, as the Warp gate let them be anywhere in huge quantity rapidly.
Finally came the forcefield, as the gateway could not beat anything early game.
It isn't hard to deal with small numbers of marauders and marines, or small numbers of roaches (such would be produced in a standard build order). However, when the person focuses much more on an all-in play, it becomes almost unstoppable for Protoss - save for the forcefield. As has been mentioned, roaches had a great set of wins against Protoss as Zerg simply pushed out with 7 of them. Likewise, the 3rax also had a stretch where it defeated Protoss every time. Forcefield is literally the only way to fight off an all-in like those. If you don't believe me, go find a practice partner and test it.
|
On March 19 2011 22:22 Sirion wrote:
Just a spontaneous idea I got:
Make Queens massive. That has exactly two effects:
a) Queens can crush forcefields, so a ramp block can be negated, and generally the zerg player has an additional defenders advantage against force fields.
b) Phoenixes can no longer lift Queens. So while drones and overlords are still vulnerable, the Queen becomes a valid defense against Phoenixes. And since Hydras seem to fail in that regard, so I consider that positive.
Excellent - excellent idea IMO. This would also make queens actually useful on the battlefield against P.
|
On March 29 2011 07:41 branflakes14 wrote:
I did Ctrl + F "Burrow" but didn't find it mentioned once in the OP and am curious as to why. As a Protoss player it seems as though Zergs can pretty easily "counter" Force Field from a 2base push with mass Sentry by just burrowing and sitting underground until the Force Fields die, then rinsing and repeating until he's all out.
This. I've been opening with a very fast lair and burrowed roaches in every ZvP, and I no longer face any threat from force fields. Heck against a later 2 gas 4 gate, I'll even have tunneling claws by the time his army reaches my base. With 3 gate expand I can just macro like crazy because 9/10 times, my opponent will push out around 10:00, maybe cast some force fields, then immediately retreat once I burrow my roaches. Even with observers, retreating with burrowed roaches is safe, and moreso if you retreat from force fields as he'll be blocking his own army. Then what's left is useless energy-less sentries while I'll have a superior roach count.
So if you're still trying to figure out force fields, try giving up just a little economy to get the tech that's made to counter it.
|
On March 29 2011 10:20 JaqMs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 07:41 branflakes14 wrote:
I did Ctrl + F "Burrow" but didn't find it mentioned once in the OP and am curious as to why. As a Protoss player it seems as though Zergs can pretty easily "counter" Force Field from a 2base push with mass Sentry by just burrowing and sitting underground until the Force Fields die, then rinsing and repeating until he's all out. This. I've been opening with a very fast lair and burrowed roaches in every ZvP, and I no longer face any threat from force fields. Heck against a later 2 gas 4 gate, I'll even have tunneling claws by the time his army reaches my base. With 3 gate expand I can just macro like crazy because 9/10 times, my opponent will push out around 10:00, maybe cast some force fields, then immediately retreat once I burrow my roaches. Even with observers, retreating with burrowed roaches is safe, and moreso if you retreat from force fields as he'll be blocking his own army. Then what's left is useless energy-less sentries while I'll have a superior roach count. So if you're still trying to figure out force fields, try giving up just a little economy to get the tech that's made to counter it.
If you've managed to figure out how to do that [EDIT] without dying to more conventional 4 gate attacks or DT/blink/robo/stargate plays[/EDIT], I'd like to have a replay pack from you.
There's a sick timing window before my T2 takes effect where I have absolutely no clue how to deal with forcefields (other than trying to somehow have a big enough army to engage in the middle of the map without totally screwing my economy, or sacking lings and roaches to kill sentries and waste energy before he can get to my nat), and wins are relying on my opponent fucking up his forcefields rather than me being able to outplay him..... So if you've figured something out that can deal with it, I'd like to see it.
|
On March 29 2011 06:33 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 05:43 Mailing wrote:
As someone said, remove or weaken sentry attack.
The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle.
When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly.
If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.- Even before the stalkers... 6 sentries (300/600) that trap units will deal (per duration/round of FFs that keep the units trapped)... -540 damage to 0 armored units. -450 damage to +1 armored units. That's... -385 minerals worth of zerglings -225/75 worth of roaches Without having a single dps unit and P having the potential to take 0 damage in return. The reason why I think sentry dps/hp is the best point to focus on is because it shouldn't drastically change PvT or PvP where the sentry isn't used in such high #s early on and is a much less significant part of a P's early game DPS compared to ZvP. It also allows for a P to hold 1 base almost as well vs early aggression vs Z (or anything really), but opens up a vulnerability if they try to move out or pump pure sentries early on.
oh noes! 300/600 worth well micro'd units can kill 225/75 worth of units, the game must be broken!
|
On March 29 2011 09:07 Ridiculisk wrote:
FF Vs Zerg is one of the most talked about topics on TL I think, it's probably also very hard to balance, So I commend Blizz on the job so far. However....
Perhaps the reason this topic is dredged from the depths of history over and over again is because of how FF affects Zerg gameplay? Think about it, 2/3 of the tier 1/1.5 Zerg units are melee. With the Roach only possessing 4 range I think?
A competant 3 -4 gate timing push with Sentries can be really hard to deal with as Z. We NEED overwhelming numbers (EG: like 4ish Sling per Zealot) and FF cuts the numbers advantage in half, by literally cutting the army in half, or blocking ramps for reinforcements etc.
In many cases there really isnt any alternative but to tech to Hydra's (range 7? outranges FF) Or Roach burrow tech. (burrow under FF) All of which is Tier 2. Which gives P a sick little timing they can take advantage of.
I really don't think there's anything we can do to change FF though without totally braking the game.
I agree completely. If you tech to those things you have a smaller army, and it would just lose without the need to FF as much, but even if you got Lair+Burrow+Tunneling Claws your lings can't move while burrowed, and you need them to hold it off.
The biggest issue I see is the ability to stack units into a size that they couldn't occupy otherwise though. Case in point:
http://justin.tv/fighterhayabusa/b/282477778
That is a lot of roaches too...way more than enough to crush that toss army in most instances.
|
On March 29 2011 12:28 bovineblitz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 06:33 Logo wrote:On March 29 2011 05:43 Mailing wrote:
As someone said, remove or weaken sentry attack.
The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle.
When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly.
If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.- Even before the stalkers... 6 sentries (300/600) that trap units will deal (per duration/round of FFs that keep the units trapped)... -540 damage to 0 armored units. -450 damage to +1 armored units. That's... -385 minerals worth of zerglings -225/75 worth of roaches Without having a single dps unit and P having the potential to take 0 damage in return. The reason why I think sentry dps/hp is the best point to focus on is because it shouldn't drastically change PvT or PvP where the sentry isn't used in such high #s early on and is a much less significant part of a P's early game DPS compared to ZvP. It also allows for a P to hold 1 base almost as well vs early aggression vs Z (or anything really), but opens up a vulnerability if they try to move out or pump pure sentries early on. oh noes! 300/600 worth well micro'd units can kill 225/75 worth of units, the game must be broken!
...
can you read?
It's 225/75 worth of damage from just a support unit without those support units having to TAKE ANY DAMAGE. So you know, they're still alive afterwards. And you know, every second a sentry lives it gets stronger and stronger because it builds up energy.
|
http://www.justin.tv/kellymilkies/b/282503920
Interview with White-Ra @ 57:00
White-Ra also thinks Forcefields are too strong against Zerg, so he suggests the following change:
Forcefields should have a cooldown similar to the corruptor's corruption ability, rather than being mana based (or simply give the FF ability a long cooldown).
His reasoning behind that is that if you pump out sentries early on in the game like most P's do nowadays, you'll quickly save up 200 energy and then with even 5-6 sentries you can have 20+ forcefields which is way too strong.
I think that would be pretty much a genius change. If the Protoss really wants to completely split a Zerg army into like 5-6 different pieces they'll almost have to overcommit on sentries, which cost a ton of gas and reduces the dps of their army. Sentries are also quite good vs T, but it's mainly to trap a section of bio to let zealots close in or to block the ramp. Also, overmaking them leaves you quite weak to EMP and isn't nearly as powerful as vs Zerg.
|
For such a long post, I'm surprised that it didn't provide any insight at all. You mentioned at the right timings Zerg won't have a suitable counter, isn't that supposed to fall under a good timing push? Give some examples where protoss can ALWAYS exploit this timing to actually prove a point my friend.
Secondly, your theoretical arguments are so ridiculous, what's up with roach has 4 range stalkers have 6 range so roaches technically have 0 range should they get FFed. This is such a joke, in order for that to happen, you'll have to do a front and back FF on the roaches probably wasting a significant amount of energy (not even sure if that is efficient for a medium sized battle). Additionally, you'll have to position your stalkers at a perfect range, at most only 1 wave of them can be hitting the roaches due to their collision size. I can't believe you fail to consider all this in your extremely biased post.
Lastly, if you're to analyze the different races. You'll note that stalkers are way too inefficient to deal with roaches/hydras/marines/marauders. Sure they can hit air and move slightly faster and have a longer range but that is why they are inefficient (expensive), they are multipurpose units. I know comparing units on a 1 - 1 basis is just stupid, but i'm doing it since you did it with the range comparison.
|
On March 29 2011 06:33 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 05:43 Mailing wrote:
As someone said, remove or weaken sentry attack.
The reason these stupid ass sentry/stalker rushes keep happening is because sentries are actually damn strong. They have one less DPS than a stalker. They BEAT MUTALISKS in battle.
When you got 4 stalkers and 7-9 sentries firing, roaches even with their armor die quite quickly.
If you watch the Moon vs Squirtle games at IEM, Moon drops like 16 hydra in his base and 8-10 sentries are able to kill them quite fine -.- Even before the stalkers... 6 sentries (300/600) that trap units will deal (per duration/round of FFs that keep the units trapped)... -540 damage to 0 armored units. -450 damage to +1 armored units. That's... -385 minerals worth of zerglings -225/75 worth of roaches Without having a single dps unit and P having the potential to take 0 damage in return. The reason why I think sentry dps/hp is the best point to focus on is because it shouldn't drastically change PvT or PvP where the sentry isn't used in such high #s early on and is a much less significant part of a P's early game DPS compared to ZvP. It also allows for a P to hold 1 base almost as well vs early aggression vs Z (or anything really), but opens up a vulnerability if they try to move out or pump pure sentries early on.
Sigh, if you're a zerg that can get your 385 minerals worth of lings stuck in FFs then you should just quit the game. A reason why FFs are so important is due to the ridiculous speed of the zerg army. Please post a replay of yourself surrounding that army of units with FFs and killing all of them with your 6 sentries. FFs do not last forever btw.
|
I liked what sen did in the GSL team world thing against two-base 5-gate: just build a ton of spines as FF doesn't affect them.
Though Sen is very vocal on how much he thinks FF are imba :D
|
What if Queens could break down Forcefields by running through them. It would only happen in defensive situations.
|
On March 29 2011 13:13 happyness wrote:
I liked what sen did in the GSL team world thing against two-base 5-gate: just build a ton of spines as FF doesn't affect them.
Though Sen is very vocal on how much he thinks FF are imba :D
Are you referencing that video he made back after some MLG that i can not remember where he played toss for a few games on someone else's korean account and just went mass FF. I love that video he makes the best commentary during it.
|
On March 29 2011 12:46 teamsolid wrote:http://www.justin.tv/kellymilkies/b/282503920Interview with White-Ra @ 57:00 White-Ra also thinks Forcefields are too strong against Zerg, so he suggests the following change: Forcefields should have a cooldown similar to the corruptor's corruption ability, rather than being mana based (or simply give the FF ability a long cooldown). His reasoning behind that is that if you pump out sentries early on in the game like most P's do nowadays, you'll quickly save up 200 energy and then with even 5-6 sentries you can have 20+ forcefields which is way too strong. I think that would be pretty much a genius change. If the Protoss really wants to completely split a Zerg army into like 5-6 different pieces they'll almost have to overcommit on sentries, which cost a ton of gas and reduces the dps of their army. Sentries are also quite good vs T, but it's mainly to trap a section of bio to let zealots close in or to block the ramp. Also, overmaking them leaves you quite weak to EMP and isn't nearly as powerful as vs Zerg.
This sounds like an amazing idea, make it similar to blink.
|
On March 29 2011 14:02 iCCup.Nove wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 12:46 teamsolid wrote:http://www.justin.tv/kellymilkies/b/282503920Interview with White-Ra @ 57:00 White-Ra also thinks Forcefields are too strong against Zerg, so he suggests the following change: Forcefields should have a cooldown similar to the corruptor's corruption ability, rather than being mana based (or simply give the FF ability a long cooldown). His reasoning behind that is that if you pump out sentries early on in the game like most P's do nowadays, you'll quickly save up 200 energy and then with even 5-6 sentries you can have 20+ forcefields which is way too strong. I think that would be pretty much a genius change. If the Protoss really wants to completely split a Zerg army into like 5-6 different pieces they'll almost have to overcommit on sentries, which cost a ton of gas and reduces the dps of their army. Sentries are also quite good vs T, but it's mainly to trap a section of bio to let zealots close in or to block the ramp. Also, overmaking them leaves you quite weak to EMP and isn't nearly as powerful as vs Zerg. This sounds like an amazing idea, make it similar to blink.
Cooldown for forcefield sounds like an amazing idea. It should be short enough that you can cast one before the other one goes away.
|
On March 29 2011 15:44 Mintastic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 14:02 iCCup.Nove wrote:On March 29 2011 12:46 teamsolid wrote:http://www.justin.tv/kellymilkies/b/282503920Interview with White-Ra @ 57:00 White-Ra also thinks Forcefields are too strong against Zerg, so he suggests the following change: Forcefields should have a cooldown similar to the corruptor's corruption ability, rather than being mana based (or simply give the FF ability a long cooldown). His reasoning behind that is that if you pump out sentries early on in the game like most P's do nowadays, you'll quickly save up 200 energy and then with even 5-6 sentries you can have 20+ forcefields which is way too strong. I think that would be pretty much a genius change. If the Protoss really wants to completely split a Zerg army into like 5-6 different pieces they'll almost have to overcommit on sentries, which cost a ton of gas and reduces the dps of their army. Sentries are also quite good vs T, but it's mainly to trap a section of bio to let zealots close in or to block the ramp. Also, overmaking them leaves you quite weak to EMP and isn't nearly as powerful as vs Zerg. This sounds like an amazing idea, make it similar to blink. Cooldown for forcefield sounds like an amazing idea. It should be short enough that you can cast one before the other one goes away.
Then you'd be able to block a ramp offensively or defensively the entire game and ud be able to basically have a permanent wall anywhere u go with just 4 or 5 sentries. A zerg wouldnt even be able to borrow and wait them out. This is not a good idea...
|
On March 29 2011 15:51 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 15:44 Mintastic wrote:On March 29 2011 14:02 iCCup.Nove wrote:On March 29 2011 12:46 teamsolid wrote:http://www.justin.tv/kellymilkies/b/282503920Interview with White-Ra @ 57:00 White-Ra also thinks Forcefields are too strong against Zerg, so he suggests the following change: Forcefields should have a cooldown similar to the corruptor's corruption ability, rather than being mana based (or simply give the FF ability a long cooldown). His reasoning behind that is that if you pump out sentries early on in the game like most P's do nowadays, you'll quickly save up 200 energy and then with even 5-6 sentries you can have 20+ forcefields which is way too strong. I think that would be pretty much a genius change. If the Protoss really wants to completely split a Zerg army into like 5-6 different pieces they'll almost have to overcommit on sentries, which cost a ton of gas and reduces the dps of their army. Sentries are also quite good vs T, but it's mainly to trap a section of bio to let zealots close in or to block the ramp. Also, overmaking them leaves you quite weak to EMP and isn't nearly as powerful as vs Zerg. This sounds like an amazing idea, make it similar to blink. Cooldown for forcefield sounds like an amazing idea. It should be short enough that you can cast one before the other one goes away. Then you'd be able to block a ramp offensively or defensively the entire game and ud be able to basically have a permanent wall anywhere u go with just 4 or 5 sentries. A zerg wouldnt even be able to borrow and wait them out. This is not a good idea...
They can do that anyways with 3 sentries. I'm not saying get rid of the energy, just add a cooldown so that you can't spam so many at once.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
