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Impervious
Canada4200 Posts
On March 23 2011 11:12 pwnasaurus wrote: The amount of ignorance in this thread is absolutely MIND BOGGLING. Some people are beyond saving..... Just remember that, and you'll sleep easier at night. | ||
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KaiserGL
United States18 Posts
On March 23 2011 11:12 pwnasaurus wrote: The amount of ignorance in this thread is absolutely MIND BOGGLING. Have you ever played a single game as protoss? IMO, and I'm sure I'm nowhere near alone, protoss macro is BY FAR the hardest out of the 3 races. You cannot build gateway units without looking at a power field - good luck doing that in the middle of a battle while microing. On top of that, each time you chrono boost, you need to make a concious decision of what you're going to chrono boost, and then do it. This is hard to do instantly, and if you have say 10 gateways spread between 3 bases, and you want to chrono all of them, you have to physically go to the location of each and every one and click on them, a process that takes longer than you seem realize. Try playing toss before you say it's easy mode - unless you're in bronze, IMO toss macro is the hardest of the 3 races due to the factors I mentioned. And I main zerg. :facepalm: Have you played zerg? That is the counter to a VERY specific robo push. This thread was started with regard to the games of July vs MC, with an EXTREMELY different attack, that came much, much sooner. If you try to build hydras for a 6 gate, the toss is going to lol all over you. The correct counter to a 6 gate is speed burrow roaches. The correct counter to a robo push before colossi is hydra ling. Both implement FF, but require different counters. You can't make blanket statements like that "X pro did this, so it is the absolute counter, always". Did you ever consider that Losira is FAR, FAR better than his opponent? Because he is. Pylons provide supply, cost only 100 minerals, produce a warp field, and protoss buildings are warped in without the presence/loss of a worker; You can't really lose, no matter where you place it. I'm not sure what prevents you from setting a hot key to a pylon that you warp units to, but every protoss building other than the nexus and assimilator requires a pylon nearby to power it so it shouldnt be hard to remember where they are. Warping units near a pylon field is not only easy to pull off during any stage of the game, it's easier than setting a rally point and guiding your units safely to their location. In case you didn't know, pressing one of your hotkeys 2 times in a row brings you to the location of whatever you had set to the hot key. Maybe this will make it easier for you to find places to warp your units in. Army set to 1-2, Warp gates set to 4 or something, use 8, 9, and 0 for proxy pylons or expos. Maybe this is difficult for you, but I think its pretty easy to send my army somewhere, press 8/9/0 2 times in a row, press 4 once, and decide on my desired unit composition before pressing 1 twice in a row to go back to my army. The time you lose on chrono boosting is nonexistant due to the fact that anything you chronoboost is completed faster. I don't whine about having to call down mules all game, failing to do so puts me at a disadvantage. Even if you forget to chronoboost while you're battling, it gives you a jump start on whatever u plan to do afterward. I kinda made a habit out of going back to my cc's every minute or so just to spend their energy, and I'd do the same with nexus to chrono boost/queen to spawn larva if I played z/p. Don't you? Come on, choose your battles more wisely if you're going to flame me for "mind boggling" ignorance. Your response even supported my original post because your response was essentially the perfect example of the type of person I mentioned in the last paragraph or two. Try harder plz  | ||
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Noak3
United States236 Posts
On March 22 2011 19:09 CuirassEU wrote: I was thinking about this matter for the last 2 days and still agree on that it mostly affects PvZ. It takes away the dynamic of the game at some points. Especyaly the abbility to block a chocke and end the game at this point, because reinforcements are not comming to the fight. Everyone was thinking about how to fix the Forcefield and after thinking about it maybe its Zerg who need a fix, not the Sentry. What about giving the Roach or/and/ the Zerglings an upgrade on somewhere T2 to Jump down a cliff? I thought about it alot and even dreamed about it...This could make the game very interesting dynamic and also would give the Zerg surrounding abbilitys wich are so often needed and not given due to terrain. I think that the problem can be fixed with some good surrounds and better use of control group hotkeys, which zergs are slowly but surely learning to do. Roaches without forcefields absolutely slaughter a protoss army that doesn't have any aoe, and even a small portion of the roaches that were originally fighting- with the rest cut off with force fields- can still do some serious damage if you're not careful. Yes some upgrades like that would be cool, but first of all it seriously changes the game and second of all you're gonna have to nerf them in some other way to even it out. Having roaches that can jump down cliffs would be like giving sentries armor, health, and a fair amount of DPS. | ||
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Alay
United States660 Posts
However, when they reach a certain point, they go from balanced to just stupid. 10 sentries spamming it down to stasis a battlefield with no real way to actually break them is just too much. The problem is, I don't think it can be addressed without hurting them in the way they are balanced in small numbers. | ||
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Wochtulka
Czech Republic66 Posts
On March 21 2011 02:57 dmillz wrote: Not if they have a proper amount of health. Especially if there was an upgrade available later on that made them unbreakable. This way early game they are still strong but CAN be broken, and late game when the DPS is much higher they will still be useful. That is actually a very good idea to make them breakable at the start but with like 500 hp and some armor for stim rushes to not be so effective and the unbreakable upgrade being for example in twilight concil. | ||
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SecondSandwich
United States319 Posts
Simple change to forcefield: I think a fairly simple change to forcefield that could make a big difference is to shorten a FF lifespan. Perhaps make forcefield last 500-1000ms less time. This would still allow all of the cool and nifty forcefield micro (doughnut, block ramps, etc), but not make it quite as detrimental to the opponent--e.g, all your roaches can still be trapped helplessly on top of each other, but you may be able to retreat before they are "all" dead. It would cause sentries to use up energy slightly faster (=slightly less FF overall), but not really enough to cause major changes to gameplay. Another advantage to this is that it wouldn't require any changes to the programming of the sentry mechanics, just the adjustment of one number. Any input on this? | ||
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2577 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:33 SecondSandwich wrote: Posted this in another thread, but I think it fits better here. :-) Simple change to forcefield: I think a fairly simple change to forcefield that could make a big difference is to shorten a FF lifespan. Perhaps make forcefield last 500-1000ms less time. This would still allow all of the cool and nifty forcefield micro (doughnut, block ramps, etc), but not make it quite as detrimental to the opponent--e.g, all your roaches can still be trapped helplessly on top of each other, but you may be able to retreat before they are "all" dead. It would cause sentries to use up energy slightly faster (=slightly less FF overall), but not really enough to cause major changes to gameplay. Another advantage to this is that it wouldn't require any changes to the programming of the sentry mechanics, just the adjustment of one number. Any input on this? One of forcefields' most important roles is in defending the ramp against early aggression. Your change would be a massive buff to early game all-ins in every *vP matchup. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Sentient
United States437 Posts
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bovineblitz
United States314 Posts
On March 19 2011 20:07 theBOOCH wrote: They stop the opponents ability to micro. I don't think this is a problem in itself, as long as it is something that can be avoided. Basically, it takes good micro to successfully use and successfully avoid forcefields. The impetus is on Protoss to gain an advantage. However, the opposing race does not gain an advantage from successfully avoiding being forcefielded. However, if sentries are seen as an investment (which they are) and a compromise between more powerful units (which they are), their failure to be utilized properly does put the Protoss at a disadvantage. the important question here is "does failure to utilize the investment of sentries put me at as much of a disadvantage as my opponent failing to properly avoid my forcefields." I think the answer to this question might very well be "no" in many circumstances. Really? You miss forcefields in the early/mid game, you lose. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:57 Sentient wrote: If you watch forcefield spam closely, you'll notice that when units get stuck between forcefields, they don't attack anymore. They just sit there and twitch. If the stuck units actually attacked, I don't think we'd this thread would exist. they actually do attack if they are in range and not on move command. what happens a lot is a player will pull his units back once some are trapped and then in THAT case, the trapped unit will just spaz out and try to walk up a wall and not attack. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
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Impervious
Canada4200 Posts
So many times I was down like 40 food, but could chip away at his army to come back to win it thanks to mass sentry spamming lol. I stayed on T1 all the time. I literally have no clue how to use P, except forcefields are sooooooo fun to use! | ||
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bovineblitz
United States314 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:33 SecondSandwich wrote: Posted this in another thread, but I think it fits better here. :-) Simple change to forcefield: I think a fairly simple change to forcefield that could make a big difference is to shorten a FF lifespan. Perhaps make forcefield last 500-1000ms less time. This would still allow all of the cool and nifty forcefield micro (doughnut, block ramps, etc), but not make it quite as detrimental to the opponent--e.g, all your roaches can still be trapped helplessly on top of each other, but you may be able to retreat before they are "all" dead. It would cause sentries to use up energy slightly faster (=slightly less FF overall), but not really enough to cause major changes to gameplay. Another advantage to this is that it wouldn't require any changes to the programming of the sentry mechanics, just the adjustment of one number. Any input on this? gg marauder timings | ||
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purecarnagge
719 Posts
The problem with zergs is simple they are too greedy with drones. A zerg would rather be 8 drones ahead than 8 drones behind. But you cannot tell me that being even drones/probes is bad. Example if Idra would have already had 5 more roaches at there base. They could have done more. Part of the problem is they came out to engage with an inferior force that was going to rely on there rally to sustain/hold off the attack. The protoss is able to stop this. So basically, they drone too much get to greedy and dont' make an army. They have a small army and die. Also by having this army they could have possibly baited the toss into using FF while traveling across the entire map instead of at there natural expansion. so part of the problem is the amount of sentry FF getting put down and part of the problem is zerg being too greedy vs the protoss builds. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On March 29 2011 01:13 purecarnagge wrote: i still think increasing sentry supply or FF energy to 75 is key. Right now protoss if sentry who spams FF alot wins. When in doubt FF everything. The problem with zergs is simple they are too greedy with drones. A zerg would rather be 8 drones ahead than 8 drones behind. But you cannot tell me that being even drones/probes is bad. Example if Idra would have already had 5 more roaches at there base. They could have done more. Part of the problem is they came out to engage with an inferior force that was going to rely on there rally to sustain/hold off the attack. The protoss is able to stop this. So basically, they drone too much get to greedy and dont' make an army. They have a small army and die. Also by having this army they could have possibly baited the toss into using FF while traveling across the entire map instead of at there natural expansion. so part of the problem is the amount of sentry FF getting put down and part of the problem is zerg being too greedy vs the protoss builds. I don't understand your post. You're saying it's zerg's fault for droning too hard, but forcefields are broken and need to be more expensive. Which is it?? "Right now protoss if sentry spams FF alot win." This is absolutely ridiculous. I think you're being a bit too subjective. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On March 29 2011 00:41 Alejandrisha wrote: i think the way you fix them is by making it so units can't get stacked up and stuck in between them. it can work for and against the ff user at random times and takes away from the mechanic. sometimes you trap units you don't mean to trap and sometimes you push away units you don't want to push away. take the idra vs. cruncher game. idra had 5 roaches stacked on one another that could not move or attack... call it "skill" or w/e but that didn't seem very fair and i am a toss user O_O Yeah it's fucking stupid and makes these games sooooo boring to watch, it's much better if you can actually micro back and forth to buy time if you aren't completely ready to defend, but force fields deny micro if you try to hit and run and deny reinforcements if you just run and wait. I guess burrow is a MUST HAVE if there is any possibility of 6gate but I don't know. | ||
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Playguuu
United States926 Posts
Of course after you throw down one FF, the ones after will disappear faster, so to fix that you get a 5 second window to cast all the FF you want before the ones after suffer from diminishing returns. Then the area of those FFs get a 30 second refresh timer after the last one. After 30 seconds if no other FF are used in that area, you get full length FF, otherwise they begin timing out quicker. Really good FF make zerg look silly as MC demonstrated. Split your army in half, kill it for free - Make half unable to move or return fire - Block ramp, free kill on expo, cut production in half because reinforcements at natural are too few to fight effectively. It's a good unit and totally necessary, but it might be a little too good. I'm sure zerg would love a unit at tier 1.5 that makes half your warp gates not work if they are "near" your ramp. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
I can understand the "toss loses to stim timings without FF" to a degree. But that's why stim research time was increased. So is it too much to ask to limit a sentry to one force field at a time? That's still enough to cut things in half or wall of chokes, but it's not enough to completely fill the space between the natural CC and my ramp with fields removing all my troops from the battle until my CC had been destroyed and the toss moved back. | ||
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