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Giantt
Bulgaria82 Posts
Yes of course there is a way to negate any given build the problem is knowing about it. If I invest 450 for 3 extra queens (assume 2 before 7th minute mark is default in 90% of games) and 2 drones=> spores - 250 roughly that is total of 700 minerals + 2 larva + opportunity cost for the 2 drones that has been misplaced if the enemy comes with pure gate. You might imagine the result if a zerg tries to play safe against a build that actually is not comming. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On March 21 2011 23:42 frucisky wrote: @TimeSpiral - FF as a channeled ability solves a lot. But it means that there can be permanent ramp forcefield block prevent zerg reinforcements. How would you address that issue? Directly not allowing ramp FF blocks might be a good idea. There are a lot of risky stuff toss can get away with because they keep FFing the ramp to prevent early Terran attacks. If a player chooses to do something risky, he should be vulnerable to early attacks unlike the state the game is in now. You could solve that by changing the price and duration of forcefield. Instead of 50 energy for a 15 second forcefield you have a 20 energy cast and then the sentry has to expend 2 energy/second to maintain. You could even allow spellcasting by the sentry, so that each sentry can support multiple (though short lived) forcefields. That means protoss could cast even more forcefields with less energy cost (as a 10 second FF is only 40 energy) but on the other hand the forcefields collapse when the opponent takes out your sentry and you lose the DPS sentries offer. Oh.. and for comparison: Sentry DPS is about equal to a marauder vs a light target. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 21 2011 23:42 frucisky wrote: @TimeSpiral - FF as a channeled ability solves a lot. But it means that there can be permanent ramp forcefield block prevent zerg reinforcements. How would you address that issue? Directly not allowing ramp FF blocks might be a good idea. There are a lot of risky stuff toss can get away with because they keep FFing the ramp to prevent early Terran attacks. If a player chooses to do something risky, he should be vulnerable to early attacks unlike the state the game is in now. The offensive FF on your opponent's ramp is such a strange thing to consider. It is not really black and white at all. You have to at least consider that if Protoss is in your natural and you lose because your army could not reinforce due to offensive ramp force fields, had you already lost the game due to other reasons and that tactic just seemed to look like what killed you? But, the combination of Warpgates and ramp blocking with ForceField seems to effectively remove the defender's advantage completely. In fact, it basically removes the defender. Since both Terran and Zerg have reinforcements coming from the main in almost ALL scenarios, they are the most adversely affected by the offensive ramp FF. Protoss can obviously bypass the ramp with reinforcements because of Warpgates. You cannot say, "No FFs on ramps," because that is just silly. So what do you do? I've heard people suggest that you make the Queen massive which sounds good on paper, until you consider the recent VR buff. The Phoenix+VR opener vs. Zerg is borderline right now anyway and making the queen massive may cause serious problems for Zerg. Not allowing FF's on creep is going WAY TOO FAR in the other direction. Sorry ... What if you can only FF middle-ground areas, like ramps, from higher ground than the ramp? This means you cannot waltz in on the low ground and FF your opponents ramp, but you can still FF a ramp you're defending the top of, or happen to get into an offensive position at the top of. You can still block the ramp at the bottom, but similar to needing multiple pylons or bunkers you will need multiple FF's, not just one. Terrible? | ||
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GenZai
France38 Posts
1/ give them HP. so you can micro your way out by focusing the FF that is blocking your units 2/ give a dispel ability to units such as the infestor or ghost. or a new units in HoS. this involve micro to dispel the FF. 3/ the FF should not be casted OVER the head of units. it means you should cast your spell before any unit enter the casting zone. this way you could hold position a unit on your ramp so that the P can block your reinforcement to come protect your b2 and then freekill your b2 and runaway while all your units are blockes in your main. | ||
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Shooks
Australia256 Posts
On March 22 2011 00:22 GenZai wrote: some solution to nerf FF. i'll give 3proposition that can be independent or stackable. 1/ give them HP. so you can micro your way out by focusing the FF that is blocking your units 2/ give a dispel ability to units such as the infestor or ghost. or a new units in HoS. this involve micro to dispel the FF. 3/ the FF should not be casted OVER the head of units. it means you should cast your spell before any unit enter the casting zone. this way you could hold position a unit on your ramp so that the P can block your reinforcement to come protect your b2 and then freekill your b2 and runaway while all your units are blockes in your main. I actually think making FFs have HP is a great idea. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45110 Posts
On March 22 2011 00:10 Giantt wrote: @Severedevil, Yes of course there is a way to negate any given build the problem is knowing about it. If I invest 450 for 3 extra queens (assume 2 before 7th minute mark is default in 90% of games) and 2 drones=> spores - 250 roughly that is total of 700 minerals + 2 larva + opportunity cost for the 2 drones that has been misplaced if the enemy comes with pure gate. You might imagine the result if a zerg tries to play safe against a build that actually is not comming. All initial scouting units should be dead by the 5-6 minute mark (if they're still in the opponent's base), for all races, no? How does Zerg have a harder time scouting so early or preparing for rushes than any other race? The first drone is just as useful as the first probe or scv. Every race is just as in the dark as the others. And actually, a well positioned overlord could be really good at scouting. Yeah, the Zerg will have to sacrifice it and maybe they won't get any good intel, but Terran runs the same risk when they throw down a scan (instead of MULEing), right? And Protoss just plain can't scout at that time, unless he gets down a super fast robo (which puts them behind production of attacking units as well), so all three races consciously need to make a decision to pause in their powering to try and gather some intel. And then when it comes to later in the game, Zergs just need to start dropping changelings all over the place (which we're actually seeing more and more pros do). Sure, they may get sniped quickly, but they're absolutely free. You really can't beat that, especially when comparing it to using Terran energy for scans or being forced to send out your Protoss observers (instead of keeping them at home, for fear of cloaked/ burrowed attacks). So my point is that yes, not knowing what your opponent is doing is absolutely scary, and so you need to be prepared for multiple scenarios and strategize well. And Zerg can prepare just as well as Protoss or Terran can. And sometimes you prepare for a rush that's not coming, or don't prepare for a rush that does come (but that's independent of the race you play). However, every race is in the same boat throughout the game as far as scouting goes. Zerg isn't at a disadvantage *because they can't scout at time x*, because no race can scout at time x. And at time y, when Protoss and Terran can both scout, Zerg can actually scout too. | ||
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annul
United States2841 Posts
On March 19 2011 20:07 theBOOCH wrote: If a player cannot physically outplay an opponent, then all that's left is strategy, something that develops slowly, but is disseminated quickly. Basically everyone would be at just about the same level. every chess player plays at exactly the same level, yeah? On March 19 2011 20:07 theBOOCH wrote: Since time is the most valuable of all resources in any rts game (more on that some other time), i c wut u did thar | ||
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dvide
United Kingdom287 Posts
Also I liked the fungal growth missile  | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45110 Posts
On March 22 2011 00:57 dvide wrote: I'd like to see forcefields be a projectile. So sentries fire a missile that when reaches its target it pops down a forcefield there. It can be relatively fast moving, but that way you'd have some ability to react to your enemy and back-up to prevent your army from being cut in half. Especially as zerg with fast moving units. Baiting forcefields would be more possible by feigning attacks and backing up quickly. Forcefields would require a lot more skill in general to use, but they will still be just as powerful as they are now if they land correctly. Also I liked the fungal growth missile Baiting forcefields is already done though, by sending out just a few infantry units or zerglings early on, to keep the overall sentry energy low. The Protoss player needs to use forcefields, or else the sentries will get sniped (and then the rest of the army could follow in behind the early baiters). If FF becomes a missile, then the first FF placed in the game (at the Protoss's own ramp, as defense against an early roach or marauder bust) would be easily confounded by the opponent. The Protoss needs to perfectly split the opponent's army. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Why are so many people convinced forcefields contributed so definitively to July's loss? The meta game was a 4-gate which July wasn't prepared for because he didn't scout the 4th gate, and he didn't see the expo got cancelled. One of the other games MC went for DTs and did some pretty substantial damage with those. On Shakuras, sure he did cast forcefield at some point in the match - but there was an extended period of time where he was mainly relying on blink micro to keep his stalkers from being destroyed. It isn't as though every game MC built mass sentries and FFed his way to victory... and if there truly was no way for zerg to beat gateway units with FF placement - why would MC have wasted money on blink/DTs? Why would MC have opened Stargate against Ciara on Tal'Darim altar, or pushed with only zealots and stalkers on Meta, if FFs were so good that he'd auto-win if he made sentries? | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
The "MC doughnut" is just fucked stupid. Nice that he is that good, but stupid that this skill ceiling is only available to one side. Boring to watch and boring to play against. I hate to say it but I'm getting sick of watching this game, it is too one sided. | ||
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jacobmarlow
Canada100 Posts
ALSO protoss gateway units suck compared to all other races. They cannot stand on their own. | ||
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Marcus420
Canada1923 Posts
im not a pro by any means but maybe it should be considered! | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45110 Posts
On March 22 2011 01:10 andrewlt wrote: I'd like to see other races get spells as powerful as FF instead of nerfing FF. The last thing SC2 needs right now is another nerf to another skill-discriminating ability. By skill discriminating, I mean an ability that changes a lot depending on the skill of the user. The last thing protoss needs right now is another incentive to go colossus. Agreed. When you say "as powerful as" FF, are you referring to spells that remove the ability to micro? Because Zerg has fungal growth and Terran has concussive shells. Now granted, infestors are far less common (and harder to tech to, in general), than sentries. However, a single FG is far more powerful than a single FF, as the former freezes units and deals damage to that cluster. FFs are only good when used multiple times (often requiring multiple sentries). So infestor and FG are certainly viable options, and note that the Blizzard panel has said many times that they don't want exact equivalences in units and abilities across the board. As for Terrans... well, marauders do far more damage than sentries do (especially with stim), and they're cheaper, so marauders with concussive shells are certainly viable options as well. Again, note that the Blizzard panel has said many times that they don't want exact equivalences in units and abilities across the board. Therefore, I don't think there will be any new Zerg or Terran spell that literally is a forcefield. Concussive shells and fungal growth are close though, especially in the "remove micro" department. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45110 Posts
On March 22 2011 01:19 Marcus420 wrote: Has anyone considered FF as an upgrade at the cyber core? i would make it a fairly cheap upgrade (50/50?)and fairly short duration to get it up. So in instances that you FE, you get FF's instead of really early warpgates. You will also have not as many units when you get warpgates finally up(after FFs) so it would nerf 4gates and 3 gates pretty hard. Unless you want to do a 4 gate without FFs. idk. im not a pro by any means but maybe it should be considered! Protoss would lose to a fast roach rush or marauder push, which was the initial defense necessity for getting out a sentry super early (to FF the Protoss's own ramp, to buy time to get out more units). | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On March 22 2011 01:09 Treehead wrote: GSL/TSL Spoilers + Show Spoiler + Why are so many people convinced forcefields contributed so definitively to July's loss? The meta game was a 4-gate which July wasn't prepared for because he didn't scout the 4th gate, and he didn't see the expo got cancelled. One of the other games MC went for DTs and did some pretty substantial damage with those. On Shakuras, sure he did cast forcefield at some point in the match - but there was an extended period of time where he was mainly relying on blink micro to keep his stalkers from being destroyed. It isn't as though every game MC built mass sentries and FFed his way to victory... and if there truly was no way for zerg to beat gateway units with FF placement - why would MC have wasted money on blink/DTs? Why would MC have opened Stargate against Ciara on Tal'Darim altar, or pushed with only zealots and stalkers on Meta, if FFs were so good that he'd auto-win if he made sentries? Lots of reasons for all of this. First of all force fields aren't "auto win", they are extremely powerful but they also take a high amount of skill to abuse. This is a problem (unfair, imbalanced) because zerg does not have anything close to the same skill ceiling it can abuse. This leaves zerg in a situation of "I hope he isn't godly with his FF", with no skill ceiling of his own to abuse and counter act the FF fields. Burrow is an option but this is a timing window not a skill to abuse, and thus it is very limited. Once observers are out burrow will not due much, and there is no way for zerg to just micro his ass off to make burrow more effective. It just works or doesn't work based on timing, while FF scales with how many sentries you have and more importantly how good you are at placing them. FF add depth to the game by adding a skill set for protoss to use to get him out of situations and to turn situations into a lead, but they only add depth to one side of the match up. They actually reduce depth for the zerg side, where the zerg's range of options is dictated and reduced by the protoss range of options. Completely imbalanced in this way, it is toss's game to lose. All zerg can do is play well while hoping to get lucky. | ||
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Crackensan
United States479 Posts
On March 22 2011 01:29 Treemonkeys wrote: Lots of reasons for all of this. First of all force fields aren't "auto win", they are extremely powerful but they also take a high amount of skill to abuse. This is a problem (unfair, imbalanced) because zerg does not have anything close to the same skill ceiling it can abuse. This leaves zerg in a situation of "I hope he isn't godly with his FF", with no skill ceiling of his own to abuse and counter act the FF fields. Burrow is an option but this is a timing window not a skill to abuse, and thus it is very limited. Once observers are out burrow will not due much, and there is no way for zerg to just micro his ass off to make burrow more effective. It just works or doesn't work based on timing, while FF scales with how many sentries you have and more importantly how good you are at placing them. FF add depth to the game by adding a skill set for protoss to use to get him out of situations and to turn situations into a lead, but they only add depth to one side of the match up. They actually reduce depth for the zerg side, where the zerg's range of options is dictated and reduced by the protoss range of options. Completely imbalanced in this way, it is toss's game to lose. All zerg can do is play well while hoping to get lucky. The idea of a game being decided on an ability, and your opponent to use that ability well doesn't particularly sit well with me. If my opponent fails at using FF, my chances of winning increase, but if he can FF like a boss, my chances of winning decrease. Terran can control space with tanks and vikings, but you can easily walk up and snipe those or deal with them in different ways. Sentries, when snuggled in their ball of doom, are signifigantly harder to deal with, especially when you can FF to protect them, bunch/seperate units into clumps, then vape them all with Colossi. It's an extremely POWERFUL ability, when used right, and to have games decided by P's FF micro is very very odd. Part of me screams imbalance, though, realistically, there are no real imbalances, only problems to be solved, and the current solutions are kinda hard to consitantly fight with (burrow negated by obs). | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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xsevR
United States324 Posts
On March 22 2011 00:27 Shooks wrote: I actually think making FFs have HP is a great idea. I agree, and have thought this for a while. You could even have armor/shield upgrades effect Force Fields, or have a separate upgrade for FF HP. In some sense, it wouldn't even be much of a nerf. If the enemy is set on destroying one forcefield, and you're able to keep replacing it, then youre negating a portion of damage from their army. It would also make for some fun micro situations and seems more fair and balanced overall. Finding the exact value for how strong a Force Field should be, however, is another matter. | ||
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