|
On March 20 2011 00:39 StateOfZerg wrote:
Guys, I am a 3200 SEA , 3500 NA random player. I do not want to be bias to any race but as a player who've played both Zerg and Protoss, I wish to clarify some issues with fellow TL'ers.
First, Forcefield IS indeed too strong a spell. But does that mean it is imbalanced? Maybe. The key in its strength is versatility. Defensively, forcefields ARE required by the protoss to tech up to a comfortable position against Terrans.Forcefields are so strong because of its ability to dissect an entire army.
Many trolls QQ about gateway units being weak, but in fact, it is not the case. In realistic scenarios, DPS per unit area is much more important and stalkers being the tanks they are deal the maximum DPS per unit area over an extended battle due to most of them surviving. Many people often often misconceive that the deathball is strong because of the colossus, but in fact, a stalker ball is one of the strongest armies in SC2. 6 range heavy hp benefits most realistic scenarios. Couple that with sentries splitting effective army size and decreasing DPS per unit area of other races through force field placement.
I have played Protoss against zergs countless times and it is INDEED hard to perfect forcefield placement. BUT is perfect placement really needed? Most times, with a stalker ball, and 6 gate sentry push, I dictate where my battles take place. I set the rules of engagement and positioning of enemy. It doesn't matter whether the zerg has a good arc or a bigger army, all i do is section the front most portion and destroy the enemy part by part.
I really like the Protoss race as it is unique, but guys, Protoss players especially, please admit that forcefield is too versatile of a spell. It prevents repair, it dissects any army which does not have its counters, it prevents reinforcements, prevents scouting, harass and allows the game flow to be controlled by the Protoss. I play Terran and find that Protoss does need defense against early marine marauder pressure, but don't you think forcefield should be more punishing to its user?
IMO, Forcefield should be changed to a spell which can only be placed on empty hexes. It disallows army splitting and rewards planned play. It would also not allow a player like JulyZerg, who saw the push coming from afar to be helpless in reinforcement. July could then use Zergling micro on the ramp to prevent forcefield placement. It becomes a more fair micro battle for both players. One player can then try to deny forcefield placement and the other would have to seek opportunities. Starcraft should be a game which rewards planning and not instant decisions. Warp in is already instant defence and reinforcement. comeon guys, lets not be defensive of our races and admit a tweak to forcefield would result in a better metagame in the future.
I like your arguments a lot, and agree unless mass sentry is scouted FF will dominate matchups as players mimic MC play, but a MMM/roach ball will roll right through protoss w/o ability of dividing up an army (the explicit intention of FF according to blizzard) and you can only divide up army by casting FF ON units. Like you say it's about DPS and MM/RH do much more than any protoss combination per cost/supply. I think much would be solved with a decent zerg scouting unit who has pathetic scouting as is....baring that -
You have to give alternative to be competitive if you can only drop on empty spaces because you can only run once or twice before you run out of FF! - alternative would be provide mid game upgrades to WG units out of Templar Archives. I have not thought about it much but like super duper psyblades and armor upgrades because protoss can't run and can't divide anymore so they will get crushed otherwise.
BTW - if you REALLY wanna see how powerful FF is go watch the game with bleach where MC forces all his MM into a donut hole, about 40, just pushes them all into 1 square, and blasts them with a single shot from col. Got Ghosts?
Everything has a counter and IMO zerg just needs better scouting to counter, not nerf FF.
I always lean on side of buffs rather than nerfs because more abilities the better and more dynamic and complex game is.
Now let's talk about that expensive joke called a Carrier
|
On March 21 2011 15:17 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 14:59 Lochat wrote:
Quite frankly, I'd rather see the warp mechanic remove and Protoss T1 rebalanced, including a nerf or change to FF's... but I simply don't see it happening. Instead Blizzard will keep the mechanic at all costs (See: Removing amulet upgrade from HTs because the warp-in mechanic makes it too strong) I to this day do not understand the design philosophy that blizzard has with warpgates. It is a very small investment and in the early game, reduces build time by 10 seconds and you can warp them in anywhere with pylon power. It makes much more sense from a strategic perspective to give it an advantage with a drawback or else there is no point to not getting them for the small investment and invalidates all reason to change them back into gateways. Why is there even the option to switch back to gateways? In my opinion warpgates should increase the build time but in exchange you can warp in. This gives a choice between if you want gateways for overall faster production, or if you want to warp in for whatever reason such as instant reinforcements or to fortify an undefended expansion. What is your guys take on this?
The game design is that Protoss are supposed to use Warpgates rather than Gateways, but it would be broken to have them from the start, so the unlock is delayed.
Likewise, Terran is supposed to have Orbitals and Zerg is supposed to have Queens; they cost far less than is reasonable if you assume there's meant to be a reasonable choice involved. You would only delay Orbital/Warp/Queen if you're trying to rush out something very specific... and never skip them entirely.
|
On March 21 2011 15:54 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 15:17 R0YAL wrote:On March 21 2011 14:59 Lochat wrote:
Quite frankly, I'd rather see the warp mechanic remove and Protoss T1 rebalanced, including a nerf or change to FF's... but I simply don't see it happening. Instead Blizzard will keep the mechanic at all costs (See: Removing amulet upgrade from HTs because the warp-in mechanic makes it too strong) I to this day do not understand the design philosophy that blizzard has with warpgates. It is a very small investment and in the early game, reduces build time by 10 seconds and you can warp them in anywhere with pylon power. It makes much more sense from a strategic perspective to give it an advantage with a drawback or else there is no point to not getting them for the small investment and invalidates all reason to change them back into gateways. Why is there even the option to switch back to gateways? In my opinion warpgates should increase the build time but in exchange you can warp in. This gives a choice between if you want gateways for overall faster production, or if you want to warp in for whatever reason such as instant reinforcements or to fortify an undefended expansion. What is your guys take on this? The game design is that Protoss are supposed to use Warpgates rather than Gateways, but it would be broken to have them from the start, so the unlock is delayed. Likewise, Terran is supposed to have Orbitals and Zerg is supposed to have Queens; they cost far less than is reasonable if you assume there's meant to be a reasonable choice involved. You would only delay Orbital/Warp/Queen if you're trying to rush out something very specific... and never skip them entirely.
Yeah I see what you are saying, but I still entirely disagree with that philosophy. It just negates so much strategy that could be put into making more specialized builds and distinguishing players styles and such. I don't like the idea of essential components of a race that are very cheap and easy to attain. It blurs play styles together which makes the game less exciting. The more choices the more variety which is best if you ask me. I dunno, but thats my opinion on the matter.
|
Since yesterday I had some ZvP games and people tried MC's builds.
I had a couple of games when I assumed my opponent is going mass gate sentries and just skipped zergling speed and rushed for roach-lair-burrow-claws against a 3wg-nexus-5wg+forge build with many-many sentries.
I was able to delay the initial attempt of the protoss run to my base in the middle of the map and make him turn around after 2 rounds of reinforcements and some burrow micro.
However I also had some games I assumed the same and got raped by various strategies.
Therefore I am pretty sure that the problem is the lack of reliable scouting mechanism for zerg early on rather than mass sentries/collossi/voids/immportal+templar combos being over powered.
Given the current situation scouting for zerg comes no earlier than 7th minute(lair + overlord speed on 2 base) if you rush for it and by that time protoss is just completing DT tech or 4phoenix or 1 void 2 phoenix or mass gate. And it is not quite useful to see it when it is already comming your way.
One of the games between MC and July - the one with the DT-s. July sent an overlord but it died missing the Dark Shrine. That is not lack of skill by him or brilliant play by MC but rather a proof to my thesis.
@R0YAL
Although that is not the topic I support the idea of gateway(decrease build times)-warp gate(increase build times but warp anywhere on power field). It seems like protoss is having it a bit too easy 
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Since I do believe that my thoughts are quite worth thinking about them for a second I'll quote myself from that other post regarding the issue which just got closed.
On March 21 2011 16:51 iNfeRnaL wrote:How can people still not realize that it's not about the fact that spell itself being overpowered but about the fact that there is smart casting? In my opinion if there was no such thing as smart casting (which is simply a big skill-killer) it would be a lot harder to place really good force fields in the short amount of time you do need to place them - as well as it would be a lot easier for the Zerg to dodge those. And voilá there you got your more dynamic micro again. Show nested quote +SC BW is an amazing game because all its spells can be counteracted. Storm dodging. splitting when irradiated, running from dark swarmed units. There is less to be said about forcefields, which are instant and impossible to dodge. Please imagine Templars with smartcast in Broodwar, hooray for the whole screen being covered in Psi Storm with every possible unit on this screen having absolutely no chance but to move from one storm into another. Or 5 Defilers casting perfect dark swarms right onto the entrance of the Terran's mainbase because of smartcast. Or what happens if you have 12 vessels with smartcast. Counter acting is a lot about reaction time - and having to atleast select each sentry manually would give you exactly this time to react, no? Regarding the idea of not being able to put a FF on top of units, sorry but nope, just imagine a burrowed ling on your natural choke which you never knew about and other things that could potentially happen before you have an observer. Way too much abuse potential imo. However, it should really not be possible for a unit to remain "inside" of a forcefield totally immobilized, imo it should get either pushed to one or the other side, which would also solve quite a bit of the issue already.
That's pretty much all I've got to say on the issue.
Please notice however, that despite the fact that while I do want to see Blizzard take a step back - atleast when it comes to this very mechanic, I do no want Blizzard to turn SC2 into BW in new graphics nor do I intend to start ANY discussion that compares Broodwar to SC2, all I did try is to make up a *possible* and in my opinion really obvious solution to the problems we've seen recently. I will not respond to any QQ'ing, however if you have a good argument you're welcome to point out if & where my logic fails me here. 
|
On March 21 2011 17:52 Giantt wrote:Since yesterday I had some ZvP games and people tried MC's builds. I had a couple of games when I assumed my opponent is going mass gate sentries and just skipped zergling speed and rushed for roach-lair-burrow-claws against a 3wg-nexus-5wg+forge build with many-many sentries. I was able to delay the initial attempt of the protoss run to my base in the middle of the map and make him turn around after 2 rounds of reinforcements and some burrow micro. However I also had some games I assumed the same and got raped by various strategies. Therefore I am pretty sure that the problem is the lack of reliable scouting mechanism for zerg early on rather than mass sentries/collossi/voids/immportal+templar combos being over powered. Given the current situation scouting for zerg comes no earlier than 7th minute(lair + overlord speed on 2 base) if you rush for it and by that time protoss is just completing DT tech or 4phoenix or 1 void 2 phoenix or mass gate. And it is not quite useful to see it when it is already comming your way. One of the games between MC and July - the one with the DT-s. July sent an overlord but it died missing the Dark Shrine. That is not lack of skill by him or brilliant play by MC but rather a proof to my thesis. @R0YAL Although that is not the topic I support the idea of gateway(decrease build times)-warp gate(increase build times but warp anywhere on power field). It seems like protoss is having it a bit too easy
Appreciate your experiments and welcome to forums. There are tons of vods showing these hard counters but best to experiment on your own. Indeed the biggest problem for Zerg is early game scouting for this and lots of other things. I don't know how you fix it. Maybe queen can summon a fast bee or something speed like a hallucinated pheonix but with low HP.
|
FF is one of the many reasons I believe ZvP will end up being all about dropping banelings. I already consider baneling/ling a better defense against 4-gate than roaches and drop is easier to tech to than all of the roach upgrades against a 6-gate.
|
|
|
I feel like overlord speed should be pool or roach tech. If you could scout thing easier it would be easier to scout and prepare.
|
On March 21 2011 18:03 iNfeRnaL wrote:Since I do believe that my thoughts are quite worth thinking about them for a second I'll quote myself from that other post regarding the issue which just got closed. Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 16:51 iNfeRnaL wrote:How can people still not realize that it's not about the fact that spell itself being overpowered but about the fact that there is smart casting? In my opinion if there was no such thing as smart casting (which is simply a big skill-killer) it would be a lot harder to place really good force fields in the short amount of time you do need to place them - as well as it would be a lot easier for the Zerg to dodge those. And voilá there you got your more dynamic micro again. SC BW is an amazing game because all its spells can be counteracted. Storm dodging. splitting when irradiated, running from dark swarmed units. There is less to be said about forcefields, which are instant and impossible to dodge. Please imagine Templars with smartcast in Broodwar, hooray for the whole screen being covered in Psi Storm with every possible unit on this screen having absolutely no chance but to move from one storm into another. Or 5 Defilers casting perfect dark swarms right onto the entrance of the Terran's mainbase because of smartcast. Or what happens if you have 12 vessels with smartcast. Counter acting is a lot about reaction time - and having to atleast select each sentry manually would give you exactly this time to react, no? Regarding the idea of not being able to put a FF on top of units, sorry but nope, just imagine a burrowed ling on your natural choke which you never knew about and other things that could potentially happen before you have an observer. Way too much abuse potential imo. However, it should really not be possible for a unit to remain "inside" of a forcefield totally immobilized, imo it should get either pushed to one or the other side, which would also solve quite a bit of the issue already. That's pretty much all I've got to say on the issue. Please notice however, that despite the fact that while I do want to see Blizzard take a step back - atleast when it comes to this very mechanic, I do no want Blizzard to turn SC2 into BW in new graphics nor do I intend to start ANY discussion that compares Broodwar to SC2, all I did try is to make up a *possible* and in my opinion really obvious solution to the problems we've seen recently. I will not respond to any QQ'ing, however if you have a good argument you're welcome to point out if & where my logic fails me here.
at first of course your attempt seems reasonable, the delay you would get from eliminating smart casting would give the opponent time to move around / dodge the force fields.
but in sc2, everything is so goddamn fast, has such clean pathing and is possible to control with 1 control group.
i assume you play sc2, and you play protoss (lol otherway i would be disappointed), how could you possibly force field slings in time without smart casting? they are so incredible fast, in the blink of an eye they are in your army.
speed roaches on creep, stimmed mm, hellions.
everything is soooo fast, you wouldn't be in time to force field by single selection.
|
Can somebody teach me how to micro dodging FFs with roaches and hydras?? Ans: its not possible... =.=... how do u dodge FFs faster than somebody clicking it in range?? but nerfing FFs are definately not an answer.... how would a P be able to deal with T without FFs?? i got no idea....
|
The problem is that the Protoss race as a whole is reliant on forcefields to not die at many points of the game. Nerfing forcefield in isolation screws everything up. I don't disagree that the balance of power with forcefield is wrong, it is the same problem with the Colossus. Colossi and forcefields are so good that everything else that Protoss has, has to be weaker to compensate.
I don't have any answers to fix this. But I sure hope Blizzard does, because stalker/sentry/colossus being the ideal Protoss lategame army in basically all matchups and situations (even more so after amulet nerf goes live) is a bit boring.
|
On March 21 2011 17:52 Giantt wrote:
Since yesterday I had some ZvP games and people tried MC's builds.
I had a couple of games when I assumed my opponent is going mass gate sentries and just skipped zergling speed and rushed for roach-lair-burrow-claws against a 3wg-nexus-5wg+forge build with many-many sentries.
I was able to delay the initial attempt of the protoss run to my base in the middle of the map and make him turn around after 2 rounds of reinforcements and some burrow micro.
However I also had some games I assumed the same and got raped by various strategies.
Therefore I am pretty sure that the problem is the lack of reliable scouting mechanism for zerg early on rather than mass sentries/collossi/voids/immortal+templar combos being over powered.
Given the current situation scouting for zerg comes no earlier than 7th minute(lair + overlord speed on 2 base) if you rush for it and by that time protoss is just completing DT tech or 4phoenix or 1 void 2 phoenix or mass gate. And it is not quite useful to see it when it is already comming your way.
One of the games between MC and July - the one with the DT-s. July sent an overlord but it died missing the Dark Shrine. That is not lack of skill by him or brilliant play by MC but rather a proof to my thesis.
Why would Zerg need to scout the Protoss's main? Some Queens (4-5) and one spore --> safe from DT/air surprises. And once you have the Queens, it doesn't take very much premade spine/ling to be safe from a ground rush. (You can add more after the Protoss moves out, after all.)
The really nasty Protoss aggression plays are two base, because two base allows a fuller variety in builds (and can't be out-macroed off two Zerg bases). But, lo! Two base Protoss allows Zerg time to get fast air units, so they can scout the Protoss main!
Two base AND tech against a one base push might survive, but it really shouldn't. That's staggering greed.
|
On March 21 2011 21:14 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 17:52 Giantt wrote:
Since yesterday I had some ZvP games and people tried MC's builds.
I had a couple of games when I assumed my opponent is going mass gate sentries and just skipped zergling speed and rushed for roach-lair-burrow-claws against a 3wg-nexus-5wg+forge build with many-many sentries.
I was able to delay the initial attempt of the protoss run to my base in the middle of the map and make him turn around after 2 rounds of reinforcements and some burrow micro.
However I also had some games I assumed the same and got raped by various strategies.
Therefore I am pretty sure that the problem is the lack of reliable scouting mechanism for zerg early on rather than mass sentries/collossi/voids/immortal+templar combos being over powered.
Given the current situation scouting for zerg comes no earlier than 7th minute(lair + overlord speed on 2 base) if you rush for it and by that time protoss is just completing DT tech or 4phoenix or 1 void 2 phoenix or mass gate. And it is not quite useful to see it when it is already comming your way.
One of the games between MC and July - the one with the DT-s. July sent an overlord but it died missing the Dark Shrine. That is not lack of skill by him or brilliant play by MC but rather a proof to my thesis.
Why would Zerg need to scout the Protoss's main? Some Queens (4-5) and one spore --> safe from DT/air surprises. And once you have the Queens, it doesn't take very much premade spine/ling to be safe from a ground rush. (You can add more after the Protoss moves out, after all.) The really nasty Protoss aggression plays are two base, because two base allows a fuller variety in builds (and can't be out-macroed off two Zerg bases). But, lo! Two base Protoss allows Zerg time to get fast air units, so they can scout the Protoss main!Two base AND tech against a one base push might survive, but it really shouldn't. That's staggering greed.
No, 2 base protoss 6gate timing push is designed specifically to counter muta build, if it is done well, it comes to your gate before your mutas arrive.
Every zerg knows that you need to scout the protoss between 5 & 6 min, because that's the moment where he commit to something. You don't have overlord speed nor muta at 6min.
|
I don't know how to balance it but being able to cast infinite forcefields on an opposing zergs/terrans ramp and deny them being able to save expansions from early pressure is pretty tough.
Perhaps give them a HP value so atleast they have to target them down for a shortwhile which would still help out the protoss by wasting dps time of their oponents?
Or make it not castable on creep or maybe just on ramps at all.. but then u need to wall off with building + forcefield at top to block ramps vs terran which is probably not going to save you as the marauders can just destroy ur building making the wall off with just a few volleys.
|
Increasing the ability to scout is probably the easiest "fix" that might even out things a bit. If you go the route of changing the forcefields it could mean heavy implications on all matchups while better means to scout would only mean players can adjust faster to what their opponent is doing.
|
On March 21 2011 22:33 Phats wrote:
I don't know how to balance it but being able to cast infinite forcefields on an opposing zergs/terrans ramp and deny them being able to save expansions from early pressure is pretty tough.
Perhaps give them a HP value so atleast they have to target them down for a shortwhile which would still help out the protoss by wasting dps time of their oponents?
Or make it not castable on creep or maybe just on ramps at all.. but then u need to wall off with building + forcefield at top to block ramps vs terran which is probably not going to save you as the marauders can just destroy ur building making the wall off with just a few volleys.
Or they could give each sentry diminishing return on Force fields. within say X seconds every force field casted by a sentry will have less duration than the prior one. You can block ramps still. but you better be hell good with your sentry micro on picking which sentries are on Diminishing return which ones aren't
|
I'm hesitant to join in on this thread. There seems to be very little discussion going on here.
But I think this is a topic that could be discussed and fleshed out. A few thoughts in regard to the comments on this thread already:
GSL Spoilers
+ Show Spoiler +(a) MC crushed July. He actually made July look like a scrub, which is crazy ...
(b) All non-Protoss players have had their assess burned by FF so many times. This match is what is commonly referred to as "the straw that broke the camels back." It is really not that difficult to see why it is a hot-button issue right now.
(c) Everyone loves this game, and feels creative, and therefore offers their ideas to change design elements. While most would think the vast majority here are not "qualified" to do so, the people offering suggestions are certainly entitled to do so and you can rest assured that these people are not on Blizzard's balancing team, lol. Blizzard could be inspired by any one of our comments. And if that happens, it would be implemented in a way that was considered "fair."
(d) This game should be hard. But should there be so many situations where it is impossible? I'm talking about straight up build order wins.
PROS ABUSE THIS GAME
That is what they do, and they should. They do whatever it takes to win, and as the Blizzard team has said, if there is a whole in the game, even if it is a tiny one, the pros will drive a truck through it.
SPOILERS (sorry ...)+ Show Spoiler +
MC just said, hmmm, everyone wants gateway buffs? Really? You guys think the Colossus and the Kamulet are OP, ha. Nonsense. I'll win the GSL with nothing but Gateway units. Hahahahaha.
Obviously I'm being a little "tongue and cheek" there but it really did seem like he was just laughing all the way ...
ForceField is broken, but Blizzard will fix it. They will fix it with help from the community. Tons of ideas have been thrown around, and tons of examples exist in high level games all over the place. I don't know what the fix is, but the ideas I'm drawn mostly to are the ones that change the spell into a channeled ability:+ Show Spoiler +
(a) The Sentry must maintain the forcefield, one at a time.
(b) It can still be smart and insta-cast.
(c) If the Sentry maintaining the FF is killed, the FF disappears.
|
@TimeSpiral - FF as a channeled ability solves a lot. But it means that there can be permanent ramp forcefield block prevent zerg reinforcements. How would you address that issue?
Directly not allowing ramp FF blocks might be a good idea. There are a lot of risky stuff toss can get away with because they keep FFing the ramp to prevent early Terran attacks. If a player chooses to do something risky, he should be vulnerable to early attacks unlike the state the game is in now.
|
If you guys want to see a mid-game Protoss completely solved by Zerg, check out
+ Show Spoiler +the ace series of the finals of the GCPL- Sen vs. Naniwa on Metalopolis (game three iirc).
Constant aggression, poking, harrassment, drop play, etc. so that you never have to engage the entirety of the stronger Protoss army head on. That's the way Zerg should be played. More importantly, it's another solution to current forcefields without a silly nerf (though seriously, there have been so many answers given already that people just don't feel like trying, that it's getting kind of frustrating to read these posts).
+ Show Spoiler +Naniwa would get up a few nice forcefields and it would cut some of the Zerg armies pretty well (which it's supposed to do, no QQ required), but then Sen would be dealing damage elsewhere, like taking out the third base or dropping in the main.
Quite frankly, the Zerg should be using their speed and ability to re-max to put constant pressure everywhere. Micro-intensive? You bet it is. Does it work really well against Protoss armies, which are obviously less mobile? Hell yeah. Is a Protoss player supposed to really keep 6 sentries and a small ball of units that can actually deal significant damage in each of his bases and out on the map just to make sure he'll never get harrassed anywhere? A few cannons won't solve a true doom drop (or a decent mutalisk harrass), nor will a single round of warp-in units. Poke poke poke, aggression, harrassment, attack attack attack.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
