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On March 21 2011 08:47 proot wrote:
I don't see how an ability that only has one side to the equation is not considered overpowered. Look at BW and you see there are critical spells that come around the same tier for each race that counteract the enemy race:
Irradiate vs dark swarm
EMP vs stasis
Micro vs storm
Forcefield is a tier 1 spell that has no counter in the zerg's arsenal and an expensive counter in the terran arsenal. That said, it basically relies entirely on the protoss players ability to set them up and is independent of enemy micro. I've heard "OMG AMAZING FORCEFIELDS" so many times by casters now, it seems like the norm. Take a shot for every time you hear that in a pvz/t match and you'll be rushed for alcohol poisoning in no time.
That and marine micro. Click+H+Click+H+Click+H+Click+H. SO GOOOOOOOOOD.
I'm exaggerating, of course. I'm not nearly comfortable enough with marines to do the gosugosu click+h. Or FFs. My micro sucks, BUT pros' micro skills don't.
One-sided spells suck. If Fungal changes so that it becomes a spell you can micro against, that's an improvement (plus the increased DPS cost of not dodging it = probably the best balancing move Blizzard's made). FFs are basically an 'Oh welp you got me guess imma die now' vZ. vT they serve a very clear and legitimate purpose of 'pleasedontdieireallywannanotdie.'
While FF sucks, I said before that you can't fundamentally retool the Protoss race and remove FF until HotS, but you can give Zerg an answer before then. The options lie in either making Burrow hatch tech (with the side effect of making Baneling Bombs/Roaches more viable early game) or greatly reducing the cost of drops (with the side effect of... more drops). I don't think either would be all that bad. For as one who has played/is playing Zerg/Terran, fuck DTs. I think it only karmic justice if cloaked units could hit back against this annoying Sentryu push.
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On March 21 2011 08:47 proot wrote:
I don't see how an ability that only has one side to the equation is not considered overpowered. Look at BW and you see there are critical spells that come around the same tier for each race that counteract the enemy race:
Irradiate vs dark swarm
EMP vs stasis
Micro vs storm
Forcefield is a tier 1 spell that has no counter in the zerg's arsenal and an expensive counter in the terran arsenal. That said, it basically relies entirely on the protoss players ability to set them up and is independent of enemy micro. I've heard "OMG AMAZING FORCEFIELDS" so many times by casters now, it seems like the norm. Take a shot for every time you hear that in a pvz/t match and you'll be rushed for alcohol poisoning in no time.
How does that logically follow? Graviton beam has only "one side of the equation" is that OP? There are many spells in sc2 which are "one side of the equation" as much as FF, EMP for example, as with EMP the way to reduce the efficacy of FF is with good unit positioning (not even mentioning burrow).
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how come everytime a protoss user wins against a zerg there is a huge post about how imba protoss is? jesus christ just play the game and let blizzard handle game balance
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On March 21 2011 09:16 storm44 wrote:
how come everytime a protoss user wins against a zerg there is a huge post about how imba protoss is? jesus christ just play the game and let blizzard handle game balance
Blizzard goes to the community a lot for balance lol. Posts like these COULD matter more than some think.
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maybe someone have posted this idea before me, but if you could attack the force field, lets say it got 200-300 HP, it wouldnt be as strong in choke block situations as now but still usefull?
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@V6, as someone as mentioned before, HP does not solve the problem. MMM with stim will break forcefields with ridiculous ease leaving protoss hanging early game.
To all people saying burrow works. Tbh, burrow only prevents your units from taking damage (and regen some HP). Burrowing during a 6 gate push means the Protoss army has a 15 sec free reign over your base. Imo, if tunneling claws came default with roaches once burrow is research, it could fix a lot of problems.
And we could see much more burrow movement in Zerg play!
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Suggestion for force field, since the main problem is with the ramp block in ZvP. I've seen this around alot so I don't claim it's my idea originally, but just make Queens massive. I know it might create problems with Void Rays, but that is something that could be changed somehow, and I don't see this being a real problem. It would also create a really cool option of using queen bombs on force fields.
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On March 21 2011 12:50 ClutchSC wrote:
Suggestion for force field, since the main problem is with the ramp block in ZvP. I've seen this around alot so I don't claim it's my idea originally, but just make Queens massive. I know it might create problems with Void Rays, but that is something that could be changed somehow, and I don't see this being a real problem. It would also create a really cool option of using queen bombs on force fields.
Or even give queens an anti forcefield spell either way it would allow zergs to have a counter against a strong push with FFs. I definently like the idea of the queen getting some anti forcefield treatment just because of the slowness off creep, I think it's about the fairest idea I've seen Queens for Defensive forcefield elimination and ultras for offensive forcefield elimination.
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On March 21 2011 09:14 HuHEN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:47 proot wrote:
I don't see how an ability that only has one side to the equation is not considered overpowered. Look at BW and you see there are critical spells that come around the same tier for each race that counteract the enemy race:
Irradiate vs dark swarm
EMP vs stasis
Micro vs storm
Forcefield is a tier 1 spell that has no counter in the zerg's arsenal and an expensive counter in the terran arsenal. That said, it basically relies entirely on the protoss players ability to set them up and is independent of enemy micro. I've heard "OMG AMAZING FORCEFIELDS" so many times by casters now, it seems like the norm. Take a shot for every time you hear that in a pvz/t match and you'll be rushed for alcohol poisoning in no time. How does that logically follow? Graviton beam has only "one side of the equation" is that OP? There are many spells in sc2 which are "one side of the equation" as much as FF, EMP for example, as with EMP the way to reduce the efficacy of FF is with good unit positioning (not even mentioning burrow).
Well duh, not EVERY spell, I said critical spells - those that can change the entire tide of the battle with their casts. And before you call me out on changing the tide of battle, every spell caster can do it with a ton of them(except corruptors, corruptors are bad) so it takes some judgement. Graviton isn't designed as a powerhouse spell like forcefield is.
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As a protoss player I will admit that a lot of the arguments seem valid, and there might be a possible imbalance there, but those matches specifically do not indicate imbalance to me.
Quite honestly, I'd rather have the game more balanced around the idea of forcefield not being changed, maybe some other part of the sentry is changed, but not the forcefield it's self. It's like the energy upgrade debate, I'm not in favor it from a game play perspective. Warping in storms is fun as hell, I get that it can be problematic, but it's just really damn fun to do. Forcefields are one of the most rewarding and fun spells to use in the game, not being able to use them as much seems like another nerf that would make the game more bland for me personally.
I do like the queen to massive idea, probably something worth testing out, and the forcefield changes as well. I could be wrong, the game might not change much from the changes as far as the fun factor goes, but altering one of my favorite spells makes me nervous.
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On March 21 2011 08:40 goiflin wrote:Can someone find the timings at which MC hit with his 6 gates? I want to check something, but I haven't the capability to stream the matches again to find out for myself  Show nested quote +people say force fields break the game but ive done some test on this.
what i did was play 20 games, 10 with sentry and ff / 10 with no sentry and ff
and i did this against a terran who was told to 3 racks.
ok what happened was that in the 10 games where i had ff i was able to stay alive and push the terran back.\
but in the 10 games i played with out ff i got just completely bent over by the M and M
now if this shows anything it shows that both yes FF is strong but also that it is needed for protoss to live.
i do feel tho if FF get removed or changed to much it will make playing protoss really hard I would hope that most people realize how much FF is needed against terran agression when they suggest changes to it. I don't think it needs to be changed, personally, but I really do hope people aren't that shortsighted 
All you have to do is watch season 2 how Nestea shut it down. By making mutas you force MC into not making enough sentires to matter either via stalker production or stargate. Also, like many have said borrow roach too. Both July utterly failed to do.
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On March 21 2011 13:27 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 08:40 goiflin wrote:Can someone find the timings at which MC hit with his 6 gates? I want to check something, but I haven't the capability to stream the matches again to find out for myself people say force fields break the game but ive done some test on this.
what i did was play 20 games, 10 with sentry and ff / 10 with no sentry and ff
and i did this against a terran who was told to 3 racks.
ok what happened was that in the 10 games where i had ff i was able to stay alive and push the terran back.\
but in the 10 games i played with out ff i got just completely bent over by the M and M
now if this shows anything it shows that both yes FF is strong but also that it is needed for protoss to live.
i do feel tho if FF get removed or changed to much it will make playing protoss really hard I would hope that most people realize how much FF is needed against terran agression when they suggest changes to it. I don't think it needs to be changed, personally, but I really do hope people aren't that shortsighted All you have to do is watch season 2 how Nestea shut it down. By making mutas you force MC into not making enough sentires to matter either via stalker production or stargate. Also, like many have said borrow roach too. Both July utterly failed to do.
If it was nestea in the finals, he would have done a way better job holding off those attacks and i guarantee you zerg wouldnt be screaming imbalance, because of 1 finals suddenly the whole zerg community is up in arms about how imbalanced it is, when july didnt even play that well. I can agree that the community as a whole agreed that forcefields were a strong spell before but i rarely saw anyone scream imbalance, its 1 finals people and the zerg didnt even play that well. I know its nice to have something cry about in terms of imbalance but why not try and figure out ways to stop it (like you did with 2 rax all ins) instead of making 100 posts about FF imbalance. Protoss gateway units would need to be changes drastically if FF received a significant nerf and you know what the same people would still be complaining.
The one suggestion i did like was to make Forcefields last slightly less time on creep , like 10-12 seconds instead of 15, that would be reasonable.
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 21 2011 09:23 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 09:16 storm44 wrote:
how come everytime a protoss user wins against a zerg there is a huge post about how imba protoss is? jesus christ just play the game and let blizzard handle game balance Blizzard goes to the community a lot for balance lol. Posts like these COULD matter more than some think.
Te amount of times i have seen a mod post "These are not the bnet forums, if you have suggestions about game design post them there" makes me think otherwise.
The amount of FF threads are starting to get a bit annoying; A lot of people are overlooking the serious mistakes that July made; also the fact that MC is on a completely different level of skill makes it a really tough argument.. I mean he is very close to being the first SC2 bonjwa - and July is just nowhere near that level..
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First id like to state that FF should not be removed from the game. Period.
Second, an ability that disables the use of micro is bad. In sc2 damage per area ratio is very important, FF's can cut armies into sections reducing damage done to the Protoss army significantly while in turn picking off units essentially for free. There is nothing the other player can do about it. However if FF is tweeked so that it cannot be placed in an area where a unit resides, it would fix everything that people see is a problem with the FF. Players could position units on the ramp so it cannot be force fielded, which is a strategic play that rewards a more skilled player. Additionally it would prevent mindless FF spamming to cut armies into sections and picking them off, but instead strategically placing them to create chokes or cut off retreat paths. This single change would promote more micro on both sides.
Could anyone please try to point out any negative thoughts regarding this? I honestly cannot come up with anything.
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Personally, as a master Protoss player, I do think FF is a problem, but there is a huge issue... it is there to solve a bigger problem.
Protoss gateway units suck. Badly. They also scale the worst with +armor +attack upgrades, such that as the game goes on the weaker the weakest T1 units become in an actual fight.
The solution? Sentries. FF and Guardian shield make up for the inept combat abilities of zealots and stalkers, this leaves Protoss in a reasonable spot to defend early game.
But what if we removed FF? Protoss couldn't defend early pushes reasonably at all.
What if we buffed T1 Protoss units and remove sentries? 4-gates would go from being really strong to completely broken, due to the warp-in mechanic.
Quite frankly, I'd rather see the warp mechanic remove and Protoss T1 rebalanced, including a nerf or change to FF's... but I simply don't see it happening. Instead Blizzard will keep the mechanic at all costs (See: Removing amulet upgrade from HTs because the warp-in mechanic makes it too strong)
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The best solution that I've seen so far is the increase of energy of FF and increase the sentry warp-in energy. That allows warp-in FF and overall less FF when energy goes up.
People have to remember that sentry do incredibly low DPS and costs 100 gas to have. They are essential in early game and warp-in guaranteed defense is critical for protoss to survive any sort of early aggression.
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On March 20 2011 02:35 Zelniq wrote:
Arghhh this is driving me crazy
Everyone keeps focusing on the FF's when the only reason July kept losing was because he was going for the wrong things, in the wrong order. he kept going for hydras, either making them or making a blind hydra den and delaying Burrow or not getting it at all. It's really simple to stop all the attacks, you get roaches and burrow and that completely nullifies any amount of force field godliness whatever. Zerg simply does not have enough gas to go hydra den + overseer + burrow + roach speed all when lair finishes, you have to choose wisely and he kept choosing a blind hydra den when there were no signs of any air, instead of going burrow blindly, which is what you absolutely need to do unless you scout indications that he wont be doing a warpgate timing
Zelniq has the right idea people. Forcefields aren't fundamentally broken, it just kinda needs a really specific counter-action.
I do wonder if a quick cooldown (i.e. 3-5 seconds) would make the game more interesting. Probably a protoss needs slightly more accurate/efficient forcefields and bring the skill ceiling up?
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Forcefields are necessary to lower the opponent's armies dps in the way the game is currently balanced with sentries actually being a pretty big investment. The problem, from a spectators point of view, is that they're not reducing the opposing armies dps - they're removing it. When good FFs split a zerg army, maybe 1/5 (if that) of their army is able to dps into units which can regen shields - effectively killing nothing. The unit "trade" is shifting from trading combat units for combat units, to combat units for sentry energy. Trade enough times, and the zerg doesn't have a large enough army to combat even the low energy sentries/stalker/zealot.
Before raising my pitchfork and lighting my torch though, I'd really like to see a detailed valuation of how much a FF is actually worth in battle - easier said than done. I think that would shed a lot of light onto the situation for whether it's balanced or not.
Most importantly, they don't make the game more interesting to watch. Even watching a 1 sided battle can be fun as long as there's lasers and explosions and acid and a player outwitted his opponent. Watching 4/5 of a zergs army moving erratically behind a forcefield unable to fight while commentators scream "AZMZING FORCEFIELDS BEST I'VE EVER SEEN" is pretty disappointing, in my opinion of course.
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As a toss player, it's SO rewarding to use FF effectively, cause I've practiced really hard at being able to use them properly. As i'm sure it's equally as rewarding to FG an army, or EMP a whole bunch of *gasp* sentries! jk/jk
Genius' in his recently play vs MVP in GSL up/down, i found his FF's to be a bit ineffective and wasteful at times. Not all players are MC with FF's. Infact no one is.
IMO, doesn't seem fair to base an argument of a broken mechanic, because a player is freakishly good at abusing it. Dunno if Blizzard could predict an MC when making SC2 hehe.
But i'm only a gold player, so opinion is fairly jaded
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On March 21 2011 14:59 Lochat wrote:
Quite frankly, I'd rather see the warp mechanic remove and Protoss T1 rebalanced, including a nerf or change to FF's... but I simply don't see it happening. Instead Blizzard will keep the mechanic at all costs (See: Removing amulet upgrade from HTs because the warp-in mechanic makes it too strong)
I to this day do not understand the design philosophy that blizzard has with warpgates. It is a very small investment and in the early game, reduces build time by 10 seconds and you can warp them in anywhere with pylon power. It makes much more sense from a strategic perspective to give it an advantage with a drawback or else there is no point to not getting them for the small investment and invalidates all reason to change them back into gateways. Why is there even the option to switch back to gateways? In my opinion warpgates should increase the build time but in exchange you can warp in. This gives a choice between if you want gateways for overall faster production, or if you want to warp in for whatever reason such as instant reinforcements or to fortify an undefended expansion.
What is your guys take on this?
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