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On March 21 2011 03:26 StateOfZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 03:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 03:11 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 02:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 02:47 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 01:39 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote:
i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts. Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass. IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore. The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage. As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals. Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg. In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs. In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered). In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks. There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user. July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period. It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-' Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all. Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game. As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries. Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush. If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield. In game one, MC cancelled the nexus at 80-90%. July was actively scouting but got pushed out by MC's sentries. He left 1 zergling at the xel naga outside MC's base and had 35-40 secs to prepare. He laid down 2 spines which were halfway done when MC reached. July also had 1 round of units which were of equal value to MC's army but sectioned off by forcefields. Eventually having roaches and lings not attacking kept most of MC's units alive. Mind you, MC pushed out with pure sentries and 1-2 stalkers. Warp in reinforcements were then mostly zealots and stalkers. Had july made units in prep for MC's attack blindly, MC could've let the nexus get up and be on 2 base against july. If july expands, MC can then retaliate and force a cancel on July's third. Being without creep and behind in economy does not play well for 2 FE. Its impossible for a zerg to hold a third anyway if MC just forcefields the ramp. It would be auto loss from then on. The circumstances were much more complex than you would have imagined. double FE only works if the third is sneaked in or defend able, which is not. I explained Zerg's scouting ability to quell the people saying MC OVERPOWERED july hands down. I stated it to show the lack of options July had in the situation. =) MC letting the second nexus finish would have barely been a beneficial move, because he had been cutting probes for so long. He had been only producing attacking units from his 4gate to the point that he was almost all-in. He had to make something happen, and July just needed to stop whatever pressure MC needed to apply. July was far ahead in economy, but that was because July had been power-droning and MC had cut so many probes. To make an attack like MC's work, Protoss has to take a big risk. If it doesn't work, the Protoss can't recover. It's certainly worth throwing down an extra spine or two or getting a few extra units if you're unsure as to what your opponent is doing. Especially if you can eventually get burrow or mutalisks (two other counters to forcefields), which would let you power-drone in the mid game. Yes yes, MC has been cutting probes and it would not be beneficial if he let it finish. But, July doesn't know that. He doesn't know what you and I know. MC could've been probing like a madman and maymard 11 probes the moment the nexus finishes and july is f**ked. I have been saying this over and over again, try to see it in view of Julyzerg's perspective. His hands are tied behind the whole series
At the same time, MC doesn't know what July is doing (assuming decent scout denial by slings and queens). MC decided to get aggressive. He could have been passive and powered up. July decided to be passive and powered up. He could have made a lot more units. It goes both ways. July lost because he didn't have anything to stop the rush.
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would love if they gave force fields health, like 200, with an upgrade to increase its health
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On March 21 2011 03:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 03:26 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 03:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 03:11 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 02:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 02:47 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 01:39 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote:
i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts. Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass. IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore. The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage. As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals. Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg. In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs. In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered). In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks. There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user. July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period. It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-' Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all. Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game. As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries. Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush. If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield. In game one, MC cancelled the nexus at 80-90%. July was actively scouting but got pushed out by MC's sentries. He left 1 zergling at the xel naga outside MC's base and had 35-40 secs to prepare. He laid down 2 spines which were halfway done when MC reached. July also had 1 round of units which were of equal value to MC's army but sectioned off by forcefields. Eventually having roaches and lings not attacking kept most of MC's units alive. Mind you, MC pushed out with pure sentries and 1-2 stalkers. Warp in reinforcements were then mostly zealots and stalkers. Had july made units in prep for MC's attack blindly, MC could've let the nexus get up and be on 2 base against july. If july expands, MC can then retaliate and force a cancel on July's third. Being without creep and behind in economy does not play well for 2 FE. Its impossible for a zerg to hold a third anyway if MC just forcefields the ramp. It would be auto loss from then on. The circumstances were much more complex than you would have imagined. double FE only works if the third is sneaked in or defend able, which is not. I explained Zerg's scouting ability to quell the people saying MC OVERPOWERED july hands down. I stated it to show the lack of options July had in the situation. =) MC letting the second nexus finish would have barely been a beneficial move, because he had been cutting probes for so long. He had been only producing attacking units from his 4gate to the point that he was almost all-in. He had to make something happen, and July just needed to stop whatever pressure MC needed to apply. July was far ahead in economy, but that was because July had been power-droning and MC had cut so many probes. To make an attack like MC's work, Protoss has to take a big risk. If it doesn't work, the Protoss can't recover. It's certainly worth throwing down an extra spine or two or getting a few extra units if you're unsure as to what your opponent is doing. Especially if you can eventually get burrow or mutalisks (two other counters to forcefields), which would let you power-drone in the mid game. Yes yes, MC has been cutting probes and it would not be beneficial if he let it finish. But, July doesn't know that. He doesn't know what you and I know. MC could've been probing like a madman and maymard 11 probes the moment the nexus finishes and july is f**ked. I have been saying this over and over again, try to see it in view of Julyzerg's perspective. His hands are tied behind the whole series At the same time, MC doesn't know what July is doing (assuming decent scout denial by slings and queens). MC decided to get aggressive. He could have been passive and powered up. July decided to be passive and powered up. He could have made a lot more units. It goes both ways. July lost because he didn't have anything to stop the rush.
Like I said, MC was controlling the game. FF negates what July had early game. Did u know in game 1 July had more units out than MC and even had 2 spines up in the first battle and yet got rolfstomped before the sentries died? Please, I know u want to discredit July, but really, if you were in his situation and was playing blind against a protoss you would reconsider your opinions. The fact is , protoss is controlling the metagame and zerg is too reactionary to not have scouting options. If both players play blind, zerg is definitely the one at a disadvantage.
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On March 21 2011 03:32 Xinder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 03:31 freetgy wrote:
TSL3 Game 1 MC wins without Forcefields pure Zealot/Stalker that's a terrible example. Ciara is no where near July's skill lol.
well MC didn't even lose a single unit, that was the point, while people here QQ about forcefields, he showed if Zerg doesn't prepare, they are going to die without Forcefields too.
thus proving it isn't FF that is the problem to begin with but the timing of building units and amount defending the base.
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On March 21 2011 03:46 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 03:32 Xinder wrote:On March 21 2011 03:31 freetgy wrote:
TSL3 Game 1 MC wins without Forcefields pure Zealot/Stalker that's a terrible example. Ciara is no where near July's skill lol. well MC didn't even lose a single unit, that was the point, while people here QQ about forcefields, he showed if Zerg doesn't prepare, they are going to die even without Forcefields thus proving it isn't FF that is the problem to begin with but the timing of building units and amount defending the base.
lol that was more like the scouting problem of zerg. You can see the FF problem in game 2's final clash. With a lack of scouting options, a zerg like Ciara has no idea when to drone or when to produce units. I know he looks very bad as a player but he isn't. He just couldn't get enough info on whats MC doing and in the meantime its more worthwhile to drone
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burrow or mutalisks (two other counters to forcefields)
mutalisks, the counter to forcefields? lol
If you try to make mutalisks to help against the forcefields in a 4 or 6gate timing push, you lose so hard you get demoted back to bronze. 
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The general consensus seems to be that its way too good in the hands of a very high-level Protoss against Zerg, but its essentially a must for ANY Protoss against the marine bioball.
I wouldnt touch FF too much, maybe make it a bit shorter in duration, but Zerg def. needs to find a way to cope, or else some counter-mechanic needs to be added.
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i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts.
Yes, listen to this. If you feel you must suggest a change, take into account how that change affects every element of every matchup at every stage of the game. How does it affect the Ps ability to safely expand? How does it help P to tech safely? Does it allow P to tech or expand to safely? How will your change make the game more fair? How does it affect the opponent on the battlefield, etc. Changing forcefields is never going to "fix" Zerg, so stop trying to make this thread about that.
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On March 21 2011 03:49 StateOfZerg wrote:
lol that was more like the scouting problem of zerg. You can see the FF problem in game 2's final clash. With a lack of scouting options, a zerg like Ciara has no idea when to drone or when to produce units. I know he looks very bad as a player but he isn't. He just couldn't get enough info on whats MC doing and in the meantime its more worthwhile to drone
well call it a scouting issue makes alot more sense then calling FF imba.
and that is also the point, Protoss does have even less scouting information unless observers are out, which comes way later.
i as protoss would like to chronoboost always Nexus, but i can't cause i "would" die to aggressiv openings. See how the possibility of aggression effects protoss gameplay?
Maybe Zerg needs to make sure not to die early on? they can drone like hard when they have the necessary information.
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In my opinion FF's should have a small (1 sec?) casting time. They should probably have an animation before they're placed, so that the opponent can react to them in advance.
That way placing them would require more skill and a skilled opponent would be able to counter them by fast micro.
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On March 21 2011 04:06 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 03:49 StateOfZerg wrote:
lol that was more like the scouting problem of zerg. You can see the FF problem in game 2's final clash. With a lack of scouting options, a zerg like Ciara has no idea when to drone or when to produce units. I know he looks very bad as a player but he isn't. He just couldn't get enough info on whats MC doing and in the meantime its more worthwhile to drone well call it a scouting issue makes alot more sense then calling FF imba. and that is also the point, Protoss does have even less scouting information unless observers are out, which comes way later. i as protoss would like to chronoboost always Nexus, but i can't cause i "would" die to aggressiv openings. See how the possibility of aggression effects protoss gameplay? Maybe Zerg needs to make sure not to die early on? they can drone like hard when they have the necessary information.
I said in my earlier post and I say it again. In PvZ, Protoss is the one dictating the game and Zerg is too much of a reactionary race. With both players being blind, Protoss is still at the advantage because the burden is on the Zerg player to find out what the protoss is doing and counter it. Saying Protoss has no early scout doesn't really prove anything.
And yes Zerg can make units to prevent dying early on. But if a protoss decides to turtle from the start with FF, Zerg just lost the game. Besides the only aggressive options of early aggression from the Zerg is a 6 pool or roach all-in, which is no-where close in effectiveness to a 4 gate. Especially with wall-in and FF protection preventing it.
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On March 21 2011 03:19 pezit wrote:
MC is the only one who can pull that shit off, so no one has experience fighting it. Let it be for a while, if it turns out that protoss is just unbeatable because of FF's being too strong then start talking about a nerf.
I'll admit i don't watch pretty much any of the smaller tournaments but are protoss winning everything or what? Cause i watch pretty much all the bigger ones and i can't see this happening at all, yes zerg has been struggling with protoss a little lately but it's not that bad, and it's certainly not only because FF's are OP.
When you have 10-15 sentries, you can place a lot of bad forcefields and it's fine. If you watch it again, a lot of those forcefields werent even needed and there were some that were overlapping by 75% of it. I don't believe MC is the only one that can pull forcefields off, I think protoss is actually dependent on a protoss being able to forcefield. Incontrol does very good forcefields and his apm is in the 80-120 range.
On March 21 2011 03:23 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 03:14 GeeseHoward wrote:On March 21 2011 02:00 DNA61289 wrote:
This entire thread is enraging, if you nerf sentries than you have to buff zealots and stalkers because protoss wont survive vs stim'd marines and marauders.
MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF. MC's build has been seen before, he uses it quite often against Terran. It's common for protoss to do mass sentries against terran and to break the thier defenses with sentries. Heck, even huk did some 5-8 sentry push with 2 zealots for the longest time. Force fielding the ramp of zerg is nothing new. 6gateway is not new. It's why a lot of Zergs are saying they can't beat good protosses right now, 6warpgate, voidray colossi, standard deathball, stargate play. Zerg is having problems with all of them. That's really all I wanted to say. Merely to say that it's untrue that this build is new. Oh, a zerg going for a 2base hydra drop is not passive. That's pretty much all in by the zerg player. And what are you talking about? His builds were not standard by any means, he had different timings than pretty much any protoss i've ever seen earlier including himself. I do believe i have Artosis on my side here cause i remember him mentioning it several times during the game. July said "i lost to the builds i have been practicing the most against", wanna know why? because while the builds were similar to normal 6 gates etc. his timings were different, and then add to that his great control and it'll make someone look terrible even if they're not.
I didn't say they were standard. I said it was not new for protosses to get a lot of sentries. There's really nothing else to talk about now since rest of your statement is base on something I didn't say.
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What if you added health to the FF and made it a neutral structure?
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1) Protoss Gateway units are underpowered in the early game
2) Forcefields can block ramps
3) Without forcefield, PvT is literally impossible to win
4) Zerg has a very tough time against forcefields, since they don't have space controlling units like Lurkers
Solution: Buff Zerg. Give them Hydra and/or Burrow at Tier 1 (Hydra range at Lair tech). Also give Zerg a cliff climbing unit. They are the "Swarm" after all.
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FF needs to stay in the game. It is fun to watch and allows creativity in micro.
It is probably too strong against zerg right now (terran can counter with EMP) but there are many ways to fix it like lowering duration, giving them hitpoints so they can be killed, increasing mana cost or instituting a cooldown.
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protoss needs it for support of the gateway units. Last time i checked, speed roaches and mass lings can rape pure gateway. Stimmed marauders/marines can rape pure gateway. sentries are an already expensive unit for the amount of damage and health it has. sentries are perfectly fine, everyone is crying OP about it now because people need to find things that are broken (even if its not even broken).
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Ok, to all people suggesting that you add health to forcefields - this is the sole reason it won't work.
Which army does more dps - a stimmed MM ball or a roach/zergling composition?
If you give forcefields a small enough set of health that roach/zergling can break them quickly, then MM can break them even faster, making defending as Protoss against Terran impossible (especially bio all-in plays).
If you give them enough health that MM can't break them quickly, then Zerg will be unable to break them in time for it to make a difference.
To people suggesting that you make 2 forcefields block a ramp. It won't work because it requires a very large amount of sentries to survive the all-in plays. Again, a 3-rax all-in from Terran needs to be split on the ramp to have a chance at fighting it efficiently. 2 Forcefields would work for doing this, but my army would be considerably weaker early game from all the gas I'm spending on sentries. They do really awful DPS for their gas cost. I'd need probably 1.5 to 2 times the number of sentries if it required 2 forcefields to block a ramp.
To people suggesting that forcefield cannot be used to split armies. This could work, but it puts a really harsh forcefield punishment on Protoss. As I'm certain you know, speedlings move really fast. If you put one on the ramp, you can roach rush 100% safely, as I can no longer split your army to kill it more efficiently. I could block it, but it takes such a high amount of reaction time that only progamers and people in the absolute highest tiers of masters could hold off all-in plays. And even that wouldn't be a good chance, as the time it takes to react to a single speedling getting on your ramp is almost the time it takes for said speedling to get on your ramp. That would probably turn people away from the Protoss race in general, which is bad for the game.
As the person said, please think about your suggestions, and try not to assume its immediately overpowered just because a player lost to it in the GSL. Remember, only 3 days ago, it was the Colossus that was overpowered, before that it was the lategame High Templar, and before that it was the Void Ray.
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On March 21 2011 04:58 acidstormy wrote:
protoss needs it for support of the gateway units. Last time i checked, speed roaches and mass lings can rape pure gateway. Stimmed marauders/marines can rape pure gateway. sentries are an already expensive unit for the amount of damage and health it has. sentries are perfectly fine, everyone is crying OP about it now because people need to find things that are broken (even if its not even broken).
Its not about the forcefields in general that are the main complaints from (i think)
Its about the fact that a bunch of sentries just can completely block reinforcements.
This is not about having great micro or anything to counter it, a forcefield will still block your way even if you were the top of the world against a lower skilled opponent.
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On March 20 2011 00:40 soupchicken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:21 Arkless wrote:
Did you really make another QQ thread? I honestly can't believe thisd is a topic of discussion ATM. Firstly, you stated a pro said in beta how force fields were the most broken thing in the game. Well, you neglected to mention how much more dps the sentries did in beta, and how much bigger the forcefield was. Forcefield is a needed component, much like concuss and stim, and ling speed etc. Please stop mkaing this qq thread with a different name. Yes sentries are necessary against Terran. But it seems that PERFECT forcefield play negates literally everything a zerg player can do to counter it. MC is amazing, which is exactly why this topic is created. If perfectly casted, forcefields can seemingly negate anything a zerg player can do. If this is the case, as Protoss players approach MC levels of skill, Zerg will be unable to win. It is a potential imbalance exposed by his tremendous skill. Also, as you mentioned they have tweaked the sentries numerous times, which should indicate you that the ability is strong enough to require significant tweaking to get right. True the sentry certainly is not as good as the beta sentry and it has taken, but does that mean it's properly balanced now? Perhaps it just took this long for toss player to reach a level of skill where the forcefield's ability to abuse zerg mechanics is really becoming apparent. This should be up for debate. If anything, a change needs to be made for the sake of SC2 as a spectator sport. It was very boring to watch even if it was technically excellent. It isn't fun watching a player literally helpless despite doing a lot of things right, you need some sort opportunity for July to micro his way to a victory to keep you on the edge of your seat. Once his main was ff'd off in the first game though it was gg. A confrontation that ends right when it begins is pretty boring IMO. All in all though, MC deserved to win. I think we all just wish it was a little more entertaining.
I'm sorry, but july lost because he did nothing but make a minimal amount of units, and drone. He got owned with the same strat for 4/5 games and didn't switch up once. He could have did a 1 base all in, coulda dropped more than the only 2 spines he dropped in the last game. He basically said, Hi I'm july. My favorite unit is a drone, and that is all I will make. Roach burrow could have been used, he coud have even dropped a spire, but he did nothing to change. Mc exploited an opponents weakenss with forcefields. He didn't exploit forcefields themselves. I think this is a trivial topic, because it is always a zerg starting them. But if you see a zerg rape an army with fungals (which imo is far worse because it roots u in place and does mad damage) It's good play. Fuck that. L2P before you qq, and instead of doing the same cookie cutter builds, try to strat around it.
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Make Forcefield a channeling spell, sentry can't move, the spell drain mana over time, it can last longer than 15 sec, only way to remove the forcefield is to kill the sentry.
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EPT
