EPT=p
I want to see more infestors, even if the idea is arbsurdly stupid.
A thorough analysis of Force Fields - Page 24
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
=p I want to see more infestors, even if the idea is arbsurdly stupid. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On March 21 2011 05:21 Whitewing wrote: Let fungal growth cancel forcefields! =p I want to see more infestors, even if the idea is arbsurdly stupid. Unless you got infestors out during the 4/6 gate push, that wont happen. Sounds fun tough  | ||
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RinconH
United States512 Posts
They need to give zerglings a tier 1 researchable ability to run down cliffs. That way toss needs to use more ff to cover themselves and can't block ramps offensively. | ||
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Impervious
Canada4209 Posts
The main problem is the offensive capabilities of forcefield. But, even then, that alone is not a problem. Ever faced someone 4 or 6 gating you, but you constantly killed their probe trying to build the proxy pylon? The push fails miserably, because without those extra 4 or 6 units right then, Z's units and defensive capabilities are able to handle it. The main problem isn't the forcefield, it's the reinforcement rate that P can have in combination with forcefields. P also needs warpgate, since the early game units are so fragile. Without it, they'd die to any moderately-early early pressure, yet again. So getting rid of either, or nerfing either, is clearly not going to fix the problem without causing a new serious one somewhere else. Later in the game Z gets access to units and abilities that can help. Infestors, roaches, mutas, and eventually ultras, drops, broodlords, etc all can deal with them, with use of micro. So, later on, it's not a big deal. So, something else needs to be done so that Z can defend against early, abusive FF + warpgate plays (4 gate and 6 gate are the 2 main ones), without screwing up the current balance in the mid to late game. Defending against warpgate requires Z taking down the pylon. While this is completely possible, a good P will never let you snipe their probe, and will make more than 1 pylon if needed. Defending against forcefields is currently impossible - it is up to the P player's discretion as to when, where, and how to use them. Meaning that the only way Z can really defend against them is if P makes a mistake and Z can capitalize on it. It's not a very interesting scenario when one player is hoping that the other screws up -_- So, imo, some kind of change needs to happen, so that there can actually be a micro battle or superior decision making used to decide the winner, rather than the current situation. I've only seen one solution presented that could do this, without changing the game drastically - making the queen "Massive". This would allow a queen to bust down forcefield blocks early on. Since queens are really, really fucking slow off creep, this would give a hand to Z in a defensive situation, because there is no realistic way to use this offensively in the early-ish game. I'm sure some timing attacks could be developed off of 1 base like a 7rr + queen to break through a FF, but I don't think that bringing a queen along with the push would make it much harder to defend than it already is, since most Ps seem to mass buildings to block it off completely, as well as get fast void rays, and once there are 2 void rays out, the push is dead. So, for an offensive use, I dont think that this change would make a considerable difference. Another obvious side effect is that Phoenixes couldn't lift a queen anymore. To get rid of this problem, Make it so the queen is not always massive. Solutions could be something like giving the queen an additional spell which will allow it to become massive for a set period of time (make it relatively expensive, like 50 energy for 22.5 seconds, which would also make it harder to do early rushes involving a queen to break up the ramp, eliminating one main problem), or a channelling spell like cloak (so that it can't be used all the time, and has to be used with care), or make it a transformation-like special like siege mode is for tanks (possibly disabling all other abilities the queen could use, and maybe even resetting the mana to zero when it transforms back), or even make it a morph from the queen, much like banelings morph from zerglings. I'm sure there are other possibilities, all of which have pros and cons. Another obvious side effect is that queens are able to knock down forcefields as part of the army. This could be the biggest problem, but it would force P players to be more careful with how they engage in the mid game, and could possibly help Z out vs the death ball that P can make, so I'm not sure how badly this would affect the later stages of the game. Adding more functionality to an underused caster unit doesn't seem to be a bad idea to me. Especially if it can be used to help fix a very specific problem without affecting much else in the game. Ultimately though, something needs to be done so that it is possible to deal with any of the abusive stuff that P can do with with FF + warpgate by using building positioning, unit micro, and good decision making. You don't get to do that against forcefields as they currently are. Looking back at BW, whenever there was some type of unit or gimmick that was considered "imba", there was some kind of unit composition+micro+decision making that could be used to defend against it. And every race had a bunch of such "imba" options and "imba countering" options. So far, unless I'm missing something big (which is possible, and if so I hope someone figures it out and lets everyone know before blizz decides to make a change like they've done with some other things *cough* reaper speed *cough*), there is no such balance in zvp revolving around early forcefield usage. Early forcefields are the ultimate force multiplier and the ability is the best game dictating spell if used correctly. And I don't know what the proper response is (other than sacking units to kill sentries or waste forcefield energy before it gets to the point that forcefields could be used to such a devastating effect). I know that there have been a bunch of players I've absolutely demolished because they didn't use forcefields well, but I also know that if they used them better, the result would have been the exact opposite. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On March 21 2011 05:21 Whitewing wrote: Let fungal growth cancel forcefields! =p I want to see more infestors, even if the idea is arbsurdly stupid. Lol that sounds fun, Fungal is so strong it eats forcefields =D. EMP by lore should eat forcefields by default, not so sure on psistorm though, vortex kill forcefields =P | ||
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Giantt
Bulgaria82 Posts
I tend to agree that Force Fields are a bit too powerful but maybe that is not the issue. In my opinion the problem for zergs comes by the lack of scouting mechanisms. We are past the days when you could run a speedling in your opponent's base because he had lowered the depot/moved the guarding zealot or made a mistake. Same goes for flying an overlord with ~0.5 speed. Zerg has to play on assumptions and it works until the moment when the opponent has a 4-5-6 set of strategies that require completly different play. Zerg lacks the utility of the protoss and terran(stalker or marine as an example) but also lacks a reliable scout mechanism and I think that is the root of all problems and OP topics. | ||
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theBOOCH
United States832 Posts
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partisan
United States783 Posts
Plus making hallucinate baseline would allow toss to have some variability in build orders because we wouldn't be forced robo just to get information. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15723 Posts
Nothing changed because nothing needed to change. People figured it out, life goes on. New styles that make a unit or spell or something look abusive and extremely imbalanced is a normal part of RTS strategic development. I firmly believe that any tournament match which makes people have these "Holy shit, this ruins the game" thought should only be considered such after at LEAST a month. Just look at the 2rax vs Zerg situation. We saw it every single GSL ZvT. It was basically unbeatable. Very little changed, now its beatable and by no means the standard. Map adjustments were made, 2rax worked great on large maps. 2 rax pressure worked on Shakuras cross spawns. Changes were made to the map pool, but it doesn't change the fact that the build was already proven to work on huge spawn differences. And lets not forget the fact that people started to say that marines countered every zerg unit because MKP started to show people how well you can split marines. But of course any comparison will not be perfect. If it was possible for me to make a proper comparison, SC2 would be boring as shit. My only point is that regardless of anything, it is downright improper to judge the long-term balance of the game based on a single tournament. Things change. The problem is also that forcefield makes you want to bang your head against the wall. Its like spider mines in BW. Most annoying fucking thing in the world, just plain shitty to play against. Or mass talon vs Orc in WC3. My main point is just that time and time again, we the SC2 community have made ourselves look like fools in our knee-jerk responses to the results of a single tournament. I realize many of you are new to the RTS scene and that this might be your first RTS game. But this is not uncommon. I admit that MC made forcefield look totally imba in his games against July, but it has happened before. There have been so many things similar to this in both SC2 and other RTS games. Give it a full month or so. If it still looks wildly out of control, then its worth talking about. But this is nothing new, people. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On March 21 2011 07:24 Mohdoo wrote: Does no one else feel like this whole "problems with forcefield" discussion looks a whole lot like the "problems with marines" discussion when MKP was starting to fully utilize marines? Nothing changed because nothing needed to change. People figured it out, life goes on. New styles that make a unit or spell or something look abusive and extremely imbalanced is a normal part of RTS strategic development. I firmly believe that any tournament match which makes people have these "Holy shit, this ruins the game" thought should only be considered such after at LEAST a month. Just look at the 2rax vs Zerg situation. We saw it every single GSL ZvT. It was basically unbeatable. Very little changed, now its beatable and by no means the standard. Map adjustments were made, 2rax worked great on large maps. 2 rax pressure worked on Shakuras cross spawns. Changes were made to the map pool, but it doesn't change the fact that the build was already proven to work on huge spawn differences. And lets not forget the fact that people started to say that marines countered every zerg unit because MKP started to show people how well you can split marines. But of course any comparison will not be perfect. If it was possible for me to make a proper comparison, SC2 would be boring as shit. My only point is that regardless of anything, it is downright improper to judge the long-term balance of the game based on a single tournament. Things change. The problem is also that forcefield makes you want to bang your head against the wall. Its like spider mines in BW. Most annoying fucking thing in the world, just plain shitty to play against. Or mass talon vs Orc in WC3. My main point is just that time and time again, we the SC2 community have made ourselves look like fools in our knee-jerk responses to the results of a single tournament. I realize many of you are new to the RTS scene and that this might be your first RTS game. But this is not uncommon. I admit that MC made forcefield look totally imba in his games against July, but it has happened before. There have been so many things similar to this in both SC2 and other RTS games. Give it a full month or so. If it still looks wildly out of control, then its worth talking about. But this is nothing new, people. Sigh it is not the same then when MKP did his awesome marine micro. You know that 1 little change? you could actually do something against it if you practice against it enough. His style got figured out and it doesn't work nearly as good anymore. 2 rax got used so much that ppl learned from their mistakes. a forcefield will still block your ramp to prevent your reinforcements even after you play a million matches against it. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
Now it's FF QQ, so MC crushes with a 3 gate push no sentries losing no units. May I suggest removal of Protoss before MC shows how pathetic y'all are, again. User was warned for this post | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
Now it's FF QQ, so MC crushes with a 3 gate push no sentries losing no units. I'd like for you to explain how MC doing a 3 gate push without sentries has any relevancy to the discussion about forcefields. As a side note, the zerg played quite, quite terrible that game. I believe two drone weren't mining the entire game, instead they were following another drone. | ||
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mmdmmd
722 Posts
I never played much P so can any good P tell me if it's possible to cast FF walls manually in a tight situation? | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On March 21 2011 08:22 Gentso wrote: I'd like for you to explain how MC doing a 3 gate push without sentries has any relevancy to the discussion about forcefields. As a side note, the zerg played quite, quite terrible that game. I believe two drone weren't mining the entire game, instead they were following another drone. As has been stated dozens of times in this thread there are hard counters for both races against a sentry builds. Much of it ignored. I merely suggest in a round about way exactly what you state, terrible play not FF are appearing as imbalance. I find it funny after these threads are made, usually after MC demolishes someone in some fashion, he uses something else IMBA..almost like he's reading.. | ||
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ZeRoMist
Canada16 Posts
what i did was play 20 games, 10 with sentry and ff / 10 with no sentry and ff and i did this against a terran who was told to 3 racks. ok what happened was that in the 10 games where i had ff i was able to stay alive and push the terran back.\ but in the 10 games i played with out ff i got just completely bent over by the M and M now if this shows anything it shows that both yes FF is strong but also that it is needed for protoss to live. i do feel tho if FF get removed or changed to much it will make playing protoss really hard | ||
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
 people say force fields break the game but ive done some test on this. what i did was play 20 games, 10 with sentry and ff / 10 with no sentry and ff and i did this against a terran who was told to 3 racks. ok what happened was that in the 10 games where i had ff i was able to stay alive and push the terran back.\ but in the 10 games i played with out ff i got just completely bent over by the M and M now if this shows anything it shows that both yes FF is strong but also that it is needed for protoss to live. i do feel tho if FF get removed or changed to much it will make playing protoss really hard I would hope that most people realize how much FF is needed against terran agression when they suggest changes to it. I don't think it needs to be changed, personally, but I really do hope people aren't that shortsighted | ||
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proot
United States126 Posts
Irradiate vs dark swarm EMP vs stasis Micro vs storm Forcefield is a tier 1 spell that has no counter in the zerg's arsenal and an expensive counter in the terran arsenal. That said, it basically relies entirely on the protoss players ability to set them up and is independent of enemy micro. I've heard "OMG AMAZING FORCEFIELDS" so many times by casters now, it seems like the norm. Take a shot for every time you hear that in a pvz/t match and you'll be rushed for alcohol poisoning in no time. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On March 20 2011 15:18 Blisse wrote: Forced to creep more, and bring slower Queen. Maybe buff Queen speed by 0.1 or something. I didn't think people would take my suggestion on IRC seriously about Queens. It just seems like too easy of a fix. The problem is how Terran will deal with Force Fields as well, and Protoss as well. I play Terran AND Zerg and Zerg definitely has a much harder time dealing with FF than the other races. PvP is all about 4 gate, or 3 stalker rush to delay their 4 gate to allow robotics. PvP can either transition out of 4 gate into 1 base colossus play which destroys FF, no problem there, or Blink Stalkers, again no problem there. PvT, Terran can get thors relatively quickly, if you see a 6 gate rush with no robo getting early thors is not a bad idea. Also siege tanks are great at stopping sentries from blocking your ramp which is the main problem in PvZ. Obviously because siege tanks have superior range and out range FF and a big clump of them would get demolished rather quickly with only 3 shots from a tank. PvZ on the other hand, Zerg has no early response they either need Ultralisks, Tunneling Claws, Banelings with Burrow or Overlord Drops and all of these things take time. Zerg works differently as many Zerg players know but it seems the toss players just don't know. Toss can get two geysers quickly because their 1 base play and gas usage early on in the game is extremely cost effective. Zerg getting 2 geysers off 1 base is atrocious, we don't have lurkers to spend the gas on in the mid game and the only other options are drops. Yea burrow works but it DOESN'T help you get down your ramp to defend your natural. NO OTHER race has this problem as I said before, even when toss takes an expansion they are investing all that gas into sentries for early defense but these units are also great at offense, as seen by MC he moves out with lots of sentries then reinforces with lots of stalkers when he begins blocking the main ramp. Zerg just needs some minor buff to help them, like give them burrow at hatchery tech but make the research time longer to compensate for not needing a lair. At least that way, zerg can research tunneling claws immediately after lair if they suspect a big sentry push. I really don't think Force fields need a fix at all, I think Zerg just needs a little buff. Terran can deal with FF perfectly fine and toss? Well, PvP is a joke I don't think balancing PvP should be discussed at all. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On March 21 2011 08:47 proot wrote: I don't see how an ability that only has one side to the equation is not considered overpowered. Look at BW and you see there are critical spells that come around the same tier for each race that counteract the enemy race: Irradiate vs dark swarm EMP vs stasis Micro vs storm Forcefield is a tier 1 spell that has no counter in the zerg's arsenal and an expensive counter in the terran arsenal. That said, it basically relies entirely on the protoss players ability to set them up and is independent of enemy micro. I've heard "OMG AMAZING FORCEFIELDS" so many times by casters now, it seems like the norm. Take a shot for every time you hear that in a pvz/t match and you'll be rushed for alcohol poisoning in no time. Technically the ultra is the counter for zerg. (some might say burrow and drop as well). Doesn't help in the large majority of games though.  And the last part is more about bad casting than anything. They do the same with storm and fungal even when they are cast very poorly and have nothing do to with the opponent microing his way out of the situation. | ||
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