|
On March 21 2011 02:30 Alpina wrote:
The problem is the amount of forcefields toss can make. There should be a limit of 1 FF per sentry maximum - that way protoss players will need to actually think where to put forcefields and not spam them all over the place.
Solution would be to disallow sentry to cast a second FF until the first disappear.
Also giving Queen a massive type modifier would be a good change. That would also make dealing with phoenixes easier but void rays would do 20% more damage so phoenix/voidray combination would be still strong.
i dont think 1 FF could be right maybe 2 or 3, because a zerg can just attack 1 time let the toss use his FF and then the toss need to back off because no way a toss can survive w/o FF
|
On March 21 2011 02:25 DNA61289 wrote:no i do not, i play Potoss. Maybe you can give me some insight into why i may be wrong instead of saying lol.
Sorry, did not mean any disrespect, but its because your reply seemed redundant in the thread as it is about forcefield taking away the micro aspect of the game and not July vs MC. I play random and am an MC fan too but July did not in anyway play poorly. He basically ran out of options.
Alot of players in TL.net say July could have gotten burrow. But they fail to realise that burrow is too gimmicky and is not a solid playstyle against a protoss of MC's calibre. Burrow is infact useless as if u burrow the front units upon forcefield, MC could have just targeted down July's hatchery. Furthermore, burrowing your units reduces your effective DPS as it essentially halfs your army. Unless July's roach army was significantly bigger than MC's, it wont work out. Not without tunneling claws.
Besides its not like July knows what MC is doing. The early scouting ability of the Zerg is destroyed by wall-ins, forcefields and stalkers guarding the edges. July has no idea what MC is doing and in such a situation going for burrow is suicide, because, if its void ray, you lose. If its 3 gate expand macro, you lose on economy. So in all cases the idea of a Zerg blindly going for burrow is not plausible, unless you are rushing the protoss with a burrow all-in.
Last, Many zergs are forced to delay lair due to 4 gate assumption. Zergs are not able to scout effectively unless your lings get into his base or you sac an overlord which puts you at risk of supply block and 2 drones less for a chance at scouting. They basically have to assume 4 gate and move on from there. Based on this, July cannot get burrow upgraded by the time a fully committed early 6 gate strikes anyway. Hydras on the other hand are faster to get out, and are effective against air play if MC decides to go for, which July does not know. So i hope I have changed your perspective of the situation. Zergs are running out of options and what you have seen in the finals is not MC far outplaying July but rather MC being a genius at abusing the racial traits of PvZ.
|
On March 21 2011 01:39 StateOfZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote:
i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts. Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass. IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore. The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage. As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals. Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg.
In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs.
In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered).
In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks.
There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user.
July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period.
It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-'
|
On March 21 2011 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 01:39 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote:
i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts. Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass. IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore. The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage. As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals. Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg. In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs. In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered). In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks. There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user. July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period. It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-'
Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all.
Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game.
As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs
|
anything that would make forcefields breakable by small units will negate their purpose... also research is bad thing unsless the time is like 30 seconds...
|
On March 21 2011 02:34 KhAlleB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 02:30 Alpina wrote:
The problem is the amount of forcefields toss can make. There should be a limit of 1 FF per sentry maximum - that way protoss players will need to actually think where to put forcefields and not spam them all over the place.
Solution would be to disallow sentry to cast a second FF until the first disappear.
Also giving Queen a massive type modifier would be a good change. That would also make dealing with phoenixes easier but void rays would do 20% more damage so phoenix/voidray combination would be still strong. i dont think 1 FF could be right maybe 2 or 3, because a zerg can just attack 1 time let the toss use his FF and then the toss need to back off because no way a toss can survive w/o FF
Let's say you have 5 sentries with 150 energy each. You can cast only 5 FFs so you must be very precise, then after your FFs disappear you can cast 5 again. This change won't change how toss defends his ramp and it will promote thinking before casting FF.
|
On March 21 2011 02:49 w0chtulka. wrote:
anything that would make forcefields breakable by small units will negate their purpose... also research is bad thing unsless the time is like 30 seconds...
Not if they have a proper amount of health. Especially if there was an upgrade available later on that made them unbreakable. This way early game they are still strong but CAN be broken, and late game when the DPS is much higher they will still be useful.
|
On March 21 2011 02:47 StateOfZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 01:39 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote:
i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts. Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass. IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore. The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage. As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals. Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg. In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs. In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered). In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks. There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user. July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period. It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-' Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all. Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game. As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs
In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries.
Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush.
If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield.
|
There obviously essential. Protoss could not compete with zerg and terran armies without them before colossi get out.
|
On March 21 2011 02:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 02:47 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 01:39 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote:
i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts. Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass. IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore. The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage. As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals. Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg. In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs. In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered). In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks. There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user. July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period. It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-' Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all. Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game. As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries. Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush. If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield.
In game one, MC cancelled the nexus at 80-90%. July was actively scouting but got pushed out by MC's sentries. He left 1 zergling at the xel naga outside MC's base and had 35-40 secs to prepare. He laid down 2 spines which were halfway done when MC reached. July also had 1 round of units which were of equal value to MC's army but sectioned off by forcefields. Eventually having roaches and lings not attacking kept most of MC's units alive. Mind you, MC pushed out with pure sentries and 1-2 stalkers. Warp in reinforcements were then mostly zealots and stalkers.
Had july made units in prep for MC's attack blindly, MC could've let the nexus get up and be on 2 base against july. If july expands, MC can then retaliate and force a cancel on July's third. Being without creep and behind in economy does not play well for 2 FE. Its impossible for a zerg to hold a third anyway if MC just forcefields the ramp. It would be auto loss from then on. The circumstances were much more complex than you would have imagined. double FE only works if the third is sneaked in or defend able, which is not.
I explained Zerg's scouting ability to quell the people saying MC OVERPOWERED july hands down. I stated it to show the lack of options July had in the situation. =)
|
On March 21 2011 02:00 DNA61289 wrote:
This entire thread is enraging, if you nerf sentries than you have to buff zealots and stalkers because protoss wont survive vs stim'd marines and marauders.
MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF.
MC's build has been seen before, he uses it quite often against Terran. It's common for protoss to do mass sentries against terran and to break the thier defenses with sentries. Heck, even huk did some 5-8 sentry push with 2 zealots for the longest time. Force fielding the ramp of zerg is nothing new. 6gateway is not new. It's why a lot of Zergs are saying they can't beat good protosses right now, 6warpgate, voidray colossi, standard deathball, stargate play. Zerg is having problems with all of them.
That's really all I wanted to say. Merely to say that it's untrue that this build is new. Oh, a zerg going for a 2base hydra drop is not passive. That's pretty much all in by the zerg player.
|
On March 21 2011 03:14 GeeseHoward wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 02:00 DNA61289 wrote:
This entire thread is enraging, if you nerf sentries than you have to buff zealots and stalkers because protoss wont survive vs stim'd marines and marauders.
MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF. MC's build has been seen before, he uses it quite often against Terran. It's common for protoss to do mass sentries against terran and to break the thier defenses with sentries. Heck, even huk did some 5-8 sentry push with 2 zealots for the longest time. Force fielding the ramp of zerg is nothing new. 6gateway is not new. It's why a lot of Zergs are saying they can't beat good protosses right now, 6warpgate, voidray colossi, standard deathball, stargate play. Zerg is having problems with all of them. That's really all I wanted to say. Merely to say that it's untrue that this build is new. Oh, a zerg going for a 2base hydra drop is not passive. That's pretty much all in by the zerg player.
Precisely, MC did not OUTSKILL July in anyway that July deserved to be manhandled like a bronze player against a high masters. I really admire MC's skill but this fanboyism is getting out of hand.
|
MC is the only one who can pull that shit off, so no one has experience fighting it. Let it be for a while, if it turns out that protoss is just unbeatable because of FF's being too strong then start talking about a nerf.
I'll admit i don't watch pretty much any of the smaller tournaments but are protoss winning everything or what? Cause i watch pretty much all the bigger ones and i can't see this happening at all, yes zerg has been struggling with protoss a little lately but it's not that bad, and it's certainly not only because FF's are OP.
|
Zerg basically can't scout effectively in ZvP or ZvT, the best ways of scouting all come at lair tech, maybe move lord speed to T1/T1.5 or something?
|
On March 21 2011 03:11 StateOfZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 02:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 02:47 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 01:39 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote:
i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts. Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass. IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore. The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage. As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals. Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg. In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs. In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered). In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks. There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user. July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period. It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-' Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all. Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game. As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries. Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush. If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield. In game one, MC cancelled the nexus at 80-90%. July was actively scouting but got pushed out by MC's sentries. He left 1 zergling at the xel naga outside MC's base and had 35-40 secs to prepare. He laid down 2 spines which were halfway done when MC reached. July also had 1 round of units which were of equal value to MC's army but sectioned off by forcefields. Eventually having roaches and lings not attacking kept most of MC's units alive. Mind you, MC pushed out with pure sentries and 1-2 stalkers. Warp in reinforcements were then mostly zealots and stalkers. Had july made units in prep for MC's attack blindly, MC could've let the nexus get up and be on 2 base against july. If july expands, MC can then retaliate and force a cancel on July's third. Being without creep and behind in economy does not play well for 2 FE. Its impossible for a zerg to hold a third anyway if MC just forcefields the ramp. It would be auto loss from then on. The circumstances were much more complex than you would have imagined. double FE only works if the third is sneaked in or defend able, which is not. I explained Zerg's scouting ability to quell the people saying MC OVERPOWERED july hands down. I stated it to show the lack of options July had in the situation. =)
MC letting the second nexus finish would have barely been a beneficial move, because he had been cutting probes for so long. He had been only producing attacking units from his 4gate to the point that he was almost all-in. He had to make something happen, and July just needed to stop whatever pressure MC needed to apply. July was far ahead in economy, but that was because July had been power-droning and MC had cut so many probes.
To make an attack like MC's work, Protoss has to take a big risk. If it doesn't work, the Protoss can't recover. It's certainly worth throwing down an extra spine or two or getting a few extra units if you're unsure as to what your opponent is doing. Especially if you can eventually get burrow or mutalisks (two other counters to forcefields), which would let you power-drone in the mid game.
|
On March 21 2011 03:19 pezit wrote:
MC is the only one who can pull that shit off, so no one has experience fighting it. Let it be for a while, if it turns out that protoss is just unbeatable because of FF's being too strong then start talking about a nerf.
I'll admit i don't watch pretty much any of the smaller tournaments but are protoss winning everything or what? Cause i watch pretty much all the bigger ones and i can't see this happening at all, yes zerg has been struggling with protoss a little lately but it's not that bad, and it's certainly not only because FF's are OP.
MC may be the only one who can pull it off now, but the skill level of SC2 will be ever increasing. In a year, there will be players who are better than MC now. The issue is, if all protoss players are to get better, eventually FF abuse will overpower Zergs.
The game should be balanced at the highest levels and not at all levels because its basically impossible. Everyone wants to play like their favourite progamer and if one race gets manhandled like that, how would the lower level players feel? Even If your opponents or you cannot pull off superb forcefields, does not mean FF isn't a little too good.
|
On March 21 2011 03:14 GeeseHoward wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 02:00 DNA61289 wrote:
This entire thread is enraging, if you nerf sentries than you have to buff zealots and stalkers because protoss wont survive vs stim'd marines and marauders.
MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF. MC's build has been seen before, he uses it quite often against Terran. It's common for protoss to do mass sentries against terran and to break the thier defenses with sentries. Heck, even huk did some 5-8 sentry push with 2 zealots for the longest time. Force fielding the ramp of zerg is nothing new. 6gateway is not new. It's why a lot of Zergs are saying they can't beat good protosses right now, 6warpgate, voidray colossi, standard deathball, stargate play. Zerg is having problems with all of them. That's really all I wanted to say. Merely to say that it's untrue that this build is new. Oh, a zerg going for a 2base hydra drop is not passive. That's pretty much all in by the zerg player.
And what are you talking about? His builds were not standard by any means, he had different timings than pretty much any protoss i've ever seen earlier including himself. I do believe i have Artosis on my side here cause i remember him mentioning it several times during the game. July said "i lost to the builds i have been practicing the most against", wanna know why? because while the builds were similar to normal 6 gates etc. his timings were different, and then add to that his great control and it'll make someone look terrible even if they're not.
|
On March 21 2011 03:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 03:11 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 02:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 02:47 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 02:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 21 2011 01:39 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote:
i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts. Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass. IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore. The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage. As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals. Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg. In game three, July dropped in a terrible spot. He didn't have a surround with his units. You're supposed to attack in a concave. Any player, regardless of the race he plays, should know that. That's why it was so easy to separate his units with a few FFs. In game one, July droned too hard because he was fooled by the nexus FE. He didn't have enough units to stop the early push (before the FFs on the ramp even mattered). In the other games where MC's push came later, July never got tunneling claws with his roaches (did MC ever even need an observer?), nor did he ever get mutalisks. There are MULTIPLE ways to solve Protoss FF play as a Zerg user. July was helpless throughout the series because he wasn't at MC's level. Period. It's ridiculous how a dozen FF QQ threads appear as soon as one person shows a great mastery of them. Why not actually try out different builds against them -.-' Okay.. in game 3 July dropped pure hydras with range upgraded, what surround?! what concave?! If your talking about a roach drop I may agree but a pure hydra drop in that location is not a mistake at all. Game one showed how july tried to poke into MC's base with all his options, overlord denied by a single stalker, zerglings by a wall-in and eventually sentries. July had to assume a 3 gate FE because if he doesn't drone, and MC decides to keep the nexus, July would outright be disadvantaged. Everyone says Zerg is a reactionary race and yet July's control of the xel naga towers and seeing MC walking across the map slowly cannot get the spines up in time and enough units. The first battle was even but when the forcefields starting dissecting and stopping reinforcements, it spiralled out of control. What you saw was abuse of Zerg's scouting disadvantage and lack of forcefield counter in the early game. As for roaches, the above post says it all. There are multiple ways to solve FF? I don't think so. Please suggest one then. I'm tired of explaining the timings. And I'm not QQing, I play random and I just feel unjust for the Zergs In game one, July could have checked to make sure the nexus actually finished. He left early. He could have expanded a second time if MC had truly expanded (or just drones really hard afterwards), so he wouldn't be behind if he had made more units earlier on instead of drones. Yes, he could have actually made more units instead of powering early on. Or gotten an extra spine or two for defense. He could have set up a flank during MC's push (like he did during the last game to intercept some units and the probe) to at least pop the proxy pylon or take out some sentries. Obviously, throwing down 2 or 3 spine crawlers when you have very few units and a big push is 15 seconds away from you is a big problem. That doesn't mean that forcefields are overpowered. That means that July wasn't ready for a rush. If you have a problem with Zerg's scouting ability, then that's a completely separate issue. I don't think they have good early scouting options either. However, that doesn't mean Blizzard needs to nerf forcefield. In game one, MC cancelled the nexus at 80-90%. July was actively scouting but got pushed out by MC's sentries. He left 1 zergling at the xel naga outside MC's base and had 35-40 secs to prepare. He laid down 2 spines which were halfway done when MC reached. July also had 1 round of units which were of equal value to MC's army but sectioned off by forcefields. Eventually having roaches and lings not attacking kept most of MC's units alive. Mind you, MC pushed out with pure sentries and 1-2 stalkers. Warp in reinforcements were then mostly zealots and stalkers. Had july made units in prep for MC's attack blindly, MC could've let the nexus get up and be on 2 base against july. If july expands, MC can then retaliate and force a cancel on July's third. Being without creep and behind in economy does not play well for 2 FE. Its impossible for a zerg to hold a third anyway if MC just forcefields the ramp. It would be auto loss from then on. The circumstances were much more complex than you would have imagined. double FE only works if the third is sneaked in or defend able, which is not. I explained Zerg's scouting ability to quell the people saying MC OVERPOWERED july hands down. I stated it to show the lack of options July had in the situation. =) MC letting the second nexus finish would have barely been a beneficial move, because he had been cutting probes for so long. He had been only producing attacking units from his 4gate to the point that he was almost all-in. He had to make something happen, and July just needed to stop whatever pressure MC needed to apply. July was far ahead in economy, but that was because July had been power-droning and MC had cut so many probes. To make an attack like MC's work, Protoss has to take a big risk. If it doesn't work, the Protoss can't recover. It's certainly worth throwing down an extra spine or two or getting a few extra units if you're unsure as to what your opponent is doing. Especially if you can eventually get burrow or mutalisks (two other counters to forcefields), which would let you power-drone in the mid game.
Yes yes, MC has been cutting probes and it would not be beneficial if he let it finish. But, July doesn't know that. He doesn't know what you and I know. MC could've been probing like a madman and maymard 11 probes the moment the nexus finishes and july is f**ked. I have been saying this over and over again, try to see it in view of Julyzerg's perspective. His hands are tied behind the whole series
|
TSL3 Game 1 MC wins without Forcefields pure Zealot/Stalker
maybe Zergs need to change their early drone timing alittle.
|
On March 21 2011 03:31 freetgy wrote:
TSL3 Game 1 MC wins without Forcefields pure Zealot/Stalker
that's a terrible example. Ciara is no where near July's skill lol.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
