EPTA thorough analysis of Force Fields - Page 20
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
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theBOOCH
United States832 Posts
Nobody thinks Force Field should be removed. This is a straw man. The question is - Does FF pose too much of an advantage? And if so, how do you alter it such that it retains its usefulness yet maintains balance. Exactly. It also comes with a huge list of other questions as well. I'm really interested in how new abilities change the way that RTS games normally work and the intended and unintended consequences of introducing them to the game. If there are balance problems, they never simply involve one unit or ability, it's a holistic thing and it relates to how the game works, not mechanically, but strategically. This wasn't supposed to be a balance thread. I've wanted to work on this for a long time. Watching the Finals just reminded me of all the questions I've had relating to how forcefields effect the basic nature of the game. An example; if SC2 were more heavily geared toward air based gameplay, but there were a number of ground based strategies that were risky but highly effective (basically the opposite of how things are), sentries and forcefield use would take on a whole new meaning. They would be similar to how detection and static anti-air defenses currently work. What I think is interesting and a little troubling is that forcefields can do the same thing, but against ground units in a game completely based around the economy, military, and technology strategy of building a ground army. | ||
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freestalker
469 Posts
On March 19 2011 22:09 mathemagician1986 wrote: burrow at hatchery tech is a terrible idea. Picture ZvZ: I get 4 banelings in his mineral line. He runs his drones away, I burrow and he cannot mine again for ages! GG right there. I think if Queens had the ability to destroy forcefields ZvP would become much more interesting. There no offensive use for this that I can think of, but Z could deny constant ramp blocks and even start sacrificing queens in order to get into good army positions. Losing queens carelessly will still punish the zerg though, because his production after will be reduced. I think it would be great, it encourages micro and doesn't seem to hard on P, while leaving TvP totally untouched. Easy solution to that. Give detection back to overlords. I still don't understand why zerg is the only race that got their detection nerfed and cost more gas compared to BW. (I know this is not BW but still) /derail  | ||
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IYobsI
Australia4 Posts
Yobs | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
On March 20 2011 15:53 Clare wrote: I'm sorry for this nooby question but how do you cast multiple ff's fast? Whenever I shift + f my sentries will do the first order first (usually attack move) before putting the force fields down. I end up having to go f-click, f-click repeatedly and sometimes I misclick and have to reselect the sentries. Any help? Just hold "F". | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On March 20 2011 09:32 pwnasaurus wrote: Honestly, I've said 5 times already, and I have to say it again, because it does not seem to be getting through. thread: July did not research burrow early enough - he got a hydra den instead then didn't build hydras /thread No one wants to listen to your lowly masters strategy, there are agendas here. Anything to cripple another race is fair game and counters need not apply. | ||
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bond1
38 Posts
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bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
Jesus; the OP brings "a wall of text" to a new meaning haha - there is this thing called the enter key and some BBcode wouldn't hurt  It's good to see someone put some thought into a thread about forcefields so thank you for that. The beautiful thing about this force field debate is that it has only surfaced now, almost a year after the release of the game! This just shows that so many abilities and strategies in the game are yet to be completely understood; the only thing that makes the forcefield such a contentious issue is the ability that MC has to make them so effective.. Games should always be designed for the highest level in my opinion; and when the highest level can execute forcefields in that manner then i believe some tweaking needs to be made. I do not believe that forcefield needs to be removed, or the fact that sentries can insta-cast on warp ins is really not an issue (if that was changed then early rushes would just destroy a Protoss.) If Blizzard when the way of the Khaydarin Amulet then there would be a massive problem as forcefields are just such an interesting part of the game.. Noone can possibly say that July responding correctly; he could have researched burrow earlier - a key strategy against a Protoss not opening robo, he also made a hydra den and then forgot to produce hydras or get the range upgrade; This is where my issue lies - MC made the forcefield look so good, but in the end - so did July. He really wasn't able to respond correctly, even engaging off creep into a choke at times.. For me, the time that a FF lasts - i think it is 15secs - can be tweaked, it would make baiting forcefields so much more of a meaningful strategy.. Another option is tweaking the energy regen rate of the forcefield.. There is just so much to be explored with the forcefield at high level play before any major decisions can be made; I'd personally love to see this strategy verse Nestea or Losira | ||
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Silent331
United States356 Posts
"OMG! NO WAY! WHAT!" yes there is. The solution is provide zerg with a defenders advantage. Why not use what blizzard gave to the zerg and has made leaps and bounds to make it an essencial piece of the zerg base. Creep. Make it so that all zerg units can move while burrowed ONLY when on creep. I am confident enough to say this will "fix" zerg | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On March 20 2011 17:15 tdt wrote: No one wants to listen to your lowly masters strategy, there are agendas here . Anything to cripple another race is fair game and counters need not apply. Indeed. I have no idea what exactly people are trying to achieve here, this thread is about as equivalent in quality of a battle.net thread--there is no discussion, people have already come to the decision that it is "broken" and needs changing. People have seemed to become empowered by the July vs MC thread and have taken it upon themselves to suggest changes that "need" to happen. The only pro that has posted here is Zelniq who has taken a completely level headed approach and telling people that July didn't lose because of force fields but rather poor decision making, yet still people seemed to be caught up with how force field effected the July vs MC match up. Look at what people have been suggesting, make force field channeling, make overlapping force fields cancel each other out, make it so only one force field can be applied per sentry, making Queens massive... Does anyone in their right mind actually think that Blizzard will ever go through with changes like these? I mean, if you are that compelled on getting it changed then why post here? There is a suggestions forum in the battle.net forum that community managers check and relay information back to developers, you will honestly make more of a difference there than complaining about abilities here... I'm surprised that threads like these are even allowed to exist on TL | ||
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theBOOCH
United States832 Posts
Jesus; the OP brings "a wall of text" to a new meaning haha - there is this thing called the enter key and some BBcode wouldn't hurt Lol, yeah I know. I did this thing in a hurry. Sorry 'bout that + Show Spoiler + I have no idea what exactly people are trying to achieve here, this thread is about as equivalent in quality of a battle.net thread--there is no discussion, people have already come to the decision that it is "broken" and needs changing. People have seemed to become empowered by the July vs MC thread and have taken it upon themselves to suggest changes that "need" to happen. The only pro that has posted here is Zelniq who has taken a completely level headed approach and telling people that July didn't lose because of force fields but rather poor decision making, yet still people seemed to be caught up with how force field effected the July vs MC match up. Look at what people have been suggesting, make force field channeling, make overlapping force fields cancel each other out, make it so only one force field can be applied per sentry, making Queens massive... Does anyone in their right mind actually think that Blizzard will ever go through with changes like these? I mean, if you are that compelled on getting it changed then why post here? There is a suggestions forum in the battle.net forum that community managers check and relay information back to developers, you will honestly make more of a difference there than complaining about abilities here... I'm surprised that threads like these are even allowed to exist on TL Yeah, I didn't really want this to be that kind of thread (believe it or not). I've just been thinking about how things like forcefield change the nature of the game for a long time and when everyone got riled up about it, I thought it would be a good time to initiate a discussion. It didn't really turn into much of one, but you shouldn't take it too seriously. Clearly you took the time to read a good amount of it. Some of the ideas people are throwing around are rather silly, but they're not hurting anything. I just wish people would take some time to talk about how their changes would affect the basic elements of strategic play. Not for the purpose of accomplishing anything, but because I, and hopefully other people, find it interesting. | ||
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
Any decent toss can 4gate and forcefield the zergs ramp which is insta-win unless zerg has perfect scouting and reacts accordingly. Its so damn easy to make it work compared to how hard it is to stop. I am all for forcefields being used to split up an army or prevent a fast rush. The only thing I dislike about forcefields is how easy it is to put it on the ramp and end the game right there. | ||
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EggYsc2
620 Posts
Forcefields are not imbalanced but Forcefields are not balanced enough yet /thread | ||
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
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SilverPotato
United States560 Posts
On March 20 2011 23:16 MadCatZ wrote: I will end this thread right here Forcefields are not imbalanced but Forcefields are not balanced enough yet /thread Oh no they're broken as hell, I just watched MC not just beat, but smash his way though the best Zerg in the world only because of FF. I understand MC is unbelievably good, but almost any protoss player at a Diamond/Masters level who can mimic even half of what MC does can just decimate their opponent. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 20 2011 23:34 SilverPotato wrote: Oh no they're broken as hell, I just watched MC not just beat, but smash his way though the best Zerg in the world only because of FF. I understand MC is unbelievably good, but almost any protoss player at a Diamond/Masters level who can mimic even half of what MC does can just decimate their opponent. Oh please, July is nowhere near the best zerg in the world. He only made the finals because of the easy brackets he had given to him after the entry round, and some very lucky wins vs. IMMvP. He made various HUGE mistakes in these games, and his opponent was too good to not heavily punish him for them. | ||
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BalZer
Italy44 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Notes: -1 for all yes's, someone yes'd for all of them. High Masters-(Top 500) + Show Spoiler + Mid-Low Masters + Show Spoiler + Diamond + Show Spoiler + Platinum + Show Spoiler + Gold + Show Spoiler + Silver + Show Spoiler + Bronze + Show Spoiler + I am personally of the opinion that forcefields are balanced, its just that MC dominated July so heavily that it made it look imbalanced. I am also somewhat shocked at the blatant disregard of what Pwnasaurus said, which is pretty true. By getting hydra den and not getting roach burrow/hydras, July left himself open to a sentry-gateway centric timing push. You NEED hydras/range or burrow in order to deal with that 6 gate push. And since July got neither, he lost. Plain and simple. | ||
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Hetz
196 Posts
. FF don't need to much of a change. That would screw TvP and PvP balance too much.Only zerg needs some protection here. I'd suggest FF can no longer be cast on creep. This will effectively remove blocking the zerg ramp but still enable protoss to defend their own main and expo. | ||
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NikonTC
United Kingdom418 Posts
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