EPTA thorough analysis of Force Fields - Page 19
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
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blooddrunKK
Mexico222 Posts
How AI reacts to FF | ||
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Utinni
Canada1196 Posts
On March 20 2011 12:52 blooddrunKK wrote: I found a very interesting video about Forcefields and the AI, you can check it out, i don't think it matters that much, but it's quite interesting how the AI reacts to the FF's How AI reacts to FF It was neat, I wish he actually used the ling when he used 4 ff's instead of telling me that it wouldn't work. It means I have to try it right now lol. | ||
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ryan__h
United States42 Posts
On March 20 2011 03:05 Stiver wrote: Making queens massive would fix FF, but kill stargate play. Sorry, no graviton, no point. Then maybe give queens a passive abillity that breaks ff when they run into it. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
It was neat, I wish he actually used the ling when he used 4 ff's instead of telling me that it wouldn't work. It means I have to try it right now lol. I thought that the forcefield between the gateways would demonstrate enough that the AI ignores the forcefields, thats why I didnt include it. Also another point about force field skill ceiling is that the player using the force fields will eventually learn to gauge the optimal range to place the force field (IE making it so stalkers and sentries can shoot while the trapped units cannot shoot out). As of right now, even MC screws this up occasionally Aye, the skill ceiling with forcefields is super high. Thats the reason people QQ really. Stuff like that, where you need good micro is most of the time not immediatly obvious. For example, in SC 1, no one thought reavers were OP. But the skill ceiling was high, and thus when someone found a way to abuse them, and had the micro to do it, and thus had shuttles shooting scarabs, well thats only when it became aparent. Likewise, forcefields seem pretty balanced on paper, or when used by a silver player, in fact, they seem rather weak when looking at that. But when used perfectly, they will look even more OP than they did when MC was using them. Its the same with mostly anything that has a high skill ceiling really. When people start using it, well usually its going to seem decent. And then when players start unlocking some of the hidden potential, getting closer to the ceiling, thats when you start to see what the spell/unit/ability/race is really capable of. Which is often very very scary when something has a high skill ceiling. | ||
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Utinni
Canada1196 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:23 morimacil wrote: I thought that the forcefield between the gateways would demonstrate enough that the AI ignores the forcefields, thats why I didnt include it. Aye, the skill ceiling with forcefields is super high. Thats the reason people QQ really. Stuff like that, where you need good micro is most of the time not immediatly obvious. For example, in SC 1, no one thought reavers were OP. But the skill ceiling was high, and thus when someone found a way to abuse them, and had the micro to do it, and thus had shuttles shooting scarabs, well thats only when it became aparent. Likewise, forcefields seem pretty balanced on paper, or when used by a silver player, in fact, they seem rather weak when looking at that. But when used perfectly, they will look even more OP than they did when MC was using them. Its the same with mostly anything that has a high skill ceiling really. When people start using it, well usually its going to seem decent. And then when players start unlocking some of the hidden potential, getting closer to the ceiling, thats when you start to see what the spell/unit/ability/race is really capable of. Which is often very very scary when something has a high skill ceiling. Ya it does actually... but there is always that voice in the back of your head that nags and nags. It told me I should check it out for myself since it wasn't shown in the video. Sorry if I was rude or oblivious, It's just one of those things. | ||
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
1.) Give the Queen the "Hulk Out" ability, which causes it to become massive for 15 seconds (30 second cooldown). For balance purposes, could introduce the cost being something like 50 HP on top of the cooldown. 2.) Make changelings break force fields. This is the two birds, one stone fix. It would be the easyest to impliment (making them massive type) and it requires hive tech + at least one over seer. It also puts micro back into the FF engagement and gives more game time to Overseers. I like number 2 the most as Overseers are generally unused in ZvP except for a tech scout in early mid game and for detection of DT and late game motherships. And, it won't be an unfair ability as the changeling can be sniped before it hits a FF or stormed (unless it was dropped on to one, but the Overseer can be sniped and/or Feedback. This change would have no affect on ZvT, ZvZ, or PvT so I think, if blizzard wanted to address PvZ FFs, then they should do something that only affects ZvP. | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On March 20 2011 12:15 Snaphoo wrote: @MonsieurGrimm: I agree that Zerg scouting could use a boost; but again, suboptimal Zerg scouting doesn't prove that FFs should be nerfed. In addition, I'm aware that if you overprepare for a 4gate you will lose-- similarly, many Toss lose to roach all-ins (see: scrap station) when they go for Forge FEs because if they lose their scouting probes, they have no idea how many cannons to put down. Too few, and you're dead. Too many, and your economy is so far behind you're in a bad spot. By the time observers and hallucination are out, it's probably too late. Bottom line, you have to do your best with imperfect early-game scouting. Protoss don't cry that their early-game detection is too weak; they simply accept that Forge expansions (like early droning) are a risk-reward game that requires careful scouting and a cat-and-mouse game. JulyZerg did a bad job of scouting (didn't react strongly enough to the number of units he saw, the early stalker was a tip-off, didn't have a zergling parked by the edge of MC's base where pylons can warp in units onto the low ground, etc.). Also, MC manipulated him beautifully with the fake Nexus, as @refluX said. If I recall, in GSL 3 JulyZerg built a Hatch, cancelled it, and built a baneling nest in its place on the creep against a Terran. Terran saw a morphing Z structure at the natural and assumed July was going for an expansion, probs. When JulyZerg showed up at his main a few minutes later with anincredibly fast baneling bust, Terran was totally owned. Baneling Bust OP? Hardly. Mindgames can give you a massive advantage by keeping an opponent unprepared; Z just have to be ready for it. The best solution I can come up with is that forcefields should deteriorate faster when placed on creep, as I posted earlier in the thread. Anyways, in summary: I still don't see how FF is OP; I just see suboptimal scouting and decision-making by July, compared to flawless execution by MC. And I agree with the majority of your post; I don't think that Forge FE is a good example, because it's almost economy cheese - you get a massive econ advantage but you can't defend against hydra drops (see game 3 of gsl finals) - without overspending on defenses. In any case, I don't think forcefields in general are overpowered at all, the only thing overpowered I see about it is the blocking off the main-natural ramp to cut the zerg army in half and hugely hinder the zerg's defense against early attacks. I also agree that July's scouting was what killed him, or more to the point he let the 3-4 zerglings he had scouting the protoss front die, which meant he was unable to see the cancel. | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On March 20 2011 12:51 Utinni wrote: L2stop4gate? Also having your army at your expansion rather then up on the cliff when you expand helps.... SERIOUSLY!!!! lol. Please have some inkling of what you're talking about before you post next time. Any half decent zerg will rally his army to the low ground - the issue is that you build up your army while taking hits from the protoss army before you engage, and that doesn't work when half your army is stuck indefinitely. Also, L2stop4gate? Maybe you should try it. | ||
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Sensator
Australia377 Posts
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
On March 20 2011 15:06 Sensator wrote: Queens having a passive ability to break forcefields on entry would fix 4gate rushes, but it won't make a difference when you have to fight away from your creep. Forced to creep more, and bring slower Queen. Maybe buff Queen speed by 0.1 or something. I didn't think people would take my suggestion on IRC seriously about Queens. It just seems like too easy of a fix. The problem is how Terran will deal with Force Fields as well, and Protoss as well. | ||
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Dimagus
United States1004 Posts
Ramps need to be modified so that 1 forcefield does not do a complete block. | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On March 20 2011 15:24 Dimagus wrote: Maps had the bottom of ramps modified so that 2 bunkers could not do a complete block. Ramps need to be modified so that 1 forcefield does not do a complete block. This would break all protoss vs x matchups, unfortunately. Protoss vs protoss would degenerate back into 4gate vs 4gate, right when we're starting to see it crawl out of that. Protoss vs terran, protoss early defense often depends on forcefielding the ramp Protoss vs zerg, baneling busts would become unstoppable. | ||
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mholden02
387 Posts
I as Protoss agree that FFs are very very strong, maybe too much. They however require some skill. Problem is, that if you remove them, Protoss doesnt stand a chance against Terrans. Protoss win and die with forcefields, if you know what I mean Nobody thinks Force Field should be removed. This is a straw man. The question is - Does FF pose too much of an advantage? And if so, how do you alter it such that it retains its usefulness yet maintains balance. | ||
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Dimagus
United States1004 Posts
On March 20 2011 15:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote: This would break all protoss vs x matchups, unfortunately. Protoss vs protoss would degenerate back into 4gate vs 4gate, right when we're starting to see it crawl out of that. Protoss vs terran, protoss early defense often depends on forcefielding the ramp Protoss vs zerg, baneling busts would become unstoppable. It would mean that you would have to cast 2 force fields, and wouldn't be able to do indefinite loops of chain blockage (offensive or defensive). It would become similar to the effect of forcing a terran to stim through mutalisk harassment, except you're forcing the sentries to use energy that won't be available for a future open field battle. | ||
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mholden02
387 Posts
This is very reminiscent of after patch 1.3 was announced, Kheydarin Amulet was getting threads pseudo over-analysing it as if it was sooooo obviously ruining every game up until that point. Yet before that there was very little discussion on it. No one was really THAT anxious about the upgrade either way. Really? you never heard mention of Toss late game being a tad strong? ForceField needs to be nurfed. I like giving them hitpoints, say 150 - 200. But there are many possible solutions | ||
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Clare
United States372 Posts
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Zefa
United States297 Posts
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Murmeln
Sweden185 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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