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A thorough analysis of Force Fields - Page 21
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Co-lol-sus
Bulgaria141 Posts
lol. If you get an ad, skip to 7:30 | ||
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nukkuj
Finland403 Posts
Enabling burrowed movement for all units within creep would be cool too. This would still leave T helpless before getting medivac/ghost and those aren't strong solutions to the problem anyway, ghosts being just a gamble if you can hit EMP before FFs land and medivacs are fragile when picking up units from frontlines. In order to split opponent's army in half like they do now, protoss would need to "slow-push" with pylons.  It would give opponents more time to prepare for it. | ||
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thegamer
47 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:47 nukkuj wrote: Make FF only usable within pylon psi radius. This would enable Protoss to use it blocking ramp, but not to steamroll T/Z army regardless of where the fight happens. Enabling burrowed movement for all units within creep would be cool too. This would still leave T helpless before getting medivac/ghost and those aren't strong solutions to the problem anyway, ghosts being just a gamble if you can hit EMP before FFs land and medivacs are fragile when picking up units from frontlines. In order to split opponent's army in half like they do now, protoss would need to "slow-push" with pylons. It would give opponents more time to prepare for it. That seems like a good idea, but I think it would completely undermine the sentry to a unit that will never be used. I think it would be a good idea to add a cooldown to the FF so that toss players cant get like 5 sentries early game, then pool like 150 energy on each of them. That way they cant instantaneously cast 15 FFs under that circumstance and cut the opponent's army in half | ||
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pak150
United States531 Posts
On March 19 2011 21:44 Rain.cz wrote: i would make it on cooldown instead of energy I agree — I'd make it a cooldown akin to a Thor (as opposed to a corrupter), available when the sentry spawns. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:47 nukkuj wrote: Make FF only usable within pylon psi radius. This would enable Protoss to use it blocking ramp, but not to steamroll T/Z army regardless of where the fight happens. Enabling burrowed movement for all units within creep would be cool too. This would still leave T helpless before getting medivac/ghost and those aren't strong solutions to the problem anyway, ghosts being just a gamble if you can hit EMP before FFs land and medivacs are fragile when picking up units from frontlines. In order to split opponent's army in half like they do now, protoss would need to "slow-push" with pylons. It would give opponents more time to prepare for it. Way to completely DESTROY a unit. If you want Sentries to never be used, full-stop, then yeah. Sure. PvT early game: Sentries are vital to block ramp etc. If you make FF only useable in pylon radius then Protoss needs a Pylon right next to the ramp, easily snipeable and completely pointless. PvT early game is hard enough for P as it is. Late game anything: Sentries would never be used. They would become redundant as soon as any engagements could be forced outside of P's base or near a proxy pylon. How would you feel if FG was only useable on Creep, or Stim was only useable in your base? What a game-killing thought. Nukkuj, I highly doubt you play Protoss, or not at a high level if you do. This idea is one of the typical ones that gives the community as a source of balance ideas a bad name. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
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TurtlePerson2
United States218 Posts
EMP should also break force fields. | ||
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StateOfZerg
31 Posts
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts. Guys, all forcefield need is a some tweaking. For a spell to disable an opponent's ability to micro and reinforce, we have to set limitations to it. As of now, forcefield comes too early in the game and is versatile enough to be used at all stages. Comparatively, fungal growth comes only mid-late game and is not that easy to amass. IMO, retain a sentry's defensive posture early game but nerf its army dissection potential, a tweak that disallows forcefields to be placed on units and buildings would be needed. I know Protoss players will be all angry about it saying forcefields are hard to place already, but it is definitely needed for players of MC's level. Eventually the community and all protoss player's general skill will improve and this won't be such a big issue anymore. The true strength in forcefield is dissection. When u split an opponent's army, u are forcing him to fight the battle or lose half his hard earned macro for nothing. It disregards the advantage of the opponent's better macro or army composition because, forcefields control the number of units attacking at once. For instance, in the third game of MC vs July, an almost pure sentry army was fighting a 12 hydra army. In theory, the sentries would get whipped apart. However, due to dissection, the hydras where only allowed to fight 1-2 at a time against MC's whole sentry army, limiting the amount of unit loss for MC and destroying July's so-called army advantage. As of now, forcefield is INDEED too good for starcraft 2. It puts the ball in the protoss's ballpark. It is up to him to win/lose the game and does not level the playing field for Zergs. Restricting its usage to only empty hexes would mean, a high level player like july can micro his zerglings on the ramp to prevent forcefield construction from blocking his reinforcements. Now, with that change, Starcraft 2 can progress further into an esport as effective micro from both the Zerg and the Protoss can swing battles. Instead of the helpless situation July was in at the GSL finals. Well, its either that or a 4 seconds forcefield, cause blizzard likes tweaking values lol. To all flamers who wanna post "OMG ZERG QQ ROFL", i'm a competitive random player and I just want to share my opinions cause I play both races and FF is indeed too punishing to the zerg. | ||
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BalZer
Italy44 Posts
On March 21 2011 01:25 mahnini wrote: i don't know why this thread has a bunch of nerf suggestions from people who clearly don't know what they are talking about. i think if you really think forcefield is imbalanced you should try to clearly articulate and explain where that imbalance lies rather than giving a bunch of dumb nerf posts. they're probably not imbalanced, but they're terribly boring. more gateway buffs and less FFs. | ||
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Uhnno
Netherlands288 Posts
On March 21 2011 01:44 BalZer wrote: they're probably not imbalanced, but they're terribly boring. more gateway buffs and less FFs. Reading treads and comments like these are just completely enraging. If you buff gateway units you buff 4gate timing pushes. Compare the amount of whine against forcefields and 4gates. Most people aren't even thinking when they talk about balance. Can we have a discussion instead of mindless raging of forcefields? | ||
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
This may look somewhat bad now but I think it will be far worse in the future as the best protoss players are getting better and better. Being able to dictate the game like that is, regardless of actual strength, one of the biggest advantages you can achieve in the game. If we are to look to change I think we need to look at what we can do to make the oponent influence the outcome more; how can we force mechanincs upon the oponent so that the forcefields become an advantage if done well but an advantage that can be negated if the oponent is doing even better? The first thing that comes to mind is we could give forcefields hitpoints. If a forcefield is in the way you can shoot it down. In the heat of battle the new function of a forcefield would be to gain a temporary wall and to redirect incomming damage from your units to your forcefields. Being able to swiftly replace destroyed forcefields will make your forcefield wall as strong and functional as it is currently but is going to require better micro and reactions. The oponent can then actively influence the outcome of the battle by fast sniping key forcefields in the wall. Another idea that pops up is to make forcefields a channeled spell, making the sentries unable to shoot or move while casting. If it does so or is destroyed the forcefield is instantly removed. This makes positioning of the sentries before battle a lot more significant and sniping sentries durring battle a lot more rewarding. Either way I think we need to focus on solution where the players has a larger influence on battle; the current funtionality of forcefields, a-moving armies, the AI and so on are, balanced or not, not particularly fun to watch and as soon as you get anywhere near pro level not very fun to play. | ||
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Warrice
United States565 Posts
I dont think forcefield would be as bad if units went around them on their own, people might think well just micro, yeah, you try it, see how it works they just put another forcefield down in the spot you tried to go around and you have to do it all over again. | ||
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DNA61289
United States665 Posts
MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF. | ||
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BalZer
Italy44 Posts
On March 21 2011 01:50 Uhnno wrote: Reading treads and comments like these are just completely enraging. If you buff gateway units you buff 4gate timing pushes. Compare the amount of whine against forcefields and 4gates. Most people aren't even thinking when they talk about balance. Can we have a discussion instead of mindless raging of forcefields? if u dont want to buff gateway units and keep the FF status as it is now, u should give T and Z a real way to deal to forcefields. massive units come in the game too late compared to a T1,5 sentry. ghost are useful but when i have ghosts on the field i would give emp-priority to Templars instead of sentrys, and as a Z, dunno burrowed roaches are good but this thech is very slow to reach, maybe Blizzard should remove Tunneling Claws and give the possibility for burrowed roach to move when the Burrow research is complete. see the video posted above. i dont like this style of playing. minigun is a great player but the state of the game force him to shutdown the baneling attack that's comin by completely sourrounding himself. is this the game we, as players and spectators, enjoy? | ||
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StateOfZerg
31 Posts
On March 21 2011 02:00 DNA61289 wrote: This entire thread is enraging, if you nerf sentries than you have to buff zealots and stalkers because protoss wont survive vs stim'd marines and marauders. MC's build has never been seen before and July was playing completely passive the entire series. There are quite a few things that July could have done to stop MC's timing attack but hes not that great so he lost. Like for example he could have gotten burrow sooner and burrowed banelings at key chock points. MC's entire build revolves around having 10 plus sentires and sentries evaporate to banelings. So it was July's lack of experience vs that build that was his downfall not sentries and FF. erm lol. Do you play zerg? | ||
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Sentient
United States437 Posts
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
so simple? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44368 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:40 Co-lol-sus wrote: toss imba against himself, removes his own ability to micro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJJ7XdeX3vo#t=7m30s lol. If you get an ad, skip to 7:30 That was actually a really smart move, considering the fact that IdrA had him surrounded anyway. iNcontroL likes to wrap himself in FFs sometimes too as a defensive maneuver. | ||
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DNA61289
United States665 Posts
erm lol. Do you play zerg? no i do not, i play Potoss. Maybe you can give me some insight into why i may be wrong instead of saying lol. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
Solution would be to disallow sentry to cast a second FF until the first disappear. Also giving Queen a massive type modifier would be a good change. That would also make dealing with phoenixes easier but void rays would do 20% more damage so phoenix/voidray combination would be still strong. | ||
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