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On March 20 2011 09:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
We should nerf FF by telling Zergs that they can research Burrow or get Mutalisks. We should also nerf FF by telling Terran they can get EMP.
No other change is needed. Just because MC has incredible FF execution and great micro doesn't mean that we need everyone to start complaining about it.
/discussion
yeah cus there's plenty of time to get borrow and mutas against a 4 gate and FFing a ramp over and over is so hard to execute.
..seriously?
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I like the idea of FFs not being able to be placed where units currently are (as a Zerg player  ), but I can recognize that that would actually hurt Toss a ton. I feel like it'd be way too hard to protect your sentries while you're pushing across the map, since all it takes is some lings to get a surround and its GG because you just lost 8+ sentries and there was nothing you could do to protect them once the lings got up.
Personally, I think the duration needs to be shortened, maybe between 8-10 seconds. I just pulled that range out of my ass, and obviously the real number would be tested for, but I think 15 seconds is just way too long. It just seems like, once you get one FF down on a ramp, its insanely easy to keep it up since you have so long to remember to throw another one down. Maybe top players just make it look that easy, IDK, but I think a shorter duration would actually give room for the Toss to miss a FF long enough for you to capitalize.
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Burrow is quite good against heavy forcefield usage, but its not quite as good as ppl seem to make it out to be.
Just having burrow doesnt save you. You need burrow, and also an army as big, or bigger than the protoss army. So burrow doesnt really give you much of an advantage, it mostly just allows you to defend yourself with an equally strong army, without being screwed.
And it doesnt last very long, once observers are out, burrow is once again pretty much nuliffied, and forcefields are once again really strong. only at that point, you arent faced with just forcefields and a gateway army, its forcefields and a protoss deathball 
Dont get me wrong, burrow and enough roaches are really good at stopping a 6gate push.
But it isnt really the same, as in, if zerg doesnt have burrow, or doesnt have enough roaches, he dies immediatly. If he does, well he can live to see the robo...
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I like, no LOVE the idea that queens become massive, this would really help. Although, it's pretty easy to make several queens on two hatches, perhaps they should have to morph into a bigger queen that costs gas, makes them massive type and makes them more versatile offensively but they lose their defensive abilities like transfusion, spawn larva and creep tumors. I think FFs are fine but Zerg is having trouble with them and I think an early unit that can deal with FF would be ideal and it wouldn't really effect the balance of ZvT or TvP.
Perhaps the Queen can morph into the massive type at Lair, that way there needs to be some investment in the tech tree just like getting overseers for detection and burrow.
Either that or give roaches tunneling claws once burrow is researched (with a nerf to how they heal while burrowed of course) because yes burrow is a way to negate force fields but it still doesn't actually help your army stuck in your main. Tunneling claws would allow your roaches at the top of your ramp to move down and support you. Terran can deal with ramp blocking with siege tanks superior range or thors. Toss doesn't need to worry about ramp blocking at all, they can warp units in to the low ground if a pylon reaches there. Zerg is really the only race that can't deal with FFs blocking the ramp as you need ultras to deal with that.
Or maybe builds will arise where you get two roach warrens, I dunno...
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On March 20 2011 10:11 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 09:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
We should nerf FF by telling Zergs that they can research Burrow or get Mutalisks. We should also nerf FF by telling Terran they can get EMP.
No other change is needed. Just because MC has incredible FF execution and great micro doesn't mean that we need everyone to start complaining about it.
/discussion yeah cus there's plenty of time to get borrow and mutas against a 4 gate and FFing a ramp over and over is so hard to execute. ..seriously?
If you're referring to the one game when MC tricked July on Metalopolis (Game 1 iirc) with the fake expansion so that July would have fewer units, then that was more of an attribute to MC's opening working out to his advantage. If July had more attacking units, then he could have stopped the attack.
So basically, don't be so greedy early on with droning up. And within three minutes or so after that, you can definitely have burrow. So yes. Seriously.
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If you scout a 4gate, you can stop a 4gate. If you don't, it's pretty dicey. Same with two-port banshee. Same with DTs. Same with 2 rax all-ins. FFs don't need to be nerfed, Zerg players just need to make sure Toss can't waltz 12 sentries across the map without consequences, and can't drone up when there are warning signs of a 4gate incoming.
I think July's "new style" of ZvP involved fast hydras, but that played right into MC's hands with the early aggression and timing attacks. IMO July didn't get enough/react to scouting information and was too late on the burrow.
But as I said earlier, MC really didn't make any mistakes in his games (except misreading the drop potential in Game 3 + not protecting probe with the 6gate better in Game 5). July, in contrast, made quite a few errors. That was the difference, not FFs.
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On March 20 2011 10:33 Snaphoo wrote:
If you scout a 4gate, you can stop a 4gate. If you don't, it's pretty dicey. Same with two-port banshee. Same with DTs. Same with 2 rax all-ins. FFs don't need to be nerfed, Zerg players just need to make sure Toss can't waltz 12 sentries across the map without consequences, and can't drone up when there are warning signs of a 4gate incoming.
I think July's "new style" of ZvP involved fast hydras, but that played right into MC's hands with the early aggression and timing attacks. IMO July didn't get enough/react to scouting information and was too late on the burrow.
But as I said earlier, MC really didn't make any mistakes in his games (except misreading the drop potential in Game 3 + not protecting probe with the 6gate better in Game 5). July, in contrast, made quite a few errors. That was the difference, not FFs.
Unfortunately, zerg scouting is shit, so you have to make reads which is as you said, pretty dicey. And there isn't much zerg players can do about protosses waltzing across the map except counterattack the main with lings (which is beaten by a zealot or a pylon in the gap), you need to save your army till the last possible moment so that you have as strong a defense/ as possible.
If you invest completely in units just because you suspect a 4gate, you'll lose if the protoss doesn't expand - you need to get a good amount of drones before making your call, and if you see the protoss expanding that tells you you need to drone - making units will only hurt you. It's unfortunate that July lost the lings he was using to monitor MC's front, that was the only thing keeping him in the game, but it's really annoying when players talk about stopping 4gate so simply - it isn't simple in the slightest.
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FF may need a shorter energy cost but they are from broken. In the last match of the finals for instance, julyzerg got destroyed because his hydras didnt have range, a hydra with range in terms of being able to attack is unaffected by FF due to the ranged units of protoss having to be in that range to attack, and we all know that hydras tear apart gateway units, this is why hydra ling is a normal counter to the 3 gate expand. MC even made note of this in his interview "july never made it necessary for me to make colossus", this is directly related to his lack of significant threat with his hydras mostly due to the lack of range. Also, burrow is another viable counter which july researched sometimes but never got to fully implement the strengths of it. A hard counter is of course, ultralisks.
Frankly, no matter what MC did, the community would of cried iMBA. If he chose colossus, it would of been the normal "colossus imba!", if he chose HT, it would of been "trololololol, you cant warp in storms soon nub" and obviously with sentry play "FF is imba!". Also with the whole "all he did was timing rush!, i want macro game rawr". If july had held the attacks the games would of swung to macro games, this could of been done by better scouting etc. It is no fault on MC to try and attack once he gets a certain advantage or feels he has a certain advantage. As zerg, July should know the possibilites of the Protoss timing rushes and prepare for them. Not saying he is a bad player but he was just outclassed.
So i agree FF may need a small tweak in terms of energy cost or something, so people complain less about them but otherwise, its not that broken. Especially not in TvT with mech becoming so popular.
EDIT: I am aware 4 gate rush can be a hassle but in the first game, it was the nexus fake that stuffed july up, not the FF or the 4 gate in general. He simply saw the expansion and felt he had the freedom to drone up a bit, yes the FF stopped roaches from getting down from the main but he had already lost it by that point despite how good he looked at holding it for some time.
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On March 20 2011 10:23 emc wrote:
I like, no LOVE the idea that queens become massive, this would really help. Although, it's pretty easy to make several queens on two hatches, perhaps they should have to morph into a bigger queen that costs gas, makes them massive type and makes them more versatile offensively but they lose their defensive abilities like transfusion, spawn larva and creep tumors. I think FFs are fine but Zerg is having trouble with them and I think an early unit that can deal with FF would be ideal and it wouldn't really effect the balance of ZvT or TvP.
That could pose a problem against void rays rushes though. But your queen upgrade to massive idea could work if the upgrade also gave queens the speed they need off creep.
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On March 20 2011 11:30 dudeman001 wrote:Show nested quote +[spoiler]On March 20 2011 10:23 emc wrote:
I like, no LOVE the idea that queens become massive, this would really help. Although, it's pretty easy to make several queens on two hatches, perhaps they should have to morph into a bigger queen that costs gas, makes them massive type and makes them more versatile offensively but they lose their defensive abilities like transfusion, spawn larva and creep tumors. I think FFs are fine but Zerg is having trouble with them and I think an early unit that can deal with FF would be ideal and it wouldn't really effect the balance of ZvT or TvP. That could pose a problem against void rays rushes though. But your queen upgrade to massive idea could work if the upgrade also gave queens the speed they need off creep.
That would be a huge issue, and massive fast queens off creep would be too good. Maybe give them another skill/passive that break force-fields. I think a passive might be a bit much as it would make force fields too weak offensively. An active skill requiring mana would be more interesting, but queens already have 3 active skills.
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@MonsieurGrimm: I agree that Zerg scouting could use a boost; but again, suboptimal Zerg scouting doesn't prove that FFs should be nerfed.
In addition, I'm aware that if you overprepare for a 4gate you will lose-- similarly, many Toss lose to roach all-ins (see: scrap station) when they go for Forge FEs because if they lose their scouting probes, they have no idea how many cannons to put down. Too few, and you're dead. Too many, and your economy is so far behind you're in a bad spot. By the time observers and hallucination are out, it's probably too late. Bottom line, you have to do your best with imperfect early-game scouting. Protoss don't cry that their early-game detection is too weak; they simply accept that Forge expansions (like early droning) are a risk-reward game that requires careful scouting and a cat-and-mouse game.
JulyZerg did a bad job of scouting (didn't react strongly enough to the number of units he saw, the early stalker was a tip-off, didn't have a zergling parked by the edge of MC's base where pylons can warp in units onto the low ground, etc.). Also, MC manipulated him beautifully with the fake Nexus, as @refluX said.
If I recall, in GSL 3 JulyZerg built a Hatch, cancelled it, and built a baneling nest in its place on the creep against a Terran. Terran saw a morphing Z structure at the natural and assumed July was going for an expansion, probs. When JulyZerg showed up at his main a few minutes later with anincredibly fast baneling bust, Terran was totally owned. Baneling Bust OP? Hardly. Mindgames can give you a massive advantage by keeping an opponent unprepared; Z just have to be ready for it.
Anyways, in summary: I still don't see how FF is OP; I just see suboptimal scouting and decision-making by July, compared to flawless execution by MC.
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Instead of putting the blame on force fields, I think a better change would actually to make warpgates increase their "cooldown" the farther away they warp units to. This would weaken the 4/6 gate pushes that are so dominant right now, making reinforcements from the protoss take longer to get there, as well as actually putting some thought in warpgates. As of right now, a proxy pylon is essentially the equivelent of proxying all your gateways at the same location, with a more "instant" production.
The warpgate mechanic would still have huge benefit, but now there would be more reason to strategically use warpgates (IE spreading them out over expos for shorter delay time when defending, while still being useful for crucial reinforcements at far-off places).
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I like the idea of giving Queens a "dispel" skill. That could break force-fields. Since queens are so slow, it is unlikely to be used offensively. Make it like 75 energy so you will only have the ability to use it if you are saving energy.
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what about reducing the size and width of the force fields?
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i havent read though the all of the thread but watchin July losing to MC was painful and im a T player it was as u said pure carnage and there was nothing he couldve done better, i mean i give credit to MC for being great at using FF but in reality how hard can it be to split armies?
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Forcefields really are not the issue because, as stated, protoss have to spend a massive amount of gas to reach those number of sentries. Other races could easily get as much, if not more gas before the protoss arrive at their base.
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Forcefields should overwrite themselves such that there cannot be any overlap. Missing forcefields should punish the Protoss user a lot more, and if a misplaced forcefield can cause the first one to dissipate, a lot more precision will be needed in order to abuse this mechanic to the fullest.
Although this doesn't solve the issue of a skill-capped player using forcefields.
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On March 20 2011 12:30 CocoA wrote:
i havent read though the all of the thread but watchin July losing to MC was painful and im a T player it was as u said pure carnage and there was nothing he couldve done better, i mean i give credit to MC for being great at using FF but in reality how hard can it be to split armies?
He could have done a lot of things better. Before the game it was known July's zvp wasn't nearly as good as MC's PvAnything. He could have got hydra range for one. He played right into MC's games. July is a great player and I think in the next season or two, he will have GSL championship. This GSL he made mistakes throughout the whole tourney.
Dropping FF's is about as hard as doing a drop with marines. Just gotta know when to throw them down at the right time 
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On March 20 2011 10:11 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 09:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
We should nerf FF by telling Zergs that they can research Burrow or get Mutalisks. We should also nerf FF by telling Terran they can get EMP.
No other change is needed. Just because MC has incredible FF execution and great micro doesn't mean that we need everyone to start complaining about it.
/discussion yeah cus there's plenty of time to get borrow and mutas against a 4 gate and FFing a ramp over and over is so hard to execute. ..seriously?
L2stop4gate?
Also having your army at your expansion rather then up on the cliff when you expand helps.... SERIOUSLY!!!! lol.
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On March 20 2011 10:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
So basically, don't be so greedy early on with droning up. And within three minutes or so after that, you can definitely have burrow. So yes. Seriously.
Droning up is the only way to keep up in economy with protoss taking his natural.
And besides roach/speedling all-ins, getting an econ advantage is the only way to win the game as zerg.
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EPT
