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This all really boils down to skill levels.
Are forcefields broken at mid-masters and lower? Probably not. I think they add some cool flavor. The problem is when you get a player such as MC that comes somewhat close to using them to their full potential. That's when the problem is made apparent. Thinking back I'm not really sure what July should have done different to affect the outcome of the series. Sentries coupled with blink makes the protoss army so incredibly cost efficient that I'm really at a lose on how to counter it. You can transition from it so easily as well.
If others adapt this style I think we'll see a pvt finals next gsl unless someone comes up with a counter to it, but I'm not sure what the counter is.
I guess the tl;dr is basically:
The push can be somewhat volatile with how many sentries there are in there. They're easily killed. But if you control it just right the zerg cannot counter it. The Zerg has to rely on the Protoss making a mistake.
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Yeah, im pretty concerned about FFs down the road(1-2 years) when your average joe will nail 99.99% of his forcefields perfectly, MC showed us how powerful it is when used correctly.
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On March 20 2011 07:35 hidiliho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote:
I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more. 1 of 2 things will happen. 1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
you mean like toss need T3 unit to counter T1 terran?
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How many people honestly thought July stood a chance against MC? A very small numbers. I didnt watch the finals because i was too tired to last night and i knew what the result would be. I dont understand how 5 different forcefield threads can pop up just because of the finals, unless MC went pure sentry all 5 games and won like that. MC is one of the best players in the world, if not the best right now, July was a huge underdog, with an aggressive style that MC knows how to fight against. On the TL "ask the pros" thread, 2 maybe 3 people said july would win, and even their reasoning was i want a zerg to win because it would be cool, not because hes the better player.
The problem with sentries is much like the problem with orbital commands, you need the forcefields and mules early game to keep up and not die, but late game they are extremely powerful because they give you a lot of extra flexibility. If forcefields were changed for the worse, there is little chance a protoss could survive a stim push because they need to be able to split the terran army and kill it.
As i dont play zerg, i dont know what can be done in that respect, but as terran, a good solution is to get fast thors, since theyre good against everything. I know how hard it is for zerg to get hive tech before super late game, and even then, ultras and broodlords and underwhelming.
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On March 20 2011 08:27 pwnasaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 08:24 cheesemaster wrote:On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote:
Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field.
Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly. I agree, july zerg poked a few times minutes before the push and saw mass sentries he should have immediatley teched up and researched tunneling claws it completely negates forcefields and MC didnt make a single observer the entire game as far as i remember. Even if he just had burrow before those engagments (not half way through ) he would have faired way better. I dont think blizzard is going to change forcefields anytime soon based on 1 finals, i didnt hear that many complaints about them before the finals i mean of course you hear forcefields are incredibly strong but not so many complaints about it being completely overpowered (wich i dont beleive it is). If july had tunneling claws in any of those engagements and popped up right on top of all the sentries they would be gone in seconds, and mc's army was mostly composed of sentries so he wouldnt have stood a chance, that and he didnt make enough spines led to the demise of july. It's not realistic to have tunneling claws out in time for a 6 gate - in fact I'd say it's even impossible (while maintaining a half-decent economy). As you can see from the finals last night, the 6 gate hits RIGHT as speed is finishing for roaches (along with burrow) assuming both were started right at lair with standard lair timing. It is extremely realistic to have burrow, though, which 100% negates FF with no detection.
Yea i was more talking about the shakuras game for the tunneling claws i should have specified. Im in platinum and i suck but ive had a zerg have tunneling claws by the time my 4 gate hits before and he won its not a very good example since the level of play is so much different but you defenetly could have tunneling claws its just weather it is to much of an investment to get that early wich is up in the air id say since mc's army consisted of mostly sentries when he first engaged and sentries do pretty badly if roaches pop up right on top of them. but burrow alone would have completely changed the effectiveness of mc's 6 gate pushes, without burrow they were "super effective"
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On March 20 2011 08:28 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:58 pwnasaurus wrote:
The first game shouldn't really come into discussion here - MC played a huge, huge mind trick on July, so I don't think it's fair to discuss the power of FF in that one.
Well the fact that forcefields can be so potent on the offense did play a rather large role in that game tbh. In a hypothetical world where forcefields are a purely defensive spell for example, making 7 sentries to trick the zerg into believing that you are 3gate expanding, but then attacking with those sentries, would be significantly weaker. The reason that trick worked, was because the sentries are awesome defensive units, but also work very well on the offensive. Imagine if cannons had been built instead of sentries. It would also had been a great defense, and zerg would also have thought that it was an expand. But the cannons would have been unable to be used in the offensive role that the sentries took that game. The more versatile a unit is, the harder it is to know exactly what someone is doing when you see those units, and the easier it is for the person building these units to trik his opponent.
So you want to dumb the game down so mindgames are not possible? + Show Spoiler +Honestly speaking from a neutral perspective it just seemed like MC was on step ahead of july. He totally outclassed him and the result was expected by most people who understand the game. what was it like 23-6 pros or something that favored MC, so a 4-1 result wasnt exactly surprising anyone. I agree ZvP favors P but the reason is not sentries.
People need to let the game play out and see how the pros respond to builds and adapt. Its like freshmen college students attempting to discuss PhD material. While they may have some core basics down, they have not dedicated the time and do not have the understanding the pros have.
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On March 20 2011 08:31 KhAlleB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:35 hidiliho wrote:On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote:
I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more. 1 of 2 things will happen. 1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters. you mean like toss need T3 unit to counter T1 terran?
maybe you should upgrade weps+shields
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United States15275 Posts
It seems like every thread on this subject ends with "nerf forcefields in X fashion". Considering that the forcefield OP discussion was dead in the water before the GSL finals, it's not the forcefields that are the issue.
The bigger concern is the lack of options on hatchery tech. Sentry play is optional but completely natural considering that the cybernetics core is needed to open up the entire Protoss tech tree, and FF doesn't have to be researched to be used. Meanwhile Terran players can build the GA immediately after barracks and get Snipe/EMP with a little waiting time. And Zerg gets...Queens. Units that cannot travel off-creep and take forever to make.
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That is a good point, and one I hadn't fully realized. MC, however, was fielding several stalkers (several more than you would have in a 3-gate expand), and July also could have potentially been able to tell something was up when he saw so many units, along with the really aggressive stance MC was taking with them - a level of aggression I have never seen with a standard 3-gate expand.
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July played it wrong that's pretty much all. A perfectly timed 6 gate push with blink coming as you are attacking will probably always beat hydra ling. Burrowed roaches pretty much negates forcefields and they're cheaper and faster to get out.
Any high masters protoss will tell you that sentries are only cheap early game. If you were to lose a good amount of them from an emp, second wave of mnm or roaches, your mid to end game will be very weak.
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On March 20 2011 08:34 MadCatZ wrote:
maybe you should upgrade weps+shields
maybe you should get overlord drops
see how that logic works?...
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On March 20 2011 08:39 Zidane wrote:
July played it wrong that's pretty much all. A perfectly timed 6 gate push with blink coming as you are attacking will probably always beat hydra ling. Burrowed roaches pretty much negates forcefields and they're cheaper and faster to get out.
Any high masters protoss will tell you that sentries are only cheap early game. If you were to lose a good amount of them from an emp, second wave of mnm or roaches, your mid to end game will be very weak.
Bingo. IMO July played absolutely horribly, except in the game on Terminus. And even in that game, if MC had stopped at 2-3 pheonixes, he would've possibly held with a collosus and some extra gateway units.
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On March 20 2011 08:34 VenerableSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 08:28 morimacil wrote:On March 20 2011 07:58 pwnasaurus wrote:
The first game shouldn't really come into discussion here - MC played a huge, huge mind trick on July, so I don't think it's fair to discuss the power of FF in that one.
Well the fact that forcefields can be so potent on the offense did play a rather large role in that game tbh. In a hypothetical world where forcefields are a purely defensive spell for example, making 7 sentries to trick the zerg into believing that you are 3gate expanding, but then attacking with those sentries, would be significantly weaker. The reason that trick worked, was because the sentries are awesome defensive units, but also work very well on the offensive. Imagine if cannons had been built instead of sentries. It would also had been a great defense, and zerg would also have thought that it was an expand. But the cannons would have been unable to be used in the offensive role that the sentries took that game. The more versatile a unit is, the harder it is to know exactly what someone is doing when you see those units, and the easier it is for the person building these units to trik his opponent. So you want to dumb the game down so mindgames are not possible?
I didnt say that. I didnt say anything about changing the game, in fact.
Im just mentioning the fact that sentries being so powerful both on offense and defense did play a big role in that first match, because its only thanks to the sentries that the protoss was able to trick zerg, while losing so little in offense.
Its the same thing with other units too. If a zerg makes spine crawlers to defend and "trick" the opponent, when in fact he wants to attack, its a significant cost to his offense. The trick means his opponent is less prepared, but his offensive army is also much weaker.
In that game, the nexus cancel cost some money, making his offensive army weaker by 1 zealot. The sentries, while they did help trick the zerg, were in fact not weakening the toss army much, if at all.
You are the one talking about dumbing the game down, I made no suggestions, n balance statements, and so on, just helping explain what actually happened, and what allowed it to happen and be so powerful.
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Why not give hydras an ability to deal with forcefields like ram or something? It would make the game more dynamic, would only affect zvp, and doesn't come out until tier 2. It would make hydras more useful, and make micro more exciting.
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Nice article! I do think forcefields are a bit too strong considering how easy they are to get. I also really do agree with the aspect of how they go against RTS fundamentals. Perhaps if they required a lot of skill to pull off that would be nice but...planting a forcefield anywhere (i.e. a ramp) isn't exactly difficult.
Funny enough, I thought of giving the sentries earlier energy start but more expensive forcefield as well! It would stall for the rushes which protoss needs, but also would require more skill and would be less abusable offensively.
Again great article, really well explained.
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On March 20 2011 08:52 Yogurt wrote:
Why not give hydras an ability to deal with forcefields like ram or something? It would make the game more dynamic, would only affect zvp, and doesn't come out until tier 2. It would make hydras more useful, and make micro more exciting.
![[image loading]](http://andrewromanblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/arrow-down.jpg)
Suggesting changes out of the blue is silly.
A better idea, would be to examine the uses of forcefields, then see if some are too strong or too weak, and then only suggest changes once the actual problems have been identified
Here is off the top of my had some things you can do with forcefields:
- Delay an attack
- Delay reinforcements
- Split an army in half, to be able to take on an army roughly twice as powerful as yours, defensively.
- Split an army in half, to be able to take on an army roughly twice as powerful as yours, ofensively.
- Safely retreat your army when you are in a losing battle.
- Prevent your opponent from retreating with his army when he is in a losing battle.
- Nullify melee units
- Make it easier to abuse a range advantage when your units can shoot further than your opponent's units.
- Stop units from spawning (wehn placed on top of eggs for example)
- Screw up the movement AI of all enemy units in a fight that involves forcefields
- Make it impossible for your oponent to have a positional advantage (nulifying concaves, and surrounds)
- Make it possible for your army to get a positional advantage.
- Prevent/stop workers from mining
- Stop workers from repairing
- Prevent workers from placing structures
- Im sure Im missing a few, forcefields are pretty versatile
So before randomly throwing out ideas like "no forcefields on creep!", or "1 forcefield only per sentry" etc, it would be a good idea to look at this list, add to it if needed, then decide which ones are needed (if any), and which ones are too strong/shouldnt exist (if any), and only then try to come up with a solution, explaining why that solution would be the best, how it would fix the problem you identified, and how it would leave the needed uses unaffected.
Im not in favor of balance QQ, and balance suggestions. But if really you need to do it, at least do it properly, in a somewhat constructive manner, instead of randomly throwing suggestions around.
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rofl do any of you that are suggesting a ff nerf play protoss? do you understand how vital they are to surviving all early pressure in every matchup? Don't talk about nerfing a game mechanic that is perfectly fine as is (and has been argued before and was dead in the water before last night) just because you see 1 person who has extremely good control, something that only 1% of the people here would be able to replicate.
Seriously the amount of QQ in this forum is absurd. How about everyone just learns to adapt to the game instead of trying to theorycraft a balance for a race that you don't understand the mechanisms/timings of. So pathetic how every bit of skill turns into "WOW OP NERF NEEDED NOW" instead of a solid discussion on how to combat that strategy.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned or not but, how about not being able to place forcefields on creep?
protoss keeps its defense and no nerfs to ff vs terran, it will give zerg incentive to keep a good creep spread and will stop blocking of the zergs ramp in the early game.
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On March 20 2011 08:31 KhAlleB wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:35 hidiliho wrote:On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote:
I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more. 1 of 2 things will happen. 1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters. you mean like toss need T3 unit to counter T1 terran?
Except that you can safely get a T3 unit out early. Zerg can't get ultras out safely. Totally silly comparison.
Not that I think FF's are OP or whatever. Just saying, it's a silly comparison.
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United States15275 Posts
On March 20 2011 08:58 jaiiiii wrote:
rofl do any of you that are suggesting a ff nerf play protoss? do you understand how vital they are to surviving all early pressure in every matchup? Don't talk about nerfing a game mechanic that is perfectly fine as is (and has been argued before and was dead in the water before last night) just because you see 1 person who has extremely good control, something that only 1% of the people here would be able to replicate.
Seriously the amount of QQ in this forum is absurd. How about everyone just learns to adapt to the game instead of trying to theorycraft a balance for a race that you don't understand the mechanisms/timings of. So pathetic how every bit of skill turns into "WOW OP NERF NEEDED NOW" instead of a solid discussion on how to combat that strategy.
FFs are only necessary against T timing pushes. Zerg gets the worst of it for many reasons.
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EPT
