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On March 20 2011 08:07 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:43 SoylentCreep wrote:On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote:
baneling drops on sentry + roach = win Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF. you realize that each sentry costs each 50/100? if a P does a Sentry expand he invests therefore around 400/800 on sentry only for the purpose of getting up a nexus! zergs sure are greedy this days...
we both know with 2 gases, even 1, that is a joke early game
2 gas=200 gas/min=4 sentries
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On March 20 2011 07:35 hidiliho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote:
I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more. 1 of 2 things will happen. 1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
Baneling bombs are gaining a lot of popularity. They do well against heavy sentry play.
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On March 20 2011 08:07 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:43 SoylentCreep wrote:On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote:
baneling drops on sentry + roach = win Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF. you realize that each sentry costs each 50/100? if a P does a Sentry expand he invests therefore around 400/800 on sentry only for the purpose of defending his expansion? zergs sure are greedy this days...
Actually zergs are probably less greedy than ever, because there is so much they have to prepare for. If you show a replay of a good player who holds off a well timed 6-gate then I will believe you, otherwise "baneling drops on sentry + roach" doesn't seem viable.
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You pretty much live and die by how you use your forcefields.
Don't think too much into them.. some players can choke y'know.
^^
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On March 20 2011 08:10 Enervate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:35 hidiliho wrote:On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote:
I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more. 1 of 2 things will happen. 1. Zergs will find a way to adjust 2. FF will get nerfed That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters. Baneling bombs are gaining a lot of popularity. They do well against heavy sentry play.
the amount of planning(which has to go 100% according to plan) and (luck of course) that has to occur for a successful baneling drop is rediulous.
that is why pros dont do it alot
its easy to move away from a drop, you have concuct a outragous plan
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They should just remove the sentry's weapon altogether
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i am not saying that banelings are the ways to go.
i can tell you what Zerg has to do, build alot of roaches, and go in and just focus sentrys.
doesn't matter if you lose roaches, Protoss losing those sentrys early will lose him the game cause Zerglings rape everything that comes out of a gateway (yes even Zealots)
4zerlings > 1 Zealot (and with full surround even better)
no protoss will ever dare to attack you (except a std 4 gate) to attack without sentrys.
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On March 20 2011 08:13 Noise wrote:
They should just remove the sentry's weapon altogether
agreed or not attack air which would make mutas more viable
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On March 20 2011 08:07 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:43 SoylentCreep wrote:On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote:
baneling drops on sentry + roach = win Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF. you realize that each sentry costs each 50/100? if a P does a Sentry expand he invests therefore around 400/800 on sentry only for the purpose of getting up a nexus! zergs sure are greedy this days...
It's not about the gas investment, it's about the time investment. By the time you realize a 6 gate is coming (very easy to deny zerg scouting early game), there isn't enough time to get drops out - do you realize how long drops take to research, not to mention that you can't just be sitting there with 200/200 banked waiting to start drops because of the off-chance your opponent might be 6 gating you. This is such an ignorant post.
A zerg absolutely has to focus on economy early to be able to stop a 6 gate rush, and getting that economy up while getting drops + overlord speed + roaches + banelings is simply impossible.
That's why I keep advocating burrow - speed roaches are a must right at lair, and July did that every game. Burrow is also pretty much necessary, and, like FF, cannot be countered when doing a 6 gate, as the protoss will not have a robo. Someone with the control of MC would probably be able to mitigate drops of slow banes (not to mention it would be max 6-8 banes, which just barely kill a single stalker).
While baneling drops later on, especially paired with infestors for fungal, can be really good, they are simply not viable to stop a 6 gate rush.
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On March 20 2011 08:13 freetgy wrote:
i am not saying that banelings are the ways to go.
i can tell you what Zerg has to do, build alot of roaches, and go in and just focus sentrys.
doesn't matter if you lose roaches, Protoss losing those sentrys early will lose him the game in the long run your free to expand drone like for ever.
good luck making that cost efficient
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What i dont see is why EMP is so good, you have to build the seperate tech structure and it costs a rediculous amount of gas. you have to buy expensive cloak and a factory is needed for it too make nukes. ghosts should be easier to use so templar arnt so effective
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On March 20 2011 08:14 MadCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 08:13 freetgy wrote:
i am not saying that banelings are the ways to go.
i can tell you what Zerg has to do, build alot of roaches, and go in and just focus sentrys.
doesn't matter if you lose roaches, Protoss losing those sentrys early will lose him the game in the long run your free to expand drone like for ever. good luck making that cost efficient
Roaches are the most cost effective unit in the early game...in decent numbers (against P)
quite some players opt to that against P these days against Sentry expand and it works quite fine if executed well
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On March 20 2011 08:13 Noise wrote:
They should just remove the sentry's weapon altogether
Sentries do so little DPS it won't change much
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On March 20 2011 08:15 ThisGuy wrote:
What i dont see is why EMP is so good, you have to build the seperate tech structure and it costs a rediculous amount of gas. you have to buy expensive cloak and a factory is needed for it too make nukes. ghosts should be easier to use so templar arnt so effective
Lol? If you could get ghosts out without a separate tech building how in the world do you expect a protoss to hold off a 3-gate stim timing with EMP?
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such a bad OP, no proper pictures. no replays. he just says an opinion over several paragraphs then concludes without providing facts or statistics.
I smell + Show Spoiler +"july lost to forcefields. forcefields are the reason im not top 200 in NA" time to make a thread on TL.
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On March 20 2011 08:15 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 08:14 MadCatZ wrote:On March 20 2011 08:13 freetgy wrote:
i am not saying that banelings are the ways to go.
i can tell you what Zerg has to do, build alot of roaches, and go in and just focus sentrys.
doesn't matter if you lose roaches, Protoss losing those sentrys early will lose him the game in the long run your free to expand drone like for ever. good luck making that cost efficient Roaches are the most cost effective unit in the early game...in decent numbers (against P) quite some players opt to that against P these days against Sentry expand and it works quite fine if executed well
so they trap your roaches in with FF's, even if (major if) kill all the sentries you will lose your roaches since you spent time attacking 4+ sentries or atleast a good chunk of them.
its just so unprobable that your statement is rediculous on so many levels.
if you roach rush, your putting a hole into your economy
if you dont, you push out with slow roaches you lose
if you wait for roach speed, you might be able to do some damage if you catch em off gaurd, but they will have alot of units by then
at pro level
gl
this is what idra has been talking about for a while
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On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote:
Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field.
Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly.
I agree, july zerg poked a few times minutes before the push and saw mass sentries he should have immediatley teched up and researched tunneling claws it completely negates forcefields and MC didnt make a single observer the entire game as far as i remember. Even if he just had burrow before those engagments (not half way through ) he would have faired way better. I dont think blizzard is going to change forcefields anytime soon based on 1 finals, i didnt hear that many complaints about them before the finals i mean of course you hear forcefields are incredibly strong but not so many complaints about it being completely overpowered (wich i dont beleive it is).
If july had tunneling claws in any of those engagements and popped up right on top of all the sentries they would be gone in seconds, and mc's army was mostly composed of sentries so he wouldnt have stood a chance, that and he didnt make enough spines led to the demise of july.
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On March 20 2011 08:22 MadCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 08:15 freetgy wrote:On March 20 2011 08:14 MadCatZ wrote:On March 20 2011 08:13 freetgy wrote:
i am not saying that banelings are the ways to go.
i can tell you what Zerg has to do, build alot of roaches, and go in and just focus sentrys.
doesn't matter if you lose roaches, Protoss losing those sentrys early will lose him the game in the long run your free to expand drone like for ever. good luck making that cost efficient Roaches are the most cost effective unit in the early game...in decent numbers (against P) quite some players opt to that against P these days against Sentry expand and it works quite fine if executed well so they trap your roaches in with FF's, even if (major if) kill all the sentries you will lose your roaches since you spent time attacking 4+ sentries or atleast a good chunk of them. its just so unprobable that your statement is rediculous on so many levels. if you roach rush, your putting a hole into your economy if you dont, you push out with slow roaches you lose if you wait for roach speed, you might be able to do some damage if you catch em off gaurd, but they will have alot of units by then at pro level gl this is what idra has been talking about for a while
he only mentioned collosus vs corruptor and possibly hydra issues. He has never stated or implied any "unfair advantage" from sentries. AS FAR AS I KNOW, could be wrong.
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On March 20 2011 08:24 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 21:18 Markwerf wrote:
Roaches and MM are both more cost effective then gateway units straight up. Forcefields can level the playing field.
Perhaps the duration of the FF is a tiny bit too high but it really isn't too bad.
There are already enough ways as it is to combat sentries like EMP or tunneling claws, I really don't see a problem with the spell as it is. MC just used them godly. I agree, july zerg poked a few times minutes before the push and saw mass sentries he should have immediatley teched up and researched tunneling claws it completely negates forcefields and MC didnt make a single observer the entire game as far as i remember. Even if he just had burrow before those engagments (not half way through ) he would have faired way better. I dont think blizzard is going to change forcefields anytime soon based on 1 finals, i didnt hear that many complaints about them before the finals i mean of course you hear forcefields are incredibly strong but not so many complaints about it being completely overpowered (wich i dont beleive it is). If july had tunneling claws in any of those engagements and popped up right on top of all the sentries they would be gone in seconds, and mc's army was mostly composed of sentries so he wouldnt have stood a chance, that and he didnt make enough spines led to the demise of july.
It's not realistic to have tunneling claws out in time for a 6 gate - in fact I'd say it's even impossible (while maintaining a half-decent economy). As you can see from the finals last night, the 6 gate hits RIGHT as speed is finishing for roaches (along with burrow) assuming both were started right at lair with standard lair timing. It is extremely realistic to have burrow, though, which 100% negates FF with no detection.
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On March 20 2011 07:58 pwnasaurus wrote:
The first game shouldn't really come into discussion here - MC played a huge, huge mind trick on July, so I don't think it's fair to discuss the power of FF in that one.
Well the fact that forcefields can be so potent on the offense did play a rather large role in that game tbh.
In a hypothetical world where forcefields are a purely defensive spell for example, making 7 sentries to trick the zerg into believing that you are 3gate expanding, but then attacking with those sentries, would be significantly weaker.
The reason that trick worked, was because the sentries are awesome defensive units, but also work very well on the offensive.
Imagine if cannons had been built instead of sentries.
It would also had been a great defense, and zerg would also have thought that it was an expand. But the cannons would have been unable to be used in the offensive role that the sentries took that game.
The more versatile a unit is, the harder it is to know exactly what someone is doing when you see those units, and the easier it is for the person building these units to trik his opponent.
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EPT
