EPTA thorough analysis of Force Fields - Page 13
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Sixotanaka
Australia191 Posts
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latan
740 Posts
On March 20 2011 05:45 IVN wrote: The most important use of the FFs IS to split armies. How many times have you heard Artosis and Tasteless talking about how FFs should be used? "Split army --> lots in front ---> kill the part of the army ----> fall back" And the reason why it has to be done this way, is because w/o splitting a T/Z army gates units suffer too many losses. And since they are sooo much more costly than the equivalent Z and T units, the toss loses over time, cause he has to dish out more resources to replenish his army. FFs are perfectly balanced the way they are. It's the most used use of it because it obviously is the most powerful use of it, that doesn't make it the most necessary. you could still create a wall, and pick units stuck in front with the superior range of stalkers (and colo). and, you can still split armies if your opponent isn't being careful enough. u can create chokes and get a concave, or abuse colossus splash. and so on... anyway i've said what i wanted to say, thanks for responding. | ||
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Mephyss
Brazil128 Posts
About the counters first, I see 2 "soft counters" to it, Burrow and dropships pick up, but both burrowed units or units inside the dropships cant attack making this more of a workaround instead of a real counter and the dropships are too dangerous if the opponent has good ammount of stalkers and burrowed units are just too dumb to micro (mainly cause its the same hotkey for burrow and unburrow). most of time the zerg will simple cant reach his burrowed units again on the field if there are a bunch on top of it. The hard counters are Thors and Ultralisk. but if the Toss is doing a 2 base timing push and if he sees a Ultra. well. just go kill it and roll the base. What I mean about the "one side" spell is that is all on the Protoss player hand. he uses FF fine. he is in advantage and there is not much he opponent can do. He uses it badly, he dies. But most of the big moments in game is when both players are trying to outmicro each other. Few examples. Banelings against marines. Blings counter marines. but marine micro minimazes or even the damage. Thors counter mutars. but micro allows mutas to not fear thors. Hydras beat Stalkers. good blink micro allows stalkers to win. Now FF just kill any real micro from the opponent. He cant do much other than pray for a FF miss which in Pro level. its asking too much. One thing that could be done to help this a bit and give the opponent something to micro against is link the FF to the caster sentry. I mean. sentry dies. all his FF dies too. This gives some micro opportunity for the opponent as in focus fire the low energy sentries and make the P treat sentries more like HT, in the back of the army. One example of how this would change last night games. On first game on metal. MC simple cut all main base reinforcements with chain FF over the ramp making only the inital zerg army to fight and natural reinforcements. Problem is natural army is simple to small to so any real damage over the P army and the real army is trapped on the real base. but if the FF was linked to the sentry. the natural army could go and hunt for them instead of trying to damage stalkers or zealots | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
My suggestion would be to reduce the FF time. I mean 15 seconds is a really long time. Maybe reduce it ot like 10 or 8 seconds and I think it would be a little more balanced. But I still like the overall concept of FF. It's just that in it's current state it is too powerful in the hands of good players. | ||
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paradisefar
Canada20 Posts
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CuirassEU
Germany24 Posts
On March 20 2011 06:04 happyness wrote: I agree completley with the OP. I hope blizz reads that post. My suggestion would be to reduce the FF time. I mean 15 seconds is a really long time. Maybe reduce it ot like 10 or 8 seconds and I think it would be a little more balanced. But I still like the overall concept of FF. It's just that in it's current state it is too powerful in the hands of good players. I think they last longer than most fights last. I also think if you reduce the time they last to be less effective like only 4 seconds this might be problematic in the defence. I also feel like forcefield take alot of speed out of the gmae in some points of the game. I think armysplitting in a battle is ok, but forcielfd in a chocke seem to be problematic and can make a game look onesided. The more i think about it the more i like the idea of giving forcefields hp and beind destructable. Maybe they need alot of hp like an Archon but that would still make me feel less helpless when one FF is blocking my chocke while the protoss destroyes my expo. | ||
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TheRiotXL
23 Posts
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push. Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose. - A quick edit - I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote: As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes. Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push. Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose. - A quick edit - I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread. I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good. | ||
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
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TheRiotXL
23 Posts
On March 20 2011 06:54 happyness wrote: I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good. Why not emp the sentries? On the terran sides of things. | ||
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hidiliho
Canada685 Posts
On March 20 2011 06:57 TheRiotXL wrote: An honest question, why not emp the sentries? Good point Terans have EMP. But what is Zerg's response to Mass FF? | ||
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purecarnagge
719 Posts
The whole hi i'm protoss and im going to spam FF from 10 sentries is getting old... I think FF ramps shouldn't occur. I think the bottoms should be unFFable as well. I think you should have to get high ground vision to FF the top of the ramp to block enemy forces from joining the battle. July would have been better off making 15 spine crawlers... | ||
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hidiliho
Canada685 Posts
On March 20 2011 06:54 happyness wrote: I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good. If I were to guess. Blizzard made FF for defensive purposes but did not anticipate the power of Offensive forcefields. | ||
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karlmengsk
Canada230 Posts
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Dont Panic
United States194 Posts
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IVN
534 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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paradisefar
Canada20 Posts
Or put it this way, ff's have the ability to change the map temporarily by instantly creating impenetrable buildings anywhere, what other spells do that? I suggest more units able to break ff's, other than massive units, eg, tanks, immortals, queens, and bulidings. Or the sentry that has casted any ff cannot attack. Or make it work like cloak ability which cost certain energy to cast but also energy to maintain it, so to cast multiple ff needs a lot of energy saved up, this way once the sentry dies its casted ff's die as well. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On March 20 2011 06:57 TheRiotXL wrote: Why not emp the sentries? On the terran sides of things. True. Terrans at least have that option. But zerg has nothing, and FF is MORE powerful against zerg, even if terran didn't have EMP. On March 20 2011 07:00 karlmengsk wrote: Increase Roach Range! LOL Or maybe blizz should change the bunker build time. That seems to balance everything. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On March 20 2011 07:04 paradisefar wrote: forcefields change the combat terrain and positioning at will. Enough said, what other spells do that?? Positioning is the foremost important thing in any battle, and ff's just creates any unfavorable position on demand to the opponent force. Or put it this way, ff's have the ability to change the map temporarily by instantly creating impenetrable buildings anywhere, what other spells do that? I suggest more units able to break ff's, other than massive units, eg, tanks, immortals, queens, and bulidings. Or the sentry that has casted any ff cannot attack. Or make it work like cloak ability which cost certain energy to cast but also energy to maintain it, so to cast multiple ff needs a lot of energy saved up, this way once the sentry dies its casted ff's die as well. Srsly man, upgrade burrow and burrow movement for your roaches and stop QQing. | ||
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Disarm22
United States151 Posts
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