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On March 20 2011 05:02 Stiver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 04:37 IVN wrote:
IMO FFs are perfectly balanced against Zerg. July lost because he never got his burrow and burrow movement on time. He lost, because MC is a better player, not because of FFs. Okay dude, seriously. Start a game as zerg, and count how long it takes to get a bunch of roaches + burrow + roach speed + tunneling claws. Do it. Now compare that number with how fast a 4gate/6 gate comes. Okay great. That is why July just never seemed to bother. It is impossible.
You are wrong. It is possible. In fact, in the one game, he had burrow, despite making a spire and a hydra den. Now think what he could have done, if he had invested that gas properly.
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On March 20 2011 04:46 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 04:42 latan wrote:
I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage. FFs would be outright useless.
you could still use them to block your ramp in a rush or cut the retreat path, basically it would have the same uses but it would be harder to pull off, xcept splitting armies, that I agree would turn into very hard to do. but useless?
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Havnt read every single page but how about this:
-Forcefields can no longer be placed on creep.
This way zerg, with fast creep spread, can prevent his ramp from getting blocked and protoss can still defend against early aggresion from stimmed mm´s or a 7rr.
It could also potentially mean a huge battle in the late game for toss to prevent creep spread and for zerg to keep applying it.
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On March 20 2011 05:06 latan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 04:46 IVN wrote:On March 20 2011 04:42 latan wrote:
I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage. FFs would be outright useless. you could still use them to block your ramp in a rush or cut the retreat path, basically it would have the same uses but it would be harder to pull off, xcept splitting armies, that I agree would turn into very hard to do. but useless?
Yes, useless. Getting Reaper speed is also not impossible...it can be done. But you aint gonna see speed reapers any time soon, cause theyre useless.
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On March 20 2011 04:51 GiygaS wrote:
What if FFs, by one sentry, could only be put down if in a psionic matrix? Like, if a sentry is within a pylon, it can place as many ffs as he wants. But if not, the sentry can only be placed one at a time. Twilight council upgrade to get rid of this limitation.
It would still be nearly impossible to forcefield your ramp (the most important defensive function for FF), since pylons usually shouldn't be used as the wall itself... too easy to get sniped and then your walling gateways/ tech would get unpowered.
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On March 19 2011 21:07 shadowboxer wrote:
On topic, forcefield should be given at the very least a cooldown when used per sentry. So if you had 3 sentries you couldn't theoretically throw down 4 forcefields per sentry if you had the energy for it, you could throw down exactly 3. Forcefields are 100% necessary for gateway units and with this change you can still block chokes, you can still punish someone for engaging badly, but you can't entirely save yourself from making stupid mistakes or cut a late game army in half with your deathball + 8 sentries that you got 6 minutes into the game.
A huge problem for zerg in particular is that when they lost lurkers, they lost choke/position control. This is what tanks give terran and what sentries give protoss. Protoss gets to engage safely because you control a point of the map and then just forcefield them away and retreat if you can't beat their army. Or you can completely defend a small choke with a significantly smaller force than your opponents.
I feel like Terran can deal with forcefields just fine(baiting w/ stim, ghosts w/ emp, drops to abuse mobility) but Zerg literally don't have an answer to them unless Protoss makes A LOT of mistakes.
Good post. This sums it up the core of the issue very well imo
Give Zerg something to defend against forcefields or at least a reliable way to apply pressure to a sentry heavy build and forcefields are perfectly fine.
I've been thinking a slight boost to hydra speed / armor (to start) is would to wonders for the game, for a lot of reasons - this FF issue being one of the primary ones.
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What if July got banglings with burrow? then set let 1-3 scattered away from his natural where protoss would end up. then blow up all the sentries?
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On March 20 2011 05:05 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 05:02 Stiver wrote:On March 20 2011 04:37 IVN wrote:
IMO FFs are perfectly balanced against Zerg. July lost because he never got his burrow and burrow movement on time. He lost, because MC is a better player, not because of FFs. Okay dude, seriously. Start a game as zerg, and count how long it takes to get a bunch of roaches + burrow + roach speed + tunneling claws. Do it. Now compare that number with how fast a 4gate/6 gate comes. Okay great. That is why July just never seemed to bother. It is impossible. You are wrong. It is possible. In fact, in the one game, he had burrow, despite making a spire and a hydra den. Now think what he could have done, if he had invested that gas properly.
The crevase game was the only blatantly quick 6 gate. MC moved out when Roach speed was less than half done. That's close to two minutes before roaches will be able to move while burrowed. No, July didn't have an opportunity to get when the 6 gate came. If he had started researching it, his roaches would all be dead when it finishes.
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It is very difficult reading these discussions when so many people are so blatantly focused on their own games and not with true balance of the game. It is very easy to spot both (P) players who are clearly just worried that they will need to do something different. Then there are (Z) players who are coming up with solutions that just make everything easier for them.
As a Zerg player, I dislike the current state of FFs. I completely understand their importance in in the protoss Gateway army. Having an ability that is so spammable, so easy to use, and just so insanely powerful seems wrong.
It will be difficult to shift FFs to a more acceptable role in the game, and protoss would need to be adjusted properly to give them proper options for early/mid/late and offense/defense. I think maps also really accentuate the problem with it, maps like Backwater Gulch. It is incredibly easy, and takes no skill/risk for a Protoss to block off the ramp and keep it blocked for an extended period of time.
Also, the game didn't change in the last 48 hours, nor in the last month or so (forget the date of the last balance patch) and that didn't change FF either. I think that even though the game hasn't changed, this was still a focal point of so much attention of the community, and we were able to see a single ability have what felt like too much of an impact on the most important series in the last couple months.
I would love for there to be a solution that was fair for all matchups, but that changes (not necessarily a direct nerf) FF.
Options I have read in this thread:
-FF Channeled
-Increase Energy
-Limit to 1 on the field per Sentry
-Change base cost and and starting energy to 75
-Cooldown
-Reduce duration
-Require the hexagons to clear
It seems like people that are suggesting changes aren't taking into consideration what the intended function of FF is, and that leads them to making suggestions that are not helpful. I think before we go making decisions for Blizzard on how to balance, we need to agree on exactly what role the FF is supposed to accomplish for (P), and distinguish what roles it is doing too well for them, then balance around that.
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It should be changed so that sentries throw down destructible rocks instead of Forcefields, that way blizzard gets to feed their destructible rock fetish, and zerg gets to break down more rocks.
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Protoss are at the moment the most nerfed and the weakest race early game, and despite that, the best player in the world is a protoss. And THAT ist what soooo man zerg and terran brains cant comprehend nor tolerate. That's why all the nerf demands are coming.
Yesterday absolutely no one was saying anything about FFs, but now that a protoss player, the best sc2 player alive, has demonstrated his mad skillz, and torn apart the "old BW-fag" favorite July (which Im a fan of, btw), the QQing of epic proportions has ensued.
And the best part: MC did it all without resorting to allegedly super imba, insanely OP and utterly broken units like colossi and HTs. For that alone, I will always be a MC fan. The huge zerg and terran tears are music to my evil ears.
You thought the final was boring? Well I must say I perversely and utterly enjoyed it, knowing that these kind of discussions will follow.
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For me as a player i feel always like forcefield last for ages. My units are blocked in my base like forever with these 12 second forcefields.
i see its problematic to reduce the duration of them, without making them useless. I was frustrated day one to play against forcefields in my chocke and the options to overcome them, like ultralisks, overlord drops, or burrowmovement always feels like alot to do against this one spell, especialy as a beginner.
Because i very often feel helpless traped in my base i always wished for the abbility to destroy the forcefields.
Destructable forcefields wich have hp is what i thought of this matter.
They must pull agro maybe (or maybe not - not sure) also must have enough hp to be strong in the beginning to be able to be used against rushes but not being as powerfull in later stages of the game when stronger units of protoss are on the field.
Maybe thats not a good idea because i didnt think it rhough alot but its something that would make me able to do something active against them in certain stages of the game.
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On March 20 2011 05:25 Hozer wrote:
It is very difficult reading these discussions when so many people are so blatantly focused on their own games and not with true balance of the game. It is very easy to spot both (P) players who are clearly just worried that they will need to do something different. Then there are (Z) players who are coming up with solutions that just make everything easier for them.
As a Zerg player, I dislike the current state of FFs. I completely understand their importance in in the protoss Gateway army. Having an ability that is so spammable, so easy to use, and just so insanely powerful seems wrong.
It will be difficult to shift FFs to a more acceptable role in the game, and protoss would need to be adjusted properly to give them proper options for early/mid/late and offense/defense. I think maps also really accentuate the problem with it, maps like Backwater Gulch. It is incredibly easy, and takes no skill/risk for a Protoss to block off the ramp and keep it blocked for an extended period of time.
Also, the game didn't change in the last 48 hours, nor in the last month or so (forget the date of the last balance patch) and that didn't change FF either. I think that even though the game hasn't changed, this was still a focal point of so much attention of the community, and we were able to see a single ability have what felt like too much of an impact on the most important series in the last couple months.
I would love for there to be a solution that was fair for all matchups, but that changes (not necessarily a direct nerf) FF.
Options I have read in this thread:
-FF Channeled
-Increase Energy
-Limit to 1 on the field per Sentry
-Change base cost and and starting energy to 75
-Cooldown
-Reduce duration
-Require the hexagons to clear
It seems like people that are suggesting changes aren't taking into consideration what the intended function of FF is, and that leads them to making suggestions that are not helpful. I think before we go making decisions for Blizzard on how to balance, we need to agree on exactly what role the FF is supposed to accomplish for (P), and distinguish what roles it is doing too well for them, then balance around that.
Excellent post. I completely agree. *Goes to create new thread*
On March 20 2011 05:07 DaCruise wrote:
Havnt read every single page but how about this:
-Forcefields can no longer be placed on creep.
This way zerg, with fast creep spread, can prevent his ramp from getting blocked and protoss can still defend against early aggresion from stimmed mm´s or a 7rr.
It could also potentially mean a huge battle in the late game for toss to prevent creep spread and for zerg to keep applying it.
I really like this idea. Like, a LOT. Sentries are intended to be defensive units (hence the name and other implications from Blizzard) to help Protoss take control of the battlefield near chokes and other terrain. Using Sentries on Creep to completely negate a defender's advancing troops seems to be unintended and against their ideal role (I'm a Protoss player, btw).
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On March 19 2011 21:07 shadowboxer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:19 STALLONEZONE wrote:
So I guess since theres about 50 threads complaining about FF today, MC won huh?
Thanks for spoiling the finals for me with your aspergers TL.net + Show Spoiler +There's no way you honestly thought July was going to win. There wasn't a soul on the planet that did.
+ Show Spoiler +
On topic, I feel it should be nerfed like Disruption web was. I believe the spell itself should be shortened in duration.
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I think an interesting idea that I haven't seen brought up is making FF's target-able and giving them some amount of health. Now I understand that this would leave protoss vulnerable to early stim play but it looks as if stim will be pushed back 30 seconds and I'm not saying that they should have a small amount of health either. This could help the abuse that is happening in ZvP while created a new dynamic in early TvP and PvP.
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It's funny how people tend to focus on one thing and one thing only, being how effective FFs were in those games and forget to think about why they were so effective.
Game 1: July got fooled and overdroned which costed him the game. I am thinking soon zergs will start to sacrifice a little economy and pump drones only from the main hatch while stockpiling larvae in the natural hatch so ramp FF will be useless
Game 2: July didn't wait for his burrow to finish (which was already too late to start with) and tried to save his 3rd hatch. If he waited it, he'd render the sentries pretty much useless given the big ramp @ Cravesse
Game 4: Being on the lead 2:1 MC risked all in (only all in in the series) and it paid off. It might very much turn out the other way around if that overlord was 1 hex on the left.
Game 5: After finaling stopping the timing push July didn't make the hydra range (i think) and fought off creep. 100% his mistake.
Put all these together and that's why sentries were so effective in these games. Not just because they are strolng but because of everything else. Kudos for MC for playing his opponent so smartly.
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On March 20 2011 05:08 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 05:06 latan wrote:On March 20 2011 04:46 IVN wrote:On March 20 2011 04:42 latan wrote:
I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage. FFs would be outright useless. you could still use them to block your ramp in a rush or cut the retreat path, basically it would have the same uses but it would be harder to pull off, xcept splitting armies, that I agree would turn into very hard to do. but useless? Yes, useless. Getting Reaper speed is also not impossible...it can be done. But you aint gonna see speed reapers any time soon, cause theyre useless.
dunno man, seem like you're just being a troll, maybe argue your point a bit more?
most of what is said about forcefield is that it is necessary to hold off early rushes, a change like this wouldn't take that use away, or make it significantly harder. you can still use them to create chokes as you see fit, you can still block your opponents ramp to prevent reinforcements.
overall i've never read here that splitting armies is an ability necessary for protoss, IMO what i'm proposing would even cause for more creative use of it. It would also give the opponent the chance to prevent them, balancing things out.
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On March 20 2011 05:38 latan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 05:08 IVN wrote:On March 20 2011 05:06 latan wrote:On March 20 2011 04:46 IVN wrote:On March 20 2011 04:42 latan wrote:
I'd like someone to comment on my thought that forcefield could be changed so they can't be casted on top of units or other forcefields. i think this would change a lot because it wouldn't be able to split armies apart so easily and it would also bring some way for the opponent to try to stop the forcefield usage. FFs would be outright useless. you could still use them to block your ramp in a rush or cut the retreat path, basically it would have the same uses but it would be harder to pull off, xcept splitting armies, that I agree would turn into very hard to do. but useless? Yes, useless. Getting Reaper speed is also not impossible...it can be done. But you aint gonna see speed reapers any time soon, cause theyre useless. dunno man, seem like you're just being a troll, maybe argue your point a bit more? most of what is said about forcefield is that it is necessary to hold off early rushes, a change like this wouldn't take that use away, or make it significantly harder. you can still use them to create chokes as you see fit, you can still block your opponents ramp to prevent reinforcements.
overall i've never read here that splitting armies is an ability necessary for protoss, IMO what i'm proposing would even cause for more creative use of it. It would also give the opponent the chance to prevent them, balancing things out.
The most important use of the FFs IS to split armies. How many times have you heard Artosis and Tasteless talking about how FFs should be used?
"Split army --> lots in front ---> kill the part of the army ----> fall back"
And the reason why it has to be done this way, is because w/o splitting a T/Z army gates units suffer too many losses. And since they are sooo much more costly than the equivalent Z and T units, the toss loses over time, cause he has to dish out more resources to replenish his army.
FFs are perfectly balanced the way they are.
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Seriously... Are we forgetting July trashed vanvanszenith? Last time i checked it wasnt a PvP finals. This is basically a ff balance qq thread. Maybe MC is actually the better player just maybe.
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On March 20 2011 05:54 VTPerfect wrote:
Seriously... Are we forgetting July trashed vanvanszenith? Last time i checked it wasnt a PvP finals. This is basically a ff balance qq thread. Maybe MC is actually the better player just maybe.
He also trashed a faaaaaaar better P player than VVZenith. Namely Hongun. I dont remember anyone saying FFs are imba back then...
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EPT
