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On March 20 2011 06:59 hidiliho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 06:57 TheRiotXL wrote:On March 20 2011 06:54 happyness wrote:On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote:
As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit -
I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread. I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good. An honest question, why not emp the sentries? Good point Terans have EMP. But what is Zerg's response to Mass FF?
Overrun them, like always.
But can you be more specific? At what point in the game? Isn't Zerg the race that especially wants to power? What's wrong with just droning up? If you're sad that FF is being used to block fast aggression against a Protoss, don't be; it's a defensive spell too. As far as in engagements later on, you have mutalisks and broodlords, baneling drops, and ultralisks. You can also flank with lower tier units and make sentries waste all their energy. Keep in mind that the more sentries a Protoss has, the fewer damage-dealing units he'll have. Sentries don't exactly attack very well, and 100 gas could be put towards two stalkers.
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On March 20 2011 07:00 hidiliho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 06:54 happyness wrote:On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote:
As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit -
I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread. I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good. If I were to guess. Blizzard made FF for defensive purposes but did not anticipate the power of Offensive forcefields.
Well I think blizz intended for them to be used offensively as well, but ya they probably didn't anticipate them to be used quite in the way MC and other protosses are now using them. Unless they wanted a spell that would cut off half of all of zerg's reinforcements.
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On March 20 2011 07:03 IVN wrote:
I have a sound balance proposal: make zergs lern how to play.
learn*
Learn to spell better when you troll
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On March 20 2011 07:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 06:59 hidiliho wrote:On March 20 2011 06:57 TheRiotXL wrote:On March 20 2011 06:54 happyness wrote:On March 20 2011 06:31 TheRiotXL wrote:
As a P user myself, I feel as though forcefields seem incredibly powerful in many compositions. But when I think about the kind of fixes people would like to see I think about the million ways I almost die to early and mid game bio or roach pushes.
Take away a protosses ability to spam forcefield and ask him to expand cost effectively in PvZ. It can't happen, we would get overran by some sort of mid game roach push. So many times in PvT, I would be absolutely dead to early bio pushes on my natural expansion because all I can build are gateway units, all of which suck against bio + stim. Without forcefield, my zealots would be 100 mineral 0 dmg dealers vs a kiting bio timing push. I realize the role of a zealot to be somewhat of a shield for my more fragile stalkers, but when the terran kites, my stalkers will rarely get the hits in necessary to deal enough damage to hold off a push.
Having said all that, I do think that something could stand being done to the forcefield. I just think it is a sensitive spell. Although it is an extremely useful offensive spell; it is an even more useful defensive spell. Just my thoughts I suppose.
- A quick edit -
I haven't read everyones suggestions. So when I say, "the kind of fixes people would like to see." I mean the kind I have most often heard outside of this thread. I agree that FF is a good defensive spell(and it is balanced defensively) but I really hate it when it is abused offensively. It shuts down reinforcements and micro for the Terran or Zerg. And the problem is that the sentries get exponentially better the more the toss has. They become near unstoppable early on if the toss is good. An honest question, why not emp the sentries? Good point Terans have EMP. But what is Zerg's response to Mass FF? Overrun them, like always. But can you be more specific? At what point in the game? Isn't Zerg the race that especially wants to power? What's wrong with just droning up? If you're sad that FF is being used to block fast aggression against a Protoss, don't be; it's a defensive spell too. As far as in engagements later on, you have mutalisks and broodlords, baneling drops, and ultralisks. You can also flank with lower tier units and make sentries waste all their energy. Keep in mind that the more sentries a Protoss has, the fewer damage-dealing units he'll have. Sentries don't exactly attack very well, and 100 gas could be put towards two stalkers.
That seems to be the problem, though -- with FF, Protoss players can dictate the aggression/passivity of the match. They can use it to turtle, but they can also use it to pressure. HuK does it often with his zealot/sentry aggression and it's extremely powerful.
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I didn't read the whole thread, but I didn't see anyone here mentioning how JulyZerg played like complete shit.
Now, I'm only a lowly masters zerg, but EVERY masters zerg knows the counter to a 6 gate: BURROW SPEED ROACHES. In every game July hit lair, and got roach speed, and a HYDRA DEN. Hydras are USELESS against a 6 gate. You absolutely NEED burrow, or you will die EVERY TIME to a 6 gate. If July had forgone the hydra den by just a small amount of time, he EASILY could've had burrow out in time - in fact in many of those game he didn't even build a single hydra, but he lost because he didn't have burrow.
July's ZvP is pretty atrocious - MC is fucking boss, and July showed that he was CLEARLY the weaker player. /thread
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Why don't make FF like buildings in the way that you cant build something over a unit.
You could still defend against rushes, and would raise the skill sealing of FF way higher.
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The name of the tab of this thread is A thorough anal...
caused an awkward moment haha
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What do you guys think about these changes:
1) Reduce FF duration to 12 seconds
2) Either a) No overlapping of FF or b) FF cast has a cooldown time of 1-3 seconds
The result is that FF are still available to toss early game so they don't auto lose to early timings, but mid and late game requires the toss to be more precise and accurate with their forcefields so that if they massed sentries, they won't be too powerful.
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In utmost seriousness - yes forcefield broken, and it should be in SC2 just as much as vulture mines should be in SCBW
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On March 19 2011 20:58 snow2.0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:55 ZeGzoR wrote:On March 19 2011 20:23 NormandyBoy wrote:
There is a very simple way of nerfing FF without breaking the protoss early game (defending rushes), just make FF like in the Raynor Party's sentry mini-game. That is to say one sentry can only cast one FF at a time, if it casts another one, the first disappears. This way, protoss players would have to cast the spell more carefully, because if you cast more FF than you have sentries, you're being inefficient. So sentrys should basicly be ramp blocker with a guardian shield? 8 sentries can still make 8 ffs, which is easily enough for most ways on the maps... but it would be much harder b/c they all need to be in the right position. probably too hard on P :E
Yes, and the utility of sentries is already QUITE taxed on larger maps where they're a further hindrance with they abhorrent movespeed and the fact that surrounding a protoss army forces TONS of forcefield, or auto-death.
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I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more.
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On March 20 2011 07:14 pwnasaurus wrote:
I didn't read the whole thread, but I didn't see anyone here mentioning how JulyZerg played like complete shit.
Now, I'm only a lowly masters zerg, but EVERY masters zerg knows the counter to a 6 gate: BURROW SPEED ROACHES. In every game July hit lair, and got roach speed, and a HYDRA DEN. Hydras are USELESS against a 6 gate. You absolutely NEED burrow, or you will die EVERY TIME to a 6 gate. If July had forgone the hydra den by just a small amount of time, he EASILY could've had burrow out in time - in fact in many of those game he didn't even build a single hydra, but he lost because he didn't have burrow.
July's ZvP is pretty atrocious - MC is fucking boss, and July showed that he was CLEARLY the weaker player. /thread
Can someone address this please? I can't possibly be the only one with this opinion. It's been known for months and months now that burrow HARD counters a 6 gate.
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On March 20 2011 07:27 pzea469 wrote:
I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts and Collossi can be made. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Don't nerf it though, all this nerfing needs to stop. Sc2 is already filled with spells that are far from game changing, lets not nerf them any more.
1 of 2 things will happen.
1. Zergs will find a way to adjust
2. FF will get nerfed
That being said, I don't think it's a fair demand for Z to have to tech to Ultras in order to deal with T1 spell casters.
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I'm not saying FF is certainly balanced, but if July had burrow when the attack came on say Crossfire, he would have won EASILY.
If they wait and go for an attack with obs:
1) zerg's economy should be strong enough to overpower
2) can tech to hydras with the economy to support it
3) tech to burrow move which makes a HUGE difference in mass sentry situations - watch some of Morrow's games if you don't believe me. He gets burrow move all the time
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Force fields are good for the game. What they do is sort of like what storms/banelings forced players to do: Spread and micro.
How about instead of attacking in a ball(thus allowing half of it to get cut off) you just attack in a straight line. Example:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/1RbWp.jpg)
Not only that it encourages more macro intensive things such as creep spread(in order to get straight to their army.)
Roach burrow, better unit positioning, creep spread, actually getting hydra range, all these are great counters to what MC did.
The reason why MC made them look so OP was that his build involved getting an abnormal amount of sentries, and the fact that July just played so bad. Engaged OFF creep with unranged hydras, constantly let his army get ff'd, and just in general played worse than MC.
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Suggesting changes out of the blue is silly.
A better idea, would be to examine the uses of forcefields, then see if some are too strong or too weak, and then only suggest changes once the actual problems have been identified 
Here is off the top of my had some things you can do with forcefields:
- Delay an attack
- Delay reinforcements
- Split an army in half, to be able to take on an army roughly twice as powerful as yours, defensively.
- Split an army in half, to be able to take on an army roughly twice as powerful as yours, ofensively.
- Safely retreat your army when you are in a losing battle.
- Prevent your opponent from retreating with his army when he is in a losing battle.
- Nullify melee units
- Make it easier to abuse a range advantage when your units can shoot further than your opponent's units.
- Stop units from spawning (wehn placed on top of eggs for example)
- Screw up the movement AI of all enemy units in a fight that involves forcefields
- Make it impossible for your oponent to have a positional advantage (nulifying concaves, and surrounds)
- Make it possible for your army to get a positional advantage.
- Prevent/stop workers from mining
- Stop workers from repairing
- Prevent workers from placing structures
- Im sure Im missing a few, forcefields are pretty versatile
So before randomly throwing out ideas like "no forcefields on creep!", or "1 forcefield only per sentry" etc, it would be a good idea to look at this list, add to it if needed, then decide which ones are needed (if any), and which ones are too strong/shouldnt exist (if any), and only then try to come up with a solution, explaining why that solution would be the best, how it would fix the problem you identified, and how it would leave the needed uses unaffected.
Im not in favor of balance QQ, and balance suggestions. But if really you need to do it, at least do it properly, in a somewhat constructive manner, instead of randomly throwing suggestions around.
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On March 20 2011 07:45 Pandain wrote:Force fields are good for the game. What they do is sort of like what storms/banelings forced players to do: Spread and micro. How about instead of attacking in a ball(thus allowing half of it to get cut off) you just attack in a straight line. Example: Not only that it encourages more macro intensive things such as creep spread(in order to get straight to their army.) Roach burrow, better unit positioning, creep spread, actually getting hydra range, all these are great counters to what MC did. The reason why MC made them look so OP was that his build involved getting an abnormal amount of sentries, and the fact that July just played so bad. Engaged OFF creep with unranged hydras, constantly let his army get ff'd, and just in general played worse than MC.
Is this post even serious? If you attack in a line the toss doesn't even need to FF...
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On March 20 2011 07:37 pwnasaurus wrote:
I'm not saying FF is certainly balanced, but if July had burrow when the attack came on say Crossfire, he would have won EASILY.
If they wait and go for an attack with obs:
1) zerg's economy should be strong enough to overpower
2) can tech to hydras with the economy to support it
3) tech to burrow move which makes a HUGE difference in mass sentry situations - watch some of Morrow's games if you don't believe me. He gets burrow move all the time
I think July did botch those last two games, but as for the first two MC looked unstoppable. In game two, for example, he hit at a time MC knew zergs usually don't have burrow finished, and it's gg from there. And july wasn't going for hydras that game.
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On March 20 2011 07:55 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 07:37 pwnasaurus wrote:
I'm not saying FF is certainly balanced, but if July had burrow when the attack came on say Crossfire, he would have won EASILY.
If they wait and go for an attack with obs:
1) zerg's economy should be strong enough to overpower
2) can tech to hydras with the economy to support it
3) tech to burrow move which makes a HUGE difference in mass sentry situations - watch some of Morrow's games if you don't believe me. He gets burrow move all the time I think July did botch those last two games, but as for the first two MC looked unstoppable. In game two, for example, he hit at a time MC knew zergs usually don't have burrow finished, and it's gg from there. And july wasn't going for hydras that game.
The first game shouldn't really come into discussion here - MC played a huge, huge mind trick on July, so I don't think it's fair to discuss the power of FF in that one.
Game 2 - maybe you need to re-watch. He gets a hydra den RIGHT at lair - if instead that had been burrow, it would've been over.
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On March 19 2011 23:43 SoylentCreep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 22:29 sincerelysLeEpy wrote:
baneling drops on sentry + roach = win Oh yeah! Great idea! You're totally right. Zerg should invest 300/300 in lair tech (+150/100) to counter tier 1,5 tech with built in FF.
you realize that each sentry costs each 50/100?
if a P does a Sentry expand he invests therefore around 400/800 on sentry only for the purpose of getting up a nexus!
zergs sure are greedy this days...
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EPT
