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I began to type this just as a reply to the post, but I would rather blog it so more people actually read this rather than just looking at the length and omitting it altogether.
I am not trying to start some sort of heated sc2/bw debate, I just would rather more people read this because I put a good amount of time into typing it and it's something that has been on my mind for a while now.
Anyway here we go
On December 31 2010 18:12 evanthebouncy! wrote:
yeah i expect sc2 to grow out of style and die, smothering out bw in the process. so they'll ruin both games.
but that's to pessimistic.
In bw cheeses are actually creative and fun because the risk is so high. Do you love Boxer? Do you love when he cheeses? Of course you do!
But do you like Foxer when he cheeses?? HELL NO!! Cuz it's the SAME BULLSHIT over and over.
Boxer cheese/micro is phenominal, it's something you CANNOT do and you jizz your pants watching it. Foxer? Same o' bull over and over, which is just retarded.
Sadly enough, because SC2 players haven't seen BW, they think Foxer cheeses are new and innovative and amazing.
What keeps SC2 going in my opinion...is the fans who support it competitively who did NOT play BW. This huge fanbase is growing and growing, creating a group of elitist SC2 players who believe that SC2 is the first (and best) competitive game out there. This is mainly fueled by HuskyStarcraft and HD, along with GSL and all the tournaments putting money into a game that is very new.
What happens when you try to break down a huge army of ignorant people? They get defensive. This has created the arguments of which game is better. Anybody who says SC2 is better than BW clearly has not played BW and is ignorant.
If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc..
I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created"
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW!
Also, why would people go to a game that has a regular of roughly 500-600 people on their competitive ladder when SC2 has...I don't even what to know. What is the purpose of getting good at a game that is hardly supported by media, as well as being near god-damn impossible to be deemed as "good"? There is NO motivation to go to BW for new SC2 players. They want attention, they want instant gratification of "being good" (achieveable by these leagues made by blizzard), they want to beat their friends and be good at a game. That's simply it.
This huge fanbase (husky has like 350k subscribers? nevake had like a peak of 10k) is now dominant EVEN IN TL! TEAMLIQUID.NET...the EPITOME of foreigner BW...is now dominated by SC2 players.
How the hell are people going to convert to BW when even the most hardcore BW site out there is overrun by these SC2 players? I'll tell you, there is NEAR NO reason to convert. This is why SC2 is even still alive today. The game is a good rts, but it doesn't even come CLOSE to BW. Will it? Never, I can never see that happening. Blizzard has already indicated that they are doing shit their own way whether we like it or not. Bye bye high-ground advantage which allows in-depth strategies, bye bye attack move, Blizzard couldn't care less. To them, SC2 is making so much effing money it's not even funny. GSL and HD and Husky support this by pumping in more and more and more people into competitive SC2 by the god damn day.
Eventually though, people will get bored of this game like every game hyped up by media. This is already prevalent in blogs like this...the game is BORING. Even some SC2 players are losing interest (more blogs proving this). Only then in my opinion, when SC2 starts to die off, people may want that rush of RTS again and may find BW to replace it. However I see this as a long process that is just barely starting to intiate.
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Posting about a game's death 6 or so months after its release is a bit premature isn't it?
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You've probably heard this argument before, but SC2 is a brand new game, as you say, so how can you expect it to be just as good now as a 12 year old perfectly polished game like BW?
I don't think SC2 is nearly as good as BW right now, but to say it never will be is stupid and shortsighted.
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I wouldn't see it as a bad thing though. I agree that BW is much more complex than SC2 when you compare the two at the moment, but I really have to hand it to everyone who helped the competitive SC scene grow in general - even the incoming SC2 casuals whom you describe in your post.
For what SC2 is, it's still fun and the competitive seen is booming which is what any eSports fan ever wanted. It's a tradeoff, and I think we were all spoiled with how BW is, but compared to how everyone perceives the game, I overall am very happy the way things turned out.
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My friend and I (13 Years old) are going BACK to BW. I'm like playing Mysc, Sc2, and BW now.
edit: i wonder how many young people (15 under?) are playing BW.
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what's worrisome is that with all the money blizzard makes from sc2's hype, they likely wouldn't two shits about sc2 not being as good of a game competitively as brood war is. i also wonder if all the people who flock to sc2 and the husky channel aren't just people hoping to watch the videos and gain insight on how to get better so that they can have some of the hyped up fame and glory of sc2
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I don't think professionals are going to go back to BW even if they don't like SC2. As you mentioned there is not as much money or media coverage for BW as there is in SC2. That's just fact and that's just the way it is. BW being out for 11 years has been clear cut and standardized and is extremely hard to be good at. SC2 controls are a lot easier; MBS, automine, infinite control group, which makes APM less part of the skill factor allowing the gap from C+ and A rank BW players to narrow dramatically.
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So what I'm gathering from this post is:
1. Sc2 is bad
2. BW is amazing
3. Anyone who disagrees is ignorant
yet
I am not trying to start some sort of heated sc2/bw debate
Seriously, thats all the content I could discern. Am I missing something?
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If I was casting a tic-tac-toe tournament you can bet I'd say it's the deepest game ever. There's nothing wrong with hype and it improves the viewer's experience. As many others, I got into starcraft watching the gomtv tournaments casted by Tasteless. For me, Memory and Anytime were stars, people like DarkElf or pepe excellent players not scrubs that could barely make it into Proleague and BBS was the epitome of strategy.
Many people are just plain not interested in BW and telling them that BW is better than SC2 just minimizes their experience. It's not that Husky is brainwashing these people into ignoring BW. Most of them never cared in the first place. Those who do, will check it out and make up their minds. That is if they aren't put off by the elitst attitude of BW fans first.
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You telling me SC2 is boring doesn't make it boring.
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If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc..
Kespa contracts.
How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what?
Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about.
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On December 31 2010 18:47 shindigs wrote:
For what SC2 is, it's still fun and the competitive seen is booming which is what any eSports fan ever wanted. It's a tradeoff, and I think we were all spoiled with how BW is, but compared to how everyone perceives the game, I overall am very happy the way things turned out.
It depends on whether you're a fan of Broodwar or a fan of eSports because very recently the two stopped being synonymous. Personally, there's no doubt in my mind that Broodwar is the greatest game ever made; there's a reason why every other esport failed miserably (compared to broodwar) and bw succeeded. It makes me bitter to see sc2 cash in on the enormous goodwill our masterpiece of a game has built for ten solitary years and even worse slowly wring the life out of it in the process. It's not fair that this inferior game gets to come out in an age were gaming, especially online gaming is much more prevalent and with an enormous fan base built on pure hype; that it gets to be huge.
But there's no denying sc2 is huge. It's got everything going it for it: a foundation from broodwar, huge player base, fun addicting game play and the support of Blizzard (for whatever that's worth). As an eSport I have little doubt it's already reached more people outside of Korea than Broodwar ever has, I have even less doubt that it will continue to grow and I know with certainty that it isn't going to die anytime soon. It still has ten years of expansions to nudge it along if it never gets going on its own and for some people that's awesome and exhilarating. It's a huge step forward for eSports, everyone knows it; the stronger sc2 gets the stronger and more legitmate eSports becomes as an industry.
I didn't realize it until recently, but I don't give a shit about eSports. I don't love gaming, its an enjoyable hobby but I don't care if its a sport. I love Broodwar... just Broodwar.
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On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Kespa contracts. How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what? Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about.
Teamliquid WAS a BW site, for many years. Please don't tell me TL originated because of the SC2 team lol...
On December 31 2010 19:34 sob3k wrote:So what I'm gathering from this post is: 1. Sc2 is bad 2. BW is amazing 3. Anyone who disagrees is ignorant yet Seriously, thats all the content I could discern. Am I missing something?
I am not trying to start an argument at all, these are just my opinions. You don't have to reply if you don't like, but if you do then just realize that you are initiating the argument and please don't blame me for it that's all.
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On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Kespa contracts. How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what? Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about.
Oh you mean that professional team bearing the name of a community born of bw?
The one from teamliquid.net which is the premier foreign bw site?
Tread carefully friend, you're starting to poke at bee hive.
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That part about elitist SC2 players and blogs like this one signalling end of SC2 made me chuckle. Seriously this is a sadly outdated and terribly opinionated post belonging to a time a few months ago.
I didnt get that horror about Teamliquid.net being overrun by SC2 fans either, teamliquid is what Nazgul and Meat wants it to be, now it is Starcraft both bw and SC2, tomorrow it might be WC4 (as they have already stated).
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2.
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On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about.
This makes me ill
On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2.
Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap.
1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2.
2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back.
3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie.
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Sc2 won't die, it will just be like CoD or WoW, mediocre but with a huge community.
( edit: Okay it is already better than WoW or CoD, i mean mediocre compared to bw  )
People just don't seem to understand that quality and popularity aren't always related.
Best movies =/= biggest gross revenue and best games =/= biggest player pool.
Anyway who cares ? Just play bw if you like it.
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On December 31 2010 19:44 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Kespa contracts. How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what? Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. Teamliquid WAS a BW site, for many years. Please don't tell me TL originated because of the SC2 team lol...
TL was a BW site because TL was a BW team. TL.net originated because of TL. That team is now an SC2 team. So yes, the site originated because of what is now an SC2 team.
On December 31 2010 19:46 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
Oh you mean that professional team bearing the name of a community born of bw?
The one from teamliquid.net which is the premier foreign bw site?
Tread carefully friend, you're starting to poke at bee hive.
Me tread carefully? Learn your history. Whatever you think Teamliquid.net is, you are wrong. It is not primarily a BW community. It is primarily clan forums. TL.net is not like fomos or xplay. It is not FOR BW or SC2 community. It is first and foremost a website for the clan. If a community built around it, then there is a community there. That does not however, mean that the team is born out of the community, or that the community made the team famous.
User was warned for this post
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I currently play both SC:BW/2 but I only watch professional bw and I don't really much care about what game is going to die first unless any of SPL/OSL/MSL would stop.
Whatever happens, I will never forget the fact that BW became SK's national sport for a decade.
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On December 31 2010 19:41 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 18:47 shindigs wrote:
For what SC2 is, it's still fun and the competitive seen is booming which is what any eSports fan ever wanted. It's a tradeoff, and I think we were all spoiled with how BW is, but compared to how everyone perceives the game, I overall am very happy the way things turned out. It depends on whether you're a fan of Broodwar or a fan of eSports because very recently the two stopped being synonymous. Personally, there's no doubt in my mind that Broodwar is the greatest game ever made; there's a reason why every other esport failed miserably (compared to broodwar) and bw succeeded. It makes me bitter to see sc2 cash in on the enormous goodwill our masterpiece of a game has built for ten solitary years and even worse slowly wring the life out of it in the process. It's not fair that this inferior game gets to come out in an age were gaming, especially online gaming is much more prevalent and with an enormous fan base built on pure hype; that it gets to be huge. But there's no denying sc2 is huge. It's got everything going it for it: a foundation from broodwar, huge player base, fun addicting game play and the support of Blizzard (for whatever that's worth). As an eSport I have little doubt it's already reached more people outside of Korea than Broodwar ever has, I have even less doubt that it will continue to grow and I know with certainty that it isn't going to die anytime soon. It still has ten years of expansions to nudge it along if it never gets going on its own and for some people that's awesome and exhilarating. It's a huge step forward for eSports, everyone knows it; the stronger sc2 gets the stronger and more legitmate eSports becomes as an industry. I didn't realize it until recently, but I don't give a shit about eSports. I don't love gaming, its an enjoyable hobby but I don't care if its a sport. I love Broodwar... just Broodwar.
Wow, Good point!!! never thought about this way.... and now i'm conflicted
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I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW!
This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene.
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On December 31 2010 20:31 Garrl wrote:Show nested quote +I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene.
He really did that ?
wow...
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On December 31 2010 19:41 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 18:47 shindigs wrote:
For what SC2 is, it's still fun and the competitive seen is booming which is what any eSports fan ever wanted. It's a tradeoff, and I think we were all spoiled with how BW is, but compared to how everyone perceives the game, I overall am very happy the way things turned out. It depends on whether you're a fan of Broodwar or a fan of eSports because very recently the two stopped being synonymous. Personally, there's no doubt in my mind that Broodwar is the greatest game ever made; there's a reason why every other esport failed miserably (compared to broodwar) and bw succeeded. It makes me bitter to see sc2 cash in on the enormous goodwill our masterpiece of a game has built for ten solitary years and even worse slowly wring the life out of it in the process. It's not fair that this inferior game gets to come out in an age were gaming, especially online gaming is much more prevalent and with an enormous fan base built on pure hype; that it gets to be huge. But there's no denying sc2 is huge. It's got everything going it for it: a foundation from broodwar, huge player base, fun addicting game play and the support of Blizzard (for whatever that's worth). As an eSport I have little doubt it's already reached more people outside of Korea than Broodwar ever has, I have even less doubt that it will continue to grow and I know with certainty that it isn't going to die anytime soon. It still has ten years of expansions to nudge it along if it never gets going on its own and for some people that's awesome and exhilarating. It's a huge step forward for eSports, everyone knows it; the stronger sc2 gets the stronger and more legitmate eSports becomes as an industry. I didn't realize it until recently, but I don't give a shit about eSports. I don't love gaming, its an enjoyable hobby but I don't care if its a sport. I love Broodwar... just Broodwar.
I disagree. I'm a fan of eSports but i firmly believe that if an inferior sequal is able to wring the life out of it's predecessor then that just delegitimises eSports as a whole and prevents it from ever being as viable as 'ordinary athletic sports'. It's not eSports if theres no longevity and the 40% to 60% of the fan/plaerbase jumps ship each time SC3 and WAR4 come out.
I also disagree that SC2 is already a strong eSport. The essence of a viable spectator sport is that of which many of the spectators are casual viewers. That fat guy with a huge pot belly watching football...does he play? Fangirls creaming themselves upon witnessing jangbi storms...do they play?
As of right now the entirety of SC2 viewership is completely made up of kids trying to get higher up the ladder. So no i don''t believe SC2 is an eSport yet.
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On December 31 2010 20:35 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 20:31 Garrl wrote:I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene. He really did that ? wow...
No he didn't. He moved all his BW vids to a seperate channel. Thats something different.
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Just way untill Blizzard grows tired of SC2 and then the community will take over and everything will be fine and dandy. Until then... I like playing sc2 ladder. And who says you can't play both? Just play BW when you feel like it. For example, the recent RACE WARS thread motivated me to go play killing fields just to see wassup with the map, it felt nice to play BW again after months.
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On December 31 2010 20:49 Amestir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 20:35 Boblion wrote:On December 31 2010 20:31 Garrl wrote:I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene. He really did that ? wow... No he didn't. He moved all his BW vids to a seperate channel. Thats something different.
I can't see any evidence of that.
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On December 31 2010 21:02 Garrl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 20:49 Amestir wrote:On December 31 2010 20:35 Boblion wrote:On December 31 2010 20:31 Garrl wrote:I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene. He really did that ? wow... No he didn't. He moved all his BW vids to a seperate channel. Thats something different. I can't see any evidence of that.
He used to have HuskytheHusky channel on which were all the bw vods but Youtube says he has closed that channel so I guess these are gone.
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On December 31 2010 21:17 Jakalo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 21:02 Garrl wrote:On December 31 2010 20:49 Amestir wrote:On December 31 2010 20:35 Boblion wrote:On December 31 2010 20:31 Garrl wrote:I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated:
"SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created
Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! This. I realised that after Husky deleted all his BW vids, he knew that if people started moving to BW after they realised it's better to watch, he'd be screwed out of subs and views: he doesn't WANT people to see BW, because it would kill the hype, the only thing running the SC2 scene. He really did that ? wow... No he didn't. He moved all his BW vids to a seperate channel. Thats something different. I can't see any evidence of that. He used to have HuskytheHusky channel on which were all the bw vods but Youtube says he has closed that channel so I guess these are gone.
HtH was dead a long time before he started doing SC2 Beta stuff. His SCBW games were up on HuskySC for a long while.
I heard he removed them because he wanted partner status, so he needed his own content and not VODs from SCBW, but he definitely has got rid of the BW vods from both channels.
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2 years from now:
MULEs nerfed to 65% of what they do now.
Warpgate tech moved to Citadel
Queens inject 3 larva.
+random fixes to actually make this balanced
+ Air-to-Air unit with splash damage for each race to make air dominance battles interesting.(remember BW) IMO they purposely left this out to have a go-to unit for the expansion.
IF SC2 were to remain unchanged, it would die out prematurely, but 2(!!) expansion packs are coming and millions of dollars of motivation are there to make sure the game DOESN'T die out.
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On December 31 2010 18:47 Osmoses wrote:
You've probably heard this argument before, but SC2 is a brand new game, as you say, so how can you expect it to be just as good now as a 12 year old perfectly polished game like BW?
I don't think SC2 is nearly as good as BW right now, but to say it never will be is stupid and shortsighted.
Nah no it's not. I said that Command and Conquer will never be as good of a game as BroodWar 6 months after it came out and I was right.
I said that War3 will never be as good of a game as BroodWar 6 months after it came out and I was right.
The designers went into SC2 with a philosophy of changing many of the things that made BroodWar work in the first place. They'll be unlikely to change their minds and redesign the whole thing, and that's why SC2 will never be as good as BroodWar.
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On December 31 2010 21:57 gen.Sun wrote:
The designers went into SC2 with a philosophy of changing many of the things that made BroodWar work in the first place.
And what would those things be, that cannot be changed by a simple tweak?
I'm honestly asking, none are coming to my mind atm.
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On December 31 2010 20:14 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 19:44 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Kespa contracts. How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what? Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. Teamliquid WAS a BW site, for many years. Please don't tell me TL originated because of the SC2 team lol... TL was a BW site because TL was a BW team. TL.net originated because of TL. That team is now an SC2 team. So yes, the site originated because of what is now an SC2 team. Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 19:46 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
Oh you mean that professional team bearing the name of a community born of bw?
The one from teamliquid.net which is the premier foreign bw site?
Tread carefully friend, you're starting to poke at bee hive. Me tread carefully? Learn your history. Whatever you think Teamliquid.net is, you are wrong. It is not primarily a BW community. It is primarily clan forums. TL.net is not like fomos or xplay. It is not FOR BW or SC2 community. It is first and foremost a website for the clan. If a community built around it, then there is a community there. That does not however, mean that the team is born out of the community, or that the community made the team famous.
Sorry but you're wrong. There was never a TL BW pro team. The team we know now was formed after SC2. TL is first and foremost a community site and the team formed after SC2 came out.
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On December 31 2010 22:15 calvinL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 20:14 dogabutila wrote:On December 31 2010 19:44 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Kespa contracts. How bout them TL folk, you know, those guys that ran the premier foreigner sc site? They will never transition because bw is so much better! ...... wait what? Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. Teamliquid WAS a BW site, for many years. Please don't tell me TL originated because of the SC2 team lol... TL was a BW site because TL was a BW team. TL.net originated because of TL. That team is now an SC2 team. So yes, the site originated because of what is now an SC2 team. On December 31 2010 19:46 Xenocide_Knight wrote:
Oh you mean that professional team bearing the name of a community born of bw?
The one from teamliquid.net which is the premier foreign bw site?
Tread carefully friend, you're starting to poke at bee hive. Me tread carefully? Learn your history. Whatever you think Teamliquid.net is, you are wrong. It is not primarily a BW community. It is primarily clan forums. TL.net is not like fomos or xplay. It is not FOR BW or SC2 community. It is first and foremost a website for the clan. If a community built around it, then there is a community there. That does not however, mean that the team is born out of the community, or that the community made the team famous. Sorry but you're wrong. There was never a TL BW pro team. The team we know now was formed after SC2. TL is first and foremost a community site and the team formed after SC2 came out.
Sorry but you're wrong. There was a TL BW pro team. The team we know now was formed before SC2. TL is first and foremost a community site and the team formed before SC2 came out.
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On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie.
I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing.
Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around.
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On December 31 2010 22:08 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 21:57 gen.Sun wrote:
The designers went into SC2 with a philosophy of changing many of the things that made BroodWar work in the first place. And what would those things be, that cannot be changed by a simple tweak? I'm honestly asking, none are coming to my mind atm.
Sure, for instance the idea that every race needs good mobility.
Hence you have the introduction of warps, and medivacs, blink!!! and the loss of strong defensive or positional play brought about by features such as mines, supply depot walls, and high ground advantage.
Or the idea that every race needs a stable mid tier 'tank' unit. Hence you get shit like roaches and Marauders, and now most matchup midgame plays like BroodWar PvP.
This is a very command and conquer philosophy that watch every match turn into tank rush. Complete fail. It also bares mentioning how terrible the Thor unit is. It's almost like a Battlecruiser in how huge and high up the tech tree it is, but it's a completely necessary part of a mech army, yet it sucks balls compared to the goliath. It's a huge misfit.
Also minor fails like moving spine crawlers. That kind of leap frog positional play is the territory of the terran, if the zerg can do that then the terran loses part of what makes their play unique.
These changes bring all the races much closer together, and the matchups lose much of their distinctiveness.
Also just general and random noobification. For instance in BW you had to be very careful of your scout timings and scout positioning to keep yourself map aware, now you just send 1 probe to the xelnaga towers. When I first saw that 'feature' i literally had a facepalm.
Also the 'macro mechanics' are completely broken, but that's been covered over and over.
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On December 31 2010 22:22 Jakalo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie. I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing. Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around.
I think that SC2 is overall a good thing for BW. Because I'm fully confident that the SC2 will atrophy and the foreign viewers and players will slowly drift back to BW. I'm already seeing a lot of newbies in the LR threads and the streams.
It'll be tough for a year or 2 but BW will eventually come out stronger imo.
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On December 31 2010 22:40 gen.Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 22:22 Jakalo wrote:On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie. I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing. Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around. I think that SC2 is overall a good thing for BW. Because I'm fully confident that the SC2 will atrophy and the foreign viewers and players will slowly drift back to BW. I'm already seeing a lot of newbies in the LR threads and the streams. It'll be tough for a year or 2 but BW will eventually come out stronger imo.
fwiw I think if sc2 dies out, BW won't magically be reborn. Just look at what CS:Source and all the hype it created about esports and north american progaming did to CS 1.6... it killed both communities
However I think sc2 is much more successful than cs:source and personally don't see it dying in 2 years (i mean thats when the protoss sc2 game will probably just be coming out). I think sc2 still has a long long life ahead of it.
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Although I consider myself a BW fan, I hope SC2 turns out great with the expansions simply because I wish nothing but the best from the bottom of my heart for people like InControl, White-Ra, and many other foreigners who we love.
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On December 31 2010 22:48 kaisr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 22:40 gen.Sun wrote:On December 31 2010 22:22 Jakalo wrote:On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie. I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing. Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around. I think that SC2 is overall a good thing for BW. Because I'm fully confident that the SC2 will atrophy and the foreign viewers and players will slowly drift back to BW. I'm already seeing a lot of newbies in the LR threads and the streams. It'll be tough for a year or 2 but BW will eventually come out stronger imo. fwiw I think if sc2 dies out, BW won't magically be reborn. Just look at what CS:Source and all the hype it created about esports and north american progaming did to CS 1.6... it killed both communities However I think sc2 is much more successful than cs:source and personally don't see it dying in 2 years (i mean thats when the protoss sc2 game will probably just be coming out). I think sc2 still has a long long life ahead of it.
It depends on where the money goes. There's like 20 Korean companies that support eSports. All together they have like 500 billion dollars of market value.
If those companies decide to invest in SC2, have it fail, then that may turn them off eSports forever.
If those companies keep on investing in BW as they have been doing, then whatever happens in SC2 will not damage BW.
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On December 31 2010 22:55 gen.Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 22:48 kaisr wrote:On December 31 2010 22:40 gen.Sun wrote:On December 31 2010 22:22 Jakalo wrote:On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie. I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing. Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around. I think that SC2 is overall a good thing for BW. Because I'm fully confident that the SC2 will atrophy and the foreign viewers and players will slowly drift back to BW. I'm already seeing a lot of newbies in the LR threads and the streams. It'll be tough for a year or 2 but BW will eventually come out stronger imo. fwiw I think if sc2 dies out, BW won't magically be reborn. Just look at what CS:Source and all the hype it created about esports and north american progaming did to CS 1.6... it killed both communities However I think sc2 is much more successful than cs:source and personally don't see it dying in 2 years (i mean thats when the protoss sc2 game will probably just be coming out). I think sc2 still has a long long life ahead of it. It depends on where the money goes. There's like 20 Korean companies that support eSports. All together they have like 500 billion dollars of market value. If those companies decide to invest in SC2, have it fail, then that may turn them off eSports forever. If those companies keep on investing in BW as they have been doing, then whatever happens in SC2 will not damage BW.
well then you're just talking about the korean scene where BW is as active and alive as ever. Its only in the foreign scene that BW is pretty much completely dead, and theres no way korean companies would invest in foreign tournaments.
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On December 31 2010 23:00 kaisr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 22:55 gen.Sun wrote:On December 31 2010 22:48 kaisr wrote:On December 31 2010 22:40 gen.Sun wrote:On December 31 2010 22:22 Jakalo wrote:On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie. I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing. Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around. I think that SC2 is overall a good thing for BW. Because I'm fully confident that the SC2 will atrophy and the foreign viewers and players will slowly drift back to BW. I'm already seeing a lot of newbies in the LR threads and the streams. It'll be tough for a year or 2 but BW will eventually come out stronger imo. fwiw I think if sc2 dies out, BW won't magically be reborn. Just look at what CS:Source and all the hype it created about esports and north american progaming did to CS 1.6... it killed both communities However I think sc2 is much more successful than cs:source and personally don't see it dying in 2 years (i mean thats when the protoss sc2 game will probably just be coming out). I think sc2 still has a long long life ahead of it. It depends on where the money goes. There's like 20 Korean companies that support eSports. All together they have like 500 billion dollars of market value. If those companies decide to invest in SC2, have it fail, then that may turn them off eSports forever. If those companies keep on investing in BW as they have been doing, then whatever happens in SC2 will not damage BW. well then you're just talking about the korean scene where BW is as active and alive as ever. Its only in the foreign scene that BW is pretty much completely dead, and theres no way korean companies would invest in foreign tournaments.
There was never even 1 foreign league in existence.
There never was a foreign BW pro scene bro, don't know what you're talking about.
I can't care less about player count on bnet, I'm talking about eSports.
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Have you never heard of WCG? MSL? ESL? Any of the leagues from a decade ago? How bout the TeamLiquid Starleague? How bout the TeamLiquid Starleague 2?
It's distasteful how wrong your post is.
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On December 31 2010 18:40 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:I began to type this just as a reply to the post, but I would rather blog it so more people actually read this rather than just looking at the length and omitting it altogether. I am not trying to start some sort of heated sc2/bw debate, I just would rather more people read this because I put a good amount of time into typing it and it's something that has been on my mind for a while now. Anyway here we go Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 18:12 evanthebouncy! wrote:
yeah i expect sc2 to grow out of style and die, smothering out bw in the process. so they'll ruin both games.
but that's to pessimistic.
In bw cheeses are actually creative and fun because the risk is so high. Do you love Boxer? Do you love when he cheeses? Of course you do!
But do you like Foxer when he cheeses?? HELL NO!! Cuz it's the SAME BULLSHIT over and over.
Boxer cheese/micro is phenominal, it's something you CANNOT do and you jizz your pants watching it. Foxer? Same o' bull over and over, which is just retarded. Sadly enough, because SC2 players haven't seen BW, they think Foxer cheeses are new and innovative and amazing. What keeps SC2 going in my opinion...is the fans who support it competitively who did NOT play BW. This huge fanbase is growing and growing, creating a group of elitist SC2 players who believe that SC2 is the first (and best) competitive game out there. This is mainly fueled by HuskyStarcraft and HD, along with GSL and all the tournaments putting money into a game that is very new. What happens when you try to break down a huge army of ignorant people? They get defensive. This has created the arguments of which game is better. Anybody who says SC2 is better than BW clearly has not played BW and is ignorant. If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated: "SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created" Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! Also, why would people go to a game that has a regular of roughly 500-600 people on their competitive ladder when SC2 has...I don't even what to know. What is the purpose of getting good at a game that is hardly supported by media, as well as being near god-damn impossible to be deemed as "good"? There is NO motivation to go to BW for new SC2 players. They want attention, they want instant gratification of "being good" (achieveable by these leagues made by blizzard), they want to beat their friends and be good at a game. That's simply it. This huge fanbase (husky has like 350k subscribers? nevake had like a peak of 10k) is now dominant EVEN IN TL! TEAMLIQUID.NET...the EPITOME of foreigner BW...is now dominated by SC2 players. How the hell are people going to convert to BW when even the most hardcore BW site out there is overrun by these SC2 players? I'll tell you, there is NEAR NO reason to convert. This is why SC2 is even still alive today. The game is a good rts, but it doesn't even come CLOSE to BW. Will it? Never, I can never see that happening. Blizzard has already indicated that they are doing shit their own way whether we like it or not. Bye bye high-ground advantage which allows in-depth strategies, bye bye attack move, Blizzard couldn't care less. To them, SC2 is making so much effing money it's not even funny. GSL and HD and Husky support this by pumping in more and more and more people into competitive SC2 by the god damn day. Eventually though, people will get bored of this game like every game hyped up by media. This is already prevalent in blogs like this...the game is BORING. Even some SC2 players are losing interest (more blogs proving this). Only then in my opinion, when SC2 starts to die off, people may want that rush of RTS again and may find BW to replace it. However I see this as a long process that is just barely starting to intiate.
Ugh, your post is so full of hypocrisy that it hurts me.
Firstly, you say that SC2 only exist because fans that have not played BW support it. Which is a bit of a weird point since 99% of the best foreigner BW players have switched over to SC2. In fact, some of the biggest BW legends have made the switch; Boxer, NaDa, JulyZerg. Furthermore I dare say that more than 50% of people that visited teamliquid for BW also like watching SC2.
It's a weird statement overall since you're saying that Starcraft 2 attracts people not initially involved in Starcraft. Which can only mean it does something good as a game.
No-one thinks MarineKing is creative because he occasionally cheeses. People think he's creative because he introduced Marine heavy play in all MU's and made it work by great micro. Foxer and Boxer were creative because they can make things work through control, not because they cheese a lot. If Boxer had kept bunker rushing every game, I'm pretty sure people would have gotten tired of it. The only reason those rushes were riskier was because BW was more figured out than SC2 is today, and even then, cheese is always risky, hence it's called cheese.
Saying that Boxer cheese is awesome because you jizz your pants when he does it is not really proof of anything, just that Boxer turns you on. When MarineKing cheeses and makes it work because of great control (just like Boxer did) and then calling it "the same 'ol bull" is just you playing down his accomplishments since you don't like SC2. You try to use your own experience and biased POV as proof, it doesn't work that way.
I watched BW before SC2 was out and I still think Foxer's marine play is creative ... wow, there must be something wrong with me because I don't behave the way you predicted ...
And then you follow up with:
"What happens when you try to break down a huge army of ignorant people? They get defensive. This has created the arguments of which game is better. Anybody who says SC2 is better than BW clearly has not played BW and is ignorant."
It's funny that you don't even realise you are posting this rant because you are defensive of BW. You're posting this because you can't handle the fact that SC2 is more popular than the game you love and as such you get agressive (defensive) by insulting SC2 fans, calling them ignorant. You then show how ignorant you are yourself and claim that everyone who thinks SC2 is better hasn't played BW ... just wow, how can you even remotely believe you have the authority to say such a thing in the name of everyone that played BW? How you can even believe this is true for everyone just boggles my mind.
Plenty of people have transitioned to SC2 so I don't really get this point, the people in BW nowadays have mostly only played that game their entire life, it isn't much of a suprise that they wouldn't abandon ship as soon as SC2 came out. They have a job now and can always switch when/ if BW dies out.
Then you say Husky can't claim that SC2 is the best RTS of all time since SC2 is new ... but somehow you feel SC2 is ripe enough for you to decide that BW is better than SC2? Logic?
BW only has 500-600 active people on ladder and you blame that on the fact not more people play the game? Circular argument much?
Husky has 350k subscribers. Nevake had 10k at most, again what does this prove besides the fact that SC2 is more popular than BW has ever been?
TeamLiquid as a team has switched to SC2, and obviously SC2 has done the site/ team good. If you can't handle there being more SC2 than BW around maybe you should start your own hardcore BW site (no SC2 noobs allowed?) because you're not ignorant or elitist like them.
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On December 31 2010 19:36 .Aar wrote:
You telling me SC2 is boring doesn't make it boring.
I think that this is the most important post in this thread.
Why should we care that you say SC2 is boring? People who watch SC2 (and there are a lot of them) obviously don't find it boring. What are you trying to accomplish? Do you think that saying that it's boring somehow makes people feel that it's boring? Good luck with that.
Maybe if in a few years SC2 implodes you'll bring this back and tells us all how you were right. I hope it makes you feel a bit better inside.
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On December 31 2010 23:24 Craton wrote:
Have you never heard of WCG? MSL? ESL? Any of the leagues from a decade ago? How bout the TeamLiquid Starleague? How bout the TeamLiquid Starleague 2?
It's distasteful how wrong your post is.
:S I've been following BW since 2005.
Those are not real leagues bro. They have like 1 tournament a year, they maintain no rankings, they don't keep any pros employed, they pay out less than my high school robotics club, and I don't call myself a pro robot maker.
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On December 31 2010 23:31 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 18:40 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:I began to type this just as a reply to the post, but I would rather blog it so more people actually read this rather than just looking at the length and omitting it altogether. I am not trying to start some sort of heated sc2/bw debate, I just would rather more people read this because I put a good amount of time into typing it and it's something that has been on my mind for a while now. Anyway here we go On December 31 2010 18:12 evanthebouncy! wrote:
yeah i expect sc2 to grow out of style and die, smothering out bw in the process. so they'll ruin both games.
but that's to pessimistic.
In bw cheeses are actually creative and fun because the risk is so high. Do you love Boxer? Do you love when he cheeses? Of course you do!
But do you like Foxer when he cheeses?? HELL NO!! Cuz it's the SAME BULLSHIT over and over.
Boxer cheese/micro is phenominal, it's something you CANNOT do and you jizz your pants watching it. Foxer? Same o' bull over and over, which is just retarded. Sadly enough, because SC2 players haven't seen BW, they think Foxer cheeses are new and innovative and amazing. What keeps SC2 going in my opinion...is the fans who support it competitively who did NOT play BW. This huge fanbase is growing and growing, creating a group of elitist SC2 players who believe that SC2 is the first (and best) competitive game out there. This is mainly fueled by HuskyStarcraft and HD, along with GSL and all the tournaments putting money into a game that is very new. What happens when you try to break down a huge army of ignorant people? They get defensive. This has created the arguments of which game is better. Anybody who says SC2 is better than BW clearly has not played BW and is ignorant. If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. I distinctly remember a statement Husky made in their HDH Tournament. At the beginning of a match, he stated: "SC2...the greatest competitive RTS game ever created" Now keep in mind, this was said roughly 3-4 months after SC2 beta was even released! It's hype! that's all SC2 really is, just a big load of hype. Husky himself KNEW at that time, the complexity of BW was greater than SC2. This is simply logical because SC2 is a brand new frigging video game while BW was out and developed for 11 years! You cannot say at that time, SC2 is better than BW, it would not make sense for somebody to say that who played competitive BW! Also, why would people go to a game that has a regular of roughly 500-600 people on their competitive ladder when SC2 has...I don't even what to know. What is the purpose of getting good at a game that is hardly supported by media, as well as being near god-damn impossible to be deemed as "good"? There is NO motivation to go to BW for new SC2 players. They want attention, they want instant gratification of "being good" (achieveable by these leagues made by blizzard), they want to beat their friends and be good at a game. That's simply it. This huge fanbase (husky has like 350k subscribers? nevake had like a peak of 10k) is now dominant EVEN IN TL! TEAMLIQUID.NET...the EPITOME of foreigner BW...is now dominated by SC2 players. How the hell are people going to convert to BW when even the most hardcore BW site out there is overrun by these SC2 players? I'll tell you, there is NEAR NO reason to convert. This is why SC2 is even still alive today. The game is a good rts, but it doesn't even come CLOSE to BW. Will it? Never, I can never see that happening. Blizzard has already indicated that they are doing shit their own way whether we like it or not. Bye bye high-ground advantage which allows in-depth strategies, bye bye attack move, Blizzard couldn't care less. To them, SC2 is making so much effing money it's not even funny. GSL and HD and Husky support this by pumping in more and more and more people into competitive SC2 by the god damn day. Eventually though, people will get bored of this game like every game hyped up by media. This is already prevalent in blogs like this...the game is BORING. Even some SC2 players are losing interest (more blogs proving this). Only then in my opinion, when SC2 starts to die off, people may want that rush of RTS again and may find BW to replace it. However I see this as a long process that is just barely starting to intiate. Ugh, your post is so full of hypocrisy that it hurts me. Firstly, you say that SC2 only exist because fans that have not played BW support it. Which is a bit of a weird point since 99% of the best foreigner BW players have switched over to SC2. In fact, some of the biggest BW legends have made the switch; Boxer, NaDa, JulyZerg. Furthermore I dare say that more than 50% of people that visited teamliquid for BW also like watching SC2. It's a weird statement overall since you're saying that Starcraft 2 attracts people not initially involved in Starcraft. Which can only mean it does something good as a game. No-one thinks MarineKing is creative because he occasionally cheeses. People think he's creative because he introduced Marine heavy play in all MU's and made it work by great micro. Foxer and Boxer were creative because they can make things work through control, not because they cheese a lot. If Boxer had kept bunker rushing every game, I'm pretty sure people would have gotten tired of it. The only reason those rushes were riskier was because BW was more figured out than SC2 is today, and even then, cheese is always risky, hence it's called cheese. Saying that Boxer cheese is awesome because you jizz your pants when he does it is not really proof of anything, just that Boxer turns you on. When MarineKing cheeses and makes it work because of great control (just like Boxer did) and then calling it "the same 'ol bull" is just you playing down his accomplishments since you don't like SC2. You try to use your own experience and biased POV as proof, it doesn't work that way. I watched BW before SC2 was out and I still think Foxer's marine play is creative ... wow, there must be something wrong with me because I don't behave the way you predicted ... And then you follow up with: "What happens when you try to break down a huge army of ignorant people? They get defensive. This has created the arguments of which game is better. Anybody who says SC2 is better than BW clearly has not played BW and is ignorant." It's funny that you don't even realise you are posting this rant because you are defensive of BW. You're posting this because you can't handle the fact that SC2 is more popular than the game you love and as such you get agressive (defensive) by insulting SC2 fans, calling them ignorant. You then show how ignorant you are yourself and claim that everyone who thinks SC2 is better hasn't played BW ... just wow, how can you even remotely believe you have the authority to say such a thing in the name of everyone that played BW? How you can even believe this is true for everyone just boggles my mind. Plenty of people have transitioned to SC2 so I don't really get this point, the people in BW nowadays have mostly only played that game their entire life, it isn't much of a suprise that they wouldn't abandon ship as soon as SC2 came out. They have a job now and can always switch when/ if BW dies out. Then you say Husky can't claim that SC2 is the best RTS of all time since SC2 is new ... but somehow you feel SC2 is ripe enough for you to decide that BW is better than SC2? Logic? BW only has 500-600 active people on ladder and you blame that on the fact not more people play the game? Circular argument much? Husky has 350k subscribers. Nevake had 10k at most, again what does this prove besides the fact that SC2 is more popular than BW has ever been? TeamLiquid as a team has switched to SC2, and obviously SC2 has done the site/ team good. If you can't handle there being more SC2 than BW around maybe you should start your own hardcore BW site (no SC2 noobs allowed?) because you're not ignorant or elitist like them.
Haa thanx for this post..I was shocked reading OP because it sounds really too elitist (in a bad, bad way).
I'm 36, I bought sc and bw the day of release and I follow pro scene since Boxer, and I still like sc2, I love Foxer's sick marine micro. I think broodwar is better, and even if I played broodwar for like 8 years every weekend doing lans with friends, I still have fun with sc2. But this doesn't make me spit on some group of people "who don't understand".
I don't know how sc2 will turn out, but starcraft wasn't exactly perfect at release, and if the expansions brings some cool units with potential (like reaver or lurkers) it could become a great game.
If I were as elitist as you, I'd say you miss being part of a small "underground" group that hate to see his passion becoming a mainstream thing because he can't define himself anymore as undergound. But with age and maturity you'll understand that you don't need something like that to define yourself and you'll accept that people like different things without them being wrong.
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On December 31 2010 22:40 gen.Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 22:22 Jakalo wrote:On December 31 2010 20:06 n.DieJokes wrote:On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:If BW is better, then why the heck isn't everybody just transitioning over? This again comes down to media attention. HD, Husky, GSL, etc.. Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about. This makes me ill On December 31 2010 19:48 Jakalo wrote:
If anything Starcraft 2 is beneficial to Broodwar (maybe less so in Korea, but for now lets stick to foreign scene) as some of new visitors of the site might notice Broodwar section, games streamed from Korea and terrific job our coverage teams are doing and take up BW mantle along Sc2. Would make sense in theory but this is actually crap. 1. Almost every strong foreigner has switched to sc2. 2. The entire broodwar player base tried sc2, not everyone came back. 3. Broodwar is hard, really hard and skill level is very high. Sc2 is easy to get into, the ladder matches you with fellow scrubs and the game is easier; it's not a hard choice for a newbie. I agree, its hard to go back (or start) playing Broodwar, but what I was aiming at was newcomers watching and following broodwar scene as most of us do instead of playing. Also I would appreciate not throwing ''crap'' around. I think that SC2 is overall a good thing for BW. Because I'm fully confident that the SC2 will atrophy and the foreign viewers and players will slowly drift back to BW. I'm already seeing a lot of newbies in the LR threads and the streams. It'll be tough for a year or 2 but BW will eventually come out stronger imo.
If we can hold the hydra all in. The advantage will be ours ^^.
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On January 01 2011 00:00 MrCon wrote:
[
Haa thanx for this post..I was shocked reading OP because it sounds really too elitist (in a bad, bad way).
I'm 36, I bought sc and bw the day of release and I follow pro scene since Boxer, and I still like sc2, I love Foxer's sick marine micro. I think broodwar is better, and even if I played broodwar for like 8 years every weekend doing lans with friends, I still have fun with sc2. But this doesn't make me spit on some group of people "who don't understand".
I don't know how sc2 will turn out, but starcraft wasn't exactly perfect at release, and if the expansions brings some cool units with potential (like reaver or lurkers) it could become a great game.
If I were as elitist as you, I'd say you miss being part of a small "underground" group that hate to see his passion becoming a mainstream thing because he can't define himself anymore as undergound. But with age and maturity you'll understand that you don't need something like that to define yourself and you'll accept that people like different things without them being wrong.
It's not about being elitist at all. I can see what the point of the author is, so I don't fully agree with him. I never really cared for SCII before the Beta started. I got a key for the first wave, played a bunch of games (200-300) and the game never caught me. I stopped caring again, since it isn't fun - for me. I respect other people and their opinions.
A thing I could observe was the vast majority switching, leaving you behind and start to characterize you as some stubborn broodwar-die-hard, that is just too old and conservative to accept changes. Then again the community somehow transformed in great parts, always telling stories how SCII would help the foreign E-Sports scene and how this game would own everything. I disagree. I don't see any chances for the e-Sports scene (whatever this is) to grow because of SCII being hyped all over the place. People start to give up their work and focus on SCII only, or at least pretend to do so. If they want to, I don't stop them. What really gets to me, and that's the point I will never ever understand, is why people still come to what's left of broodwar and saying our community would be dead, and at the same time saying that they are a bit bored by SCII for now. But all will eventually change the game needs still to be balanced bla bla bla, more add-ons coming, bla bla bla, so join the new SCII hype and get over your old game bla bla bla.
Hell I don't want to, and I even don't want to hear about the game, because I do not care, not because I hate it. It's a good game, but I have a hard time to even compare it to my beloved Broodwar. The point what most people miss is that a game should be fun, not e-sports or a money making job that pays you off well enough to actually spend the rest of your life in luxury or whatever. It's not about what the majority thinks, it's what about gives you fun in your spare time. That's at least my opinion, and that's why I still like SCBW more than any other game, because it's fun and it's even fun to be part of "the dead community".
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On December 31 2010 19:40 dogabutila wrote:
Get it straight, Teamliquid.net is NOT a bw site. It is a site for Team Liquid. That professional SC2 team you may or may not know about.
Dude look at the banner.. What's written under the "teamliquid" ?
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On January 01 2011 00:32 Gecko[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2011 00:00 MrCon wrote:
[
Haa thanx for this post..I was shocked reading OP because it sounds really too elitist (in a bad, bad way).
I'm 36, I bought sc and bw the day of release and I follow pro scene since Boxer, and I still like sc2, I love Foxer's sick marine micro. I think broodwar is better, and even if I played broodwar for like 8 years every weekend doing lans with friends, I still have fun with sc2. But this doesn't make me spit on some group of people "who don't understand".
I don't know how sc2 will turn out, but starcraft wasn't exactly perfect at release, and if the expansions brings some cool units with potential (like reaver or lurkers) it could become a great game.
If I were as elitist as you, I'd say you miss being part of a small "underground" group that hate to see his passion becoming a mainstream thing because he can't define himself anymore as undergound. But with age and maturity you'll understand that you don't need something like that to define yourself and you'll accept that people like different things without them being wrong.
It's not about being elitist at all. I can see what the point of the author is, so I don't fully agree with him. I never really cared for SCII before the Beta started. I got a key for the first wave, played a bunch of games (200-300) and the game never caught me. I stopped caring again, since it isn't fun - for me. I respect other people and their opinions. A thing I could observe was the vast majority switching, leaving you behind and start to characterize you as some stubborn broodwar-die-hard, that is just too old and conservative to accept changes. Then again the community somehow transformed in great parts, always telling stories how SCII would help the foreign E-Sports scene and how this game would own everything. I disagree. I don't see any chances for the e-Sports scene (whatever this is) to grow because of SCII being hyped all over the place. People start to give up their work and focus on SCII only, or at least pretend to do so. If they want to, I don't stop them. What really gets to me, and that's the point I will never ever understand, is why people still come to what's left of broodwar and saying our community would be dead, and at the same time saying that they are a bit bored by SCII for now. But all will eventually change the game needs still to be balanced bla bla bla, more add-ons coming, bla bla bla, so join the new SCII hype and get over your old game bla bla bla. Hell I don't want to, and I even don't want to hear about the game, because I do not care, not because I hate it. It's a good game, but I have a hard time to even compare it to my beloved Broodwar. The point what most people miss is that a game should be fun, not e-sports or a money making job that pays you off well enough to actually spend the rest of your life in luxury or whatever. It's not about what the majority thinks, it's what about gives you fun in your spare time. That's at least my opinion, and that's why I still like SCBW more than any other game, because it's fun and it's even fun to be part of "the dead community".
OP is painting everyone that likes SC2 as an ignorant elitists and claims only people that haven't played BW could be stupid enough to like SC2 ... which is what makes him an elitist. No-one cares that he doesn't like SC2, it's just that he doesn't like SC2 in every thread he posts in and insults the people that do like the game better than BW.
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Calgary25979 Posts
On December 31 2010 18:40 Zapdos_Smithh wrote:
I began to type this just as a reply to the post, but I would rather blog it so more people actually read this rather than just looking at the length and omitting it altogether.
Dumb. I will close this every time. Can you imagine if people did this for every comment they wrote? "Oh, I'll just open a new thread so more people read it."
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EPT
