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[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 89

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jaeds
Profile Joined September 2010
United States106 Posts
November 16 2010 10:10 GMT
#1761
On November 16 2010 19:02 Greentellon wrote:But I have serious problems versus Zerg.


i'm only ~1700 diamond MMR, but these two threads have helped my PvZ so much it's incredible

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167992 (ideas behind PvZ, all of it is very good/ must read despite length)

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167876 (scroll down to "blunk theory" -- read that, then click the link which takes you here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167876 and read nazgul's post.. if you want the build order, it's on the OP of the thread nazgul posted in)

basically, blink stalker crushes most zergs in pvz... EVEN IF they see it coming. i had no idea how strong it was until testing it out. it's just crucial to not let ANY stalkers die if possible

HongUnPrime has some replays of doing this very effectively, see his RO64 vs kyrix in GSL2 where he is playing at a huge disadvantage but his micro skills with blink stalkers almost let him come back. Idra lost to this in MLG dallas, that replay should be floating around.

hope this helps
johngalt90
Profile Joined May 2010
United States357 Posts
November 16 2010 10:12 GMT
#1762
you know i wont say they need a buff but it wouldnt hurt either. PvT is ridiculous i feel the same arguement applies to old ZvT. i feel like i have to play significantly better to get a w. i can also get a 80% win going vr,4gate, or dt but i honestly feel like i will only get so far doing this and correct pvt is getting an early robo but i get spanked by three raxes so much. then when i get a good defense going they FE or they do that banshee tank timing push.

PvZ is imo pretty even though roaches are awfully good now. blizz needs to address PvT
fuck the haters
andrewwiggin
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia435 Posts
November 16 2010 10:12 GMT
#1763

I just wish that we'd have some more brotoss in the GSL thats all, if only to increase the chances of having a Toss make it PAST ..what is it? ro8? ro4?

-_-


even ZERG when they were 'imbalanced' made it that far.. its just...painful.
Deleted User 124618
Profile Joined November 2010
1142 Posts
November 16 2010 10:24 GMT
#1764
On November 16 2010 19:10 jaeds wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2010 19:02 Greentellon wrote:But I have serious problems versus Zerg.


i'm only ~1700 diamond

hope this helps


Thank you! I'll look into these.
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
November 16 2010 10:24 GMT
#1765
I blame MBS for protosses problems.

Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
GoldenH
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1115 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-16 10:39:21
November 16 2010 10:36 GMT
#1766
On November 16 2010 18:52 StorrZerg wrote:
Well gsl would be better for toss, if the 3rd qualifying map wasn't scrap station
Map is just killer for toss.


http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/992623/GoldenH/map/14/scrap-station Hmm, no, don't think I agree.

Scrap Station seems to be my best map as Protoss.
"(Dudes are) not going to say "Buy this game — I cried at the end". (...) I suppose the secret is to find a game that makes you shoot eight million fuckin' dudes and then cry about how awesome it is to shoot eight million fuckin' dudes." - Tim Rogers
Skaya
Profile Joined August 2010
United States126 Posts
November 16 2010 10:38 GMT
#1767
@goldenH 1 player != a race

maybe show us overall race stats on the map?
xzidez
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden147 Posts
November 16 2010 10:46 GMT
#1768
On November 16 2010 19:36 GoldenH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2010 18:52 StorrZerg wrote:
Well gsl would be better for toss, if the 3rd qualifying map wasn't scrap station
Map is just killer for toss.


http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/992623/GoldenH/map/14/scrap-station Hmm, no, don't think I agree.

Scrap Station seems to be my best map as Protoss.



World rank: #72,951 of 2,138,383

Thats not really GSL material, and your opponents are probably not either. The thing is as you get better opponents that can "abuse" the map to the fullest, there will be a huge difference. Try get us the overall race statistics of top diamond on that map instead : )
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
November 16 2010 11:08 GMT
#1769
On November 16 2010 19:36 GoldenH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2010 18:52 StorrZerg wrote:
Well gsl would be better for toss, if the 3rd qualifying map wasn't scrap station
Map is just killer for toss.


http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/992623/GoldenH/map/14/scrap-station Hmm, no, don't think I agree.

Scrap Station seems to be my best map as Protoss.

wow so since you're a 1500 diamond, that means toss is good at scrap station? you should have not said anything.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
GoldenH
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1115 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-16 11:24:12
November 16 2010 11:23 GMT
#1770
lol, yeah, I should have just kept refining my builds that got me to rank 5000 in the world and the top 200 protoss players in NA and i was going up by 100 ranks a day, wait, oh no, I guess blizzard screwed protoss over and I have to learn the race all over again and use different units and fight tooth and nail against pushes that just weren't effective before so that I'm not allowed to make any comments about the game, thanks blizz.
"(Dudes are) not going to say "Buy this game — I cried at the end". (...) I suppose the secret is to find a game that makes you shoot eight million fuckin' dudes and then cry about how awesome it is to shoot eight million fuckin' dudes." - Tim Rogers
dtz
Profile Joined September 2010
5834 Posts
November 16 2010 11:53 GMT
#1771
Tester is out. Genius is probably one of the last hope as a Protoss hero ( and that Vicsong.werra/Startale guy) who i thought was quite good.
tehplank
Profile Joined October 2010
977 Posts
November 16 2010 11:55 GMT
#1772
Another sad day for Protoss. Tester fails to qualify again.
Minatozaki Sana / Hirai Momo / Myoui Mina / Yoo Jeongyeon / Zhou Tzuyu / Im Nayeon / Son Chaeyoung / Kim Dahyun / Park Jihyo
partysnatcher
Profile Joined August 2010
156 Posts
November 16 2010 12:17 GMT
#1773
On November 16 2010 19:46 xzidez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2010 19:36 GoldenH wrote:
On November 16 2010 18:52 StorrZerg wrote:
Well gsl would be better for toss, if the 3rd qualifying map wasn't scrap station
Map is just killer for toss.


http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/992623/GoldenH/map/14/scrap-station Hmm, no, don't think I agree.

Scrap Station seems to be my best map as Protoss.



World rank: #72,951 of 2,138,383

Thats not really GSL material, and your opponents are probably not either. The thing is as you get better opponents that can "abuse" the map to the fullest, there will be a huge difference. Try get us the overall race statistics of top diamond on that map instead : )


Oh god, I can't wait for the masters / grandmasters league so we can finally stop having these arguments.. (not to mention avoid having to see the inflated egos).
Metalwing
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Turkey1038 Posts
November 16 2010 12:18 GMT
#1774
On November 16 2010 20:53 dtz wrote:
Tester is out. Genius is probably one of the last hope as a Protoss hero ( and that Vicsong.werra/Startale guy) who i thought was quite good.


There is still MC and cyrano, the guy who represents the streets.
#1 CheckPrime fan // Terrans gonna Terran
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
November 16 2010 12:19 GMT
#1775
Of cause you can't draw an "Protoss is UP conclusion" from one or two tourneys.
I observe on the ladder, that most Protoss players at same rank have a lower APM compared to my Zerg APM, so maybe toss have to adapt to patch 1.1.2 reality.
Regarding ZvT it was similar in the past, but recently my terran opponents are in a similar APM range +-30% (APM is not everything, however one race should not loose regulary to players having a third the APM).
Anyway i think it won't help balance if they would unwind half the nerfs done to P in the last patches ..
21 is half the truth
Thurokiir
Profile Joined June 2010
United States779 Posts
November 16 2010 12:20 GMT
#1776
This is just too insane for me.
Tahts halo dont worry
partysnatcher
Profile Joined August 2010
156 Posts
November 16 2010 12:21 GMT
#1777
On November 13 2010 02:06 Xxavi wrote:
There's nobody like that! Cool (Fruitdealer)? He was never considered better than Tester during entire Beta period, I cannot believe he suddenly became better than Tester during GSL1. Who else there is even if I accept Fruitdealer to be better than all Toss players? Nobody! Zenio? Come on! Idra? It has to be a joke! Check? You gotta be kidding me.


I agree that Protoss needs to be looked at, but Cool and Check for instance are considerably better at mindgames, micro and timing than most GSL-players. You just have to watch their games. Tester now fails at qualification for the third time, seriously - it's time to find a new protoss hero.

He should at least make it into the RO64 if he really is as good as people claim.
seiferoth10
Profile Joined May 2010
3362 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-16 12:36:06
November 16 2010 12:35 GMT
#1778
I do agree that Protoss needs to be looked at, but changes should be extremely precise and well scrutinized before implemented.

It's easy for Protoss to be good (I'm talking all the way up to 2500+ MMR right now), but past that it's extremely hard to improve. So we need a change that allows the extreme top of Protoss players to excel while it doesn't really change that much for lower Protoss and royally screw up ladder for 99.5% of players.
yandere991
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia394 Posts
November 16 2010 12:37 GMT
#1779
On November 16 2010 21:19 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
Of cause you can't draw an "Protoss is UP conclusion" from one or two tourneys.
I observe on the ladder, that most Protoss players at same rank have a lower APM compared to my Zerg APM, so maybe toss have to adapt to patch 1.1.2 reality.
Regarding ZvT it was similar in the past, but recently my terran opponents are in a similar APM range +-30% (APM is not everything, however one race should not loose regulary to players having a third the APM).
Anyway i think it won't help balance if they would unwind half the nerfs done to P in the last patches ..


The "you can't draw conclusions from only one to two tournaments" was used against zerg and guess what, it didn't work. And if you're going to use APM as a indicator then lol, as a heavy heavy phoenix user my APM is constantly higher than my zergs opponents and sometimes when I do terrible and fly them over hydras I lose, does it mean I deserved to win?

But I'm sure you're right that the protoss in the GSL are people who sit on 40 apm while you zerg players have 200 more and therefore have some superior right to win.
Zealot Lord
Profile Joined May 2010
Hong Kong748 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-16 12:47:45
November 16 2010 12:44 GMT
#1780
The common saying from people was that 'protoss will adapt by GSL3' - but look how many qualified? Like 10? lol. I don't know how long it will take people to see that the 17 straight nerfs has left the race almost unusable at these tip top pro levels. Tester, whom many thought was the best protoss in SC2 for a period of time can't even qualify anymore - unless you think he suddenly lost all his skills, its seems obvious to me that it takes favorable matchups for a protoss to even be able to get to RO64 =/
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