|
On November 16 2010 05:25 Uncultured wrote:
Personally I think it has something do do with, when we go our safest most standard build, one bad FF is enough to kill us outright.
This is true at any point in the game. I was pushing, but I underestimated the amount of units zerg was making (he kept overseers patrolling near his bases for observers so i couldn't scout him at all) So when my push happened I did ok against his forward speedlings and they fell back to the ramp I tried to move up the ramp and then a huge ling Hydra force suddenly attacked with a hydra flank. I tried FFing the ramp but misplaced it just enough for zerglings to run down it while i was pulling back and zerg was able to surround my retreating units killing my army. He didn't have to do any micro work. (He actually had pretty bad micro during the battle) and a small misclick from me was enough to cost me the game.
|
You can bring up a lot of small things, like:
P units tend to be less cost effective prior to t3.
The P army is slow and cannot retreat, thus resulting in bad engagements being game-ending (2.25 speed on key units).
Extreme reliance on FF to not die for large periods of the game.
All create ways for P to be forced into non-standard play, or lose a game in the blink of an eye.
|
Russian Federation798 Posts
Ahh the forgotten third race of starcraft. I mean seriously even in brood war toss had the same problem while T and Z had periods of dominance. I think the main problem is the FF and the toss reliance on it for victory.
|
On November 16 2010 05:50 Jayrod wrote:
Yes, +1 armor and guardian shield is really awesome vs terran and is part of my fast expand build. Its REALLY REALLY effective, but it doesnt make it so you dont need tier 3 to compete with tier 1 terran in numbers.
I think the power of the 4 gate makes protoss hard to balance. Alot of people think with 4 gate you have to all in and go for the win. TT1 in the latest MLG showed another way of using 4 gate: to create a crapload of units that both prevent a fast expanding terran and help secure your own. Having a strong mid-game followup with a 4gate on the table could completely break the balance in all matchups. I would be for them nerfing 4 gate a little in exchange for some fluidity in the mid-game. Right now im not beating any zergs without blink stalkers or just being extremely aggressive and risky in the first 5 minutes. Versus really good terrans im struggling getting to the essential units in a way that doesnt leave me compeletely open for several minutes.
Forcefields certainly are the key to not dying midgame, but the investment in sentries basically eliminates your hopes of doing any type of clever harassment strategies/tactics because all the non- one dimensional harassment play needs the gas
I'm all for removing charge and replacing it with a cheaper zealot leg speed (100/100) only (to make them the same speed as zealots). Isn't this how it was in BW? Nerfing 4 gate is hard. They can make warpgates 100/100 and increase build time by 20 seconds which might force protoss to delay warp tech until after they have enough defensive units initially. These are just random ideas, but yeah, i tend to lose a lot in the mid-game as opposed the early game or late game.
|
Russian Federation798 Posts
Poll: What race do you as protoss have the most trouble againstZerg (64) 72% Terran (25) 28% 89 total votes Your vote: What race do you as protoss have the most trouble against (Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Terran
+ reasons why please
This poll can probably be refined a little better but it should give some idea of what the TL community thinks about toss and there MUs.
|
Protoss is to random, you always have to play risky, cause of no early-mid game scouting. Terran doesn't need to scout cause they only need marines/marauders to late game! Zerg can just make overseer/sacrifice a overlord.
|
The problem with protoss is that you have to play really well or you lose. Too much reliance on FF and micro.
|
I said it once and I'll say it again.
Protoss: Play perfectly and you win every time.
Make one mistake and you lose.
|
On November 16 2010 10:54 lowercase wrote:
I said it once and I'll say it again.
Protoss: Play perfectly and you win every time.
Make one mistake and you lose.
I'd say that applies more to Z. Z gets punished for every mistake, like drone time etc. T and P both have stalling mechanics.
You could be completely unprepared for my early game rush..but if you have a sentry it doesnt matter because you can FF the ramp until you are ready.
T can repair their wall etc etc.
If Z just pumped a round of drones early game and an attack comes, it's pretty much gg.
|
On November 16 2010 10:56 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 10:54 lowercase wrote:
I said it once and I'll say it again.
Protoss: Play perfectly and you win every time.
Make one mistake and you lose. You could be completely unprepared for my early game rush..but if you have a sentry it doesnt matter because you can FF the ramp until you are ready.
Does not compute.
Unprepared... has a sentry to deal with it... what?
That's like saying "You are unprepared for my banshees, but you have scans so it doesn't matter"
|
Personally I think it has something do do with, when we go our safest most standard build, one bad FF is enough to kill us outright.
|
On November 16 2010 11:32 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 10:56 Karthane wrote:On November 16 2010 10:54 lowercase wrote:
I said it once and I'll say it again.
Protoss: Play perfectly and you win every time.
Make one mistake and you lose. You could be completely unprepared for my early game rush..but if you have a sentry it doesnt matter because you can FF the ramp until you are ready. Does not compute. Unprepared... has a sentry to deal with it... what? That's like saying "You are unprepared for my banshees, but you have scans so it doesn't matter"
No, i'm saying that a sentry, which most if not all protoss's will make early game, can negate a rush that they did not see coming.
|
On November 16 2010 12:10 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 11:32 PJA wrote:On November 16 2010 10:56 Karthane wrote:On November 16 2010 10:54 lowercase wrote:
I said it once and I'll say it again.
Protoss: Play perfectly and you win every time.
Make one mistake and you lose. You could be completely unprepared for my early game rush..but if you have a sentry it doesnt matter because you can FF the ramp until you are ready. Does not compute. Unprepared... has a sentry to deal with it... what? That's like saying "You are unprepared for my banshees, but you have scans so it doesn't matter" No, i'm saying that a sentry, which most if not all protoss's will make early game, can negate a rush that they did not see coming.
But if you don't have units to kill off the opponent's guys, forcefielding your ramp for a few seconds is only going to delay the inevitable: speedlings surrounding every last building.
You're not going to forcefield forever.
|
On November 16 2010 12:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 12:10 Karthane wrote:On November 16 2010 11:32 PJA wrote:On November 16 2010 10:56 Karthane wrote:On November 16 2010 10:54 lowercase wrote:
I said it once and I'll say it again.
Protoss: Play perfectly and you win every time.
Make one mistake and you lose. You could be completely unprepared for my early game rush..but if you have a sentry it doesnt matter because you can FF the ramp until you are ready. Does not compute. Unprepared... has a sentry to deal with it... what? That's like saying "You are unprepared for my banshees, but you have scans so it doesn't matter" No, i'm saying that a sentry, which most if not all protoss's will make early game, can negate a rush that they did not see coming. But if you don't have units to kill off the opponent's guys, forcefielding your ramp for a few seconds is only going to delay the inevitable: speedlings surrounding every last building. You're not going to forcefield forever.
All i'm saying is that you have a stalling tactic that Z does not have, and if you warp in another sentry to help FF and then some more units you can hold off a push that would have probably killed an unprepared Z.
|
On November 16 2010 12:33 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 12:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 16 2010 12:10 Karthane wrote:On November 16 2010 11:32 PJA wrote:On November 16 2010 10:56 Karthane wrote:On November 16 2010 10:54 lowercase wrote:
I said it once and I'll say it again.
Protoss: Play perfectly and you win every time.
Make one mistake and you lose. You could be completely unprepared for my early game rush..but if you have a sentry it doesnt matter because you can FF the ramp until you are ready. Does not compute. Unprepared... has a sentry to deal with it... what? That's like saying "You are unprepared for my banshees, but you have scans so it doesn't matter" No, i'm saying that a sentry, which most if not all protoss's will make early game, can negate a rush that they did not see coming. But if you don't have units to kill off the opponent's guys, forcefielding your ramp for a few seconds is only going to delay the inevitable: speedlings surrounding every last building. You're not going to forcefield forever. All i'm saying is that you have a stalling tactic that Z does not have, and if you warp in another sentry to help FF and then some more units you can hold off a push that would have probably killed an unprepared Z.
Fair enough, although this means that one of two things are happening while you are committed into this play:
1. The Zerg will also reinforce his army with another batch of lings
2. He'll drone/ expand/ tech up since he's forced you into a defensive turtle position
While it's true that he may not be able to kill you outright at the moment (in the case of option 2), I think either way, the advantage is still with the Zerg players.
A sentry buys a little time but doesn't really even out the score.
|
The sentry is the only thing that allows protoss to survive. You often NEED to FF your ramp. There are a few timings (TvP especially) that you can not defend without stalling (using a force field).
Seeing zerg players whine about this fact is hilarious. We would love to have it another way. We would love the ability to fight, but we are doomed to hide.
|
United States2813 Posts
|
I find that the Zealot is the least-scaling core unit between the three.
Zerglings are always a core part of all armies and can be produced when needed in a flash.
Marines are... well, no reason to go past that.
Zealots are useful for the first few minutes, then quickly fall off in effectiveness in early game vs Terran, and fall away mid game vs Zerg. Charge puts them back in the fight against terran mid-late game, but only as a meat shield (and not a very good one at that)).
|
1/14 protoss so far today in the GSL qualifiers.
|
can't deny the statistic anymore it seems. sure statistic does not tell the whole story. but such an extreme showing..
i feel for the P foreigners especially
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
