EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 65
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
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Jirikii
Switzerland13 Posts
Win percentages Diamond | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On November 09 2010 08:59 Jirikii wrote: To get this thread going again and to show that this trend (No Toss in GSL Ro8) aplies not only to tournaments. This new statistic proves that Protoss in Korea/Eu have problems right now: Win percentages Diamond Actually that doesn't say that at all. The fact that T wins 3.4 more matches out of every 100 PvT matches does not "prove" anything. In fact, those numbers are kind of silly to hold up to the light, since they determine who you play based on where they think you will win about half of your games - the fact that people *are* winning about 50% of their matches in every matchup only means that they're doing their job well. And of course, if there were RIDICULOUS imbalances towards one race, the numbers would be very skewed, so that the race mattered more than the skill. I do agree that there's something wrong with Protoss, but for different reasons: It's interesting that everyone is quick to point out all the good players of other races and simply state that, if player X started as protoss 6 months ago, you wouldn't have anything to complain about. The fact of the matter is that if the best protoss players are unable to compete with the best zerg and terran players, that says something - and what it says isn't that everyone who plays toss magically has slower hand speed and worse decision making capabilities. Edit: Now, if we had numbers on how many matches this represented, perhaps we could determine confidence intervals, if we made some outrageous assumption about people's play at the top being consistent (which it isn't), but since we can't even do that, it's silly to say that these numbers which are intentionally skewed towards 50% mean something because they are *less* skewed than others. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
It's interesting that everyone is quick to point out all the good players of other races and simply state that, Well thats true, good players are not going to play a crippled race. Too much time and money involved to play that from that position. Guys who play toss play them cause they look coolest or it's what they are used to but switching day by day. Guys who play random like TLO sure don't settle in on Toss when finally going one race. | ||
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TungVu
Vietnam25 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On November 09 2010 11:51 TungVu wrote: Latest stats: Toss is the least played race in top 200 I'd like to see win loss since 1.1.2 among that crowd. I bet it's sorta like GSL 2. | ||
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gorath
Germany19 Posts
Great point(s). Suppose there was a bigger imbalance and that Protoss were significantly underpowered right now. But the win/loss ratios for Protoss would never be far off the 50% mark. Why? Because the matchmaking system would pair very strong Protoss against mediocre Zerg/Terran players. It is made to achieve 50/50 ratios for every player. I also think it is not viable to look at tournaments to find balance issues. The sample size is just too small, a few bad/unlucky games or differences in player-skill can completely skew the stats. The same basically is true for leagues. The sample size is a little bigger, but balance-changes due to patches don´t take effect as they would normally do if at some point during the season the balance is affected by a patch in some form (e.g. there are fewer players of race A to begin with b/c it was weak when the league started, a lot of players are already eliminated b/c the race was weak when it started etc.). Thats why I think it is actually better to look at the average points for the players in the high leagues (Diamond and maybe Platinum). The sample size is very big and due to this large number we can actually assume that the thousands of players each race have a pretty similar understanding of the game and comparable skill-levels. I think that the level of play of Diamond (and maybe high Platin) players is high enough to "use" the potential of their race and to show balance issues. And in contrast to the win/loss ratio, the points are a better indicator for a players strenght, because the system doesn´t force you towards a certain number. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all Even before that last patch, Zerg was overrepresented in the Diamond leagues (relative to the total players of each race) and had the highest average points. Now the difference is glaring. Only ~3,4% of the P/T players play in Diamond but 5% of the Z players - and that number is still increasing. Even the Top100 look like this right now: 43 Terrans 32 Zerg 25 Protoss I don´t necessarily feel like certain Protoss units need a DPS buff. I think its more the restrictions you have. Against Zerg you basically have to make the Zerg skip Mutalisks - or otherwise lose mapcontrol completely and suffer heavily from the harrass - , so only Phoenixes or a 4Gate push are viable. Against Terran you have to play a XGate-Robo tech because you can´t scout properly and have to be prepared for banshees. That makes it incredibly easy for the other races to play against protoss. A lot of stuff simply isn´t useful at high level of play (warp prism, DTs, Air in general). | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
On November 09 2010 12:02 gorath wrote: A lot of stuff simply isn´t useful at high level of play (warp prism, DTs, Air in general). I think Socke would heavily disagree with that as seen in Jinro vs Socke Game 2 on Desert Oasis. | ||
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Hellye
Portugal62 Posts
On November 09 2010 14:29 Subversion wrote: i think the protoss play we've seen in mlg for example, and games like tyler 4-1'ing idra have shown that toss need to redesign the way they play and they can be very successful. So you prefer the protoss goes all in vs zerg like tyler went every game? Or that we play like genius and just blind build order lose most games? | ||
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Flummie
Netherlands417 Posts
On November 09 2010 14:29 Subversion wrote: i think the protoss play we've seen in mlg for example, and games like tyler 4-1'ing idra have shown that toss need to redesign the way they play and they can be very successful. If tyler can pull this off time after time vs Fruitdealer/NEStea or zenio I would be more impressed  | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
On November 09 2010 16:02 Hellye wrote: So you prefer the protoss goes all in vs zerg like tyler went every game? Or that we play like genius and just blind build order lose most games? If Zerg is weak early to Protoss timing attacks, why not exploit that? 1-base plays were pretty much every Terran BO before patches arrived. | ||
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Hellye
Portugal62 Posts
Tyler did a 2 base timming attack at a cost of cutting alot of probes. this is a kind of fancy 4gate play. | ||
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Satire
Canada295 Posts
Keep in mind this is just my opinion, but I think that both Terran and Zerg are able to exploit the bulk of their avenues at this point because it's part of their overall forced tech path. Protoss needs to make very effective decisions on when to grab that 3rd tech path to make it pay off. I think this will simply take more time and experimenting from Protoss to make it happen. | ||
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ERGO
United States168 Posts
On November 09 2010 16:38 Subversion wrote: If Zerg is weak early to Protoss timing attacks, why not exploit that? 1-base plays were pretty much every Terran BO before patches arrived. what he is suggesting is that the suggestion you made does not lead to a stable playstyle and will not work repeatedly. Timing attacks are great, but blink stalker all ins where you wall yourself in and can't expand... | ||
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Flummie
Netherlands417 Posts
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Hellye
Portugal62 Posts
On November 09 2010 16:56 Satire wrote: Protoss has crisp timing windows and has trouble cheesing effectively against both Terran and Zerg without over-committing. I honestly think the major issue though is that people aren't using an effective end game plan. We still rarely see Shuttle's used at all. Carriers aren't even used, but they are absolutely INSANE damage output and are easy to retreat if you take care of them. Immortals aren't typically used once Colossi are out. The transition into the late game of both Zerg and Terran sees usage of Colossi and/or high templars, or both, but rarely sees the use of Protoss air. One can argue that that "is because Protoss air is useless", but that simply isn't so. People using Phoenix against Zerg to snipe Overseers while DTs/Stalkers/Zealots are able to harass and kill is just one example of Protoss air in action. I think that people just need to find ways to transition into using all 3 tech paths in the Protoss arsenal effectively. Keep in mind this is just my opinion, but I think that both Terran and Zerg are able to exploit the bulk of their avenues at this point because it's part of their overall forced tech path. Protoss needs to make very effective decisions on when to grab that 3rd tech path to make it pay off. I think this will simply take more time and experimenting from Protoss to make it happen. About not using warp prisms (shuttles?) or any air units, i think this is why we all are worried. We really want to use them but it is really diffcult to stay alive with those tech choices. btw Everytime i get a carrier/mothership i get a lol from the opponnent. | ||
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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
All the L2P arguments from non protoss makes me angry... I stopped playing protoss 10 games ago now. I've given up on toss. I chose them because they looked so awesome, I thought 'Wow, great revamp!'... Now I realise it was all a prank by Blizzard, who are ROFLing at all the protoss who continue to stick it out, hoping for some positive future change... ..when all they're going to get is a GG from David Kim when he nerfs Psi storm and protoss late game into the GROUND!! =( Makes me so sad.. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2013 Posts
Yes carriers cost lot, and hard to get, but when you hit critical amount, you can start facerolling anything with ground support | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On November 09 2010 05:43 Metalwing wrote: Tester is not terrible. He's just not that good. Both Zerg and Terran always had and always have some good names. Terran has BoxeRs, Nada, Maka, ITR, IMMVP, all that good jazz. Zerg has Check, Zenio, Fruitdealer, NesTea. These are all consistent players. The only thing that the Protoss race can call consistent is InCa. Tester failed to qualify in GSL Season 2, Genius was eliminated by DAVIT in season 1, MC couldn't qualify to season 1 and got eliminated in season 2 after doing 1 base allins to NesTea in both games and getting roflstomped. Except these 4, the only reason why Anypro and HongUn eliminated TheWind and Zenio respectively in season 1 is because zerg tiers 1 and 2 were ridiculous compared to protoss' corresponding tiers in patch 1.03 and those guys could press A button from keyboard and left click with mouse after selecting all their army with hotkey 1. And this is the reason why these 2 ever won a televised game. And in season 2, HongUn, the better player between these 2, got eliminated in ro64 by KyrixZenith with a score of 2-0 (no wins in televised games), which is a better season 2 record than Anypro's. Anypro couldn't even qualify to GSL season 2. So yes, it has some things to do with recent protoss nerfs and zerg buffs. Roach +1 range is just too big for protoss players to take. And Zealot spawn time nerf as well as lolray nerf. It's just too much. Blizz is too unfair to Protoss. After all, Toss is the race that should be able to 1a its way to GSL championships. Nope, it's because you just can't march to victory with protoss 1 base allins in GSL and Zerg and Terran players in GSL are not from Bronze Divisions of the EU server. And there is an issue related to consistency. The thing that no toss players are aware of (except InCa). Dude are you retarded? How does Nope, it's because you just can't march to victory with protoss 1 base allins in GSL and Zerg and Terran players in GSL are not from Bronze Divisions of the EU server. And there is an issue related to consistency. The thing that no toss players are aware of (except InCa). answer the question Well if apparently all Protoss players suck, might that coincidence with the fact that the " real good" players don't play Protoss because it's bad? in any logical sense? To reinforce the point people like IntoTheRainbow who actually played Toss in BW, switched to Terran in sc2. I'm sure its all just a coincidence (not). and FYI terrans are the race that keeps doing 1 base allins vs Toss, because they fear a macro toss. Even taking the MLG games as an example, every time Jinro decided to do an all-in with Ravens + Banshees + scvs he basically roflstomps TT1, its not even close. But hey, dont let logic get in the way of your blind hatred. | ||
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