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On November 09 2010 22:04 Wayem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 21:57 Cloak wrote:
Honestly, it really boils down to Zergling/Roach and Marine/Marauder being much, much, much better units for early game. Speedlings gain automatic map control, cost no gas, and can contend with 4gate level production and afford to expand. Roaches are Roaches. If anyone's played a PvZ as of late, they know how great they are. As for Terran, there's no denying the strength of Marine/Marauder.
Even if Zerg or Terran fast expand, they can still pressure a Toss enough to slow down their expo or defend against any 1 base strat Protoss can throw at them. As of right now, there's no advantage given to Toss until T3. They can't outmuscle or outmacro a smart Zerg/Terran who knows their timings. Toss is pigeonholed into playing the safest of the safe builds (more like build) to have a chance. In PvT I agree with you. It's turtle, tech and hope. In PvZ however... you can't let him macro. When you watch a lot of high level PvZ, you realize that the protoss has to commit to a cheese/all in and hope to do a lot of damage. If he does not, gg, if he does the game is even. There is no way you can gain map control except if you all in. That is the main problem. Idra says that when the protoss will figure out the timings it will be P>Z. I tend to think the opposite (I know this sounds cocky and I know it's surely because I lack some knowledge + I love Idra). When Z will figure out how to manage the 6gate/5gate +1 big push mid game, it will be gg no re.
Believe me, I do the 2xStalker pressure before Speedling and blind counter Roach with Robo 2 Immortal push and like 6 gates from a 3gate expand, and he has way too much stuff by the time I can get out and pressure his up and coming third. I'm honestly at a loss. HuK got owned in MLG for doing 3 Gate expand too. Right now there no legitimate answer other than Zerg screwing up or taking massive risks like a 15 Nexus.
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On November 09 2010 19:18 QuantumTheory wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 19:08 zomgad wrote:On November 09 2010 18:14 Cloak wrote:On November 09 2010 14:29 Subversion wrote:
i think the protoss play we've seen in mlg for example, and games like tyler 4-1'ing idra have shown that toss need to redesign the way they play and they can be very successful. Idra stated that Tyler's strat has a glaring weakness and will never be able to beat him again if he tries it. Kinda sums up the state of Protoss metagame right now. On November 09 2010 12:02 gorath wrote:
Even the Top100 look like this right now:
43 Terrans
32 Zerg
25 Protoss
What's stupid is that Protoss is the most popular race overall. The most played race is dead last. Obviously nothing is wrong. source? because i was under the imprssion that terran was the most popular race in this game. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allTerran's been OP but hardly the most played race..
wow, im shocked, i mean this is nothing new at all, its like this since release and there are still people who arent aware of it?
and you forget the scary part. the trend. especially with zerg
they more than doubled their numbers since gsl 1 finals. this is scary
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The thing I'm wondering about is, Protoss being OverPowered lategame. I discussed this with a mate of mine (he plays T, I play Z and P), and at first we sort of blindly took over this notion that Protoss is incredibly overpowered late game. Untill we actually asked ourselves if we had experienced this... or had seen this in tournaments.... or heard this from friends.... to all of which the answer was no. Now ofcourse this proves fuck-all but really.... can anyone show me a couple of games where Protoss' immense supposed overpoweredness late-game shows? I can't recall a single game in either MLG, IEM or GSL where I saw such a thing, I dont recall having that much trouble lategame against P as Zerg and neither does my mate as Terran... so where does this idea come from? JUST the templar+amulet? Is it really that unavoidable? Enlighten me! =)
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source? because i was under the imprssion that terran was the most popular race in this game.
Honestly, if you read the thread its all there. Or google it. I hate when people try to make a point by just questioning everything that doesn´t go along with their own opinion.
So, again, the link: http://sc2ranks.com/stats
If you browse through you will see, that Protoss has the most players overall (last time I checked: P/T/Z was 2,9/2,8/1,6 million players), that Zerg has by far the most players in Diamond relative to their player base (P/T/Z 3,5%/3,4%/5%) and by far the most average points per player in Diamond. Even the Top100 are extremely weak for Protoss (P/T/Z 25 vs. 43 vs. 32) and the trend goes on.
These stats reflect millions of games played and tens of thousands of players. To suggest that the overall skill level of all these players just differs so significantly from race to race is just stupid.
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On November 09 2010 23:19 Promises wrote:
The thing I'm wondering about is, Protoss being OverPowered lategame. I discussed this with a mate of mine (he plays T, I play Z and P), and at first we sort of blindly took over this notion that Protoss is incredibly overpowered late game. Untill we actually asked ourselves if we had experienced this... or had seen this in tournaments.... or heard this from friends.... to all of which the answer was no. Now ofcourse this proves fuck-all but really.... can anyone show me a couple of games where Protoss' immense supposed overpoweredness late-game shows? I can't recall a single game in either MLG, IEM or GSL where I saw such a thing, I dont recall having that much trouble lategame against P as Zerg and neither does my mate as Terran... so where does this idea come from? JUST the templar+amulet? Is it really that unavoidable? Enlighten me! =)
you dont get it, do you?
if protoss just stands a normal chance of beating t, its considered overpowered.
man, really, get used to the new standards. even being one step away from the brink of losing is considered op. i mean, cmon, protoss players just suck, there are no good protoss players out there. no progamers that came from bw and there are only new terran and zerg talents rising, like tlo (supreme commander player). there are no protoss players training for 10-12 hours a day. damn, you really dont have any clue, do you?
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Protoss are not "overpowered". It is just the zerg / terran players that claim their race "requires moar skill" whining. Mostly it is terrans that want to keep massing T1 units vs expensive toss T3 and faceroll. Oh shit, toss has storms! Seriously, no more T + A + click. If you don't want to build tanks / ghosts / w/e, storm is overpowered, I reckon that.
The point is - protoss T3 do melt through your t1/t2 units, yes. Toss has to get T3 in order to kill your t1/t2 effectively. You can use your t1/t2 to kill anything a toss will throw at you before he gets T3.
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On November 09 2010 23:45 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 23:19 Promises wrote:
The thing I'm wondering about is, Protoss being OverPowered lategame. I discussed this with a mate of mine (he plays T, I play Z and P), and at first we sort of blindly took over this notion that Protoss is incredibly overpowered late game. Untill we actually asked ourselves if we had experienced this... or had seen this in tournaments.... or heard this from friends.... to all of which the answer was no. Now ofcourse this proves fuck-all but really.... can anyone show me a couple of games where Protoss' immense supposed overpoweredness late-game shows? I can't recall a single game in either MLG, IEM or GSL where I saw such a thing, I dont recall having that much trouble lategame against P as Zerg and neither does my mate as Terran... so where does this idea come from? JUST the templar+amulet? Is it really that unavoidable? Enlighten me! =) you dont get it, do you? if protoss just stands a normal chance of beating t, its considered overpowered. man, really, get used to the new standards. even being one step away from the brink of losing is considered op. i mean, cmon, protoss players just suck, there are no good protoss players out there. no progamers that came from bw and there are only new terran and zerg talents rising, like tlo (supreme commander player). there are no protoss players training for 10-12 hours a day. damn, you really dont have any clue, do you?
Tester and nexgenius to name a few are old BW pro's and such is duckload ra.
Who are you btw?
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On November 09 2010 23:53 Flummie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 23:45 ensis wrote:On November 09 2010 23:19 Promises wrote:
The thing I'm wondering about is, Protoss being OverPowered lategame. I discussed this with a mate of mine (he plays T, I play Z and P), and at first we sort of blindly took over this notion that Protoss is incredibly overpowered late game. Untill we actually asked ourselves if we had experienced this... or had seen this in tournaments.... or heard this from friends.... to all of which the answer was no. Now ofcourse this proves fuck-all but really.... can anyone show me a couple of games where Protoss' immense supposed overpoweredness late-game shows? I can't recall a single game in either MLG, IEM or GSL where I saw such a thing, I dont recall having that much trouble lategame against P as Zerg and neither does my mate as Terran... so where does this idea come from? JUST the templar+amulet? Is it really that unavoidable? Enlighten me! =) you dont get it, do you? if protoss just stands a normal chance of beating t, its considered overpowered. man, really, get used to the new standards. even being one step away from the brink of losing is considered op. i mean, cmon, protoss players just suck, there are no good protoss players out there. no progamers that came from bw and there are only new terran and zerg talents rising, like tlo (supreme commander player). there are no protoss players training for 10-12 hours a day. damn, you really dont have any clue, do you? Tester and nexgenius to name a few are old BW pro's and such is duckload ra. Who are you btw?
Dude, he was sarcastic :o
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On November 09 2010 23:54 Wayem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 23:53 Flummie wrote:On November 09 2010 23:45 ensis wrote:On November 09 2010 23:19 Promises wrote:
The thing I'm wondering about is, Protoss being OverPowered lategame. I discussed this with a mate of mine (he plays T, I play Z and P), and at first we sort of blindly took over this notion that Protoss is incredibly overpowered late game. Untill we actually asked ourselves if we had experienced this... or had seen this in tournaments.... or heard this from friends.... to all of which the answer was no. Now ofcourse this proves fuck-all but really.... can anyone show me a couple of games where Protoss' immense supposed overpoweredness late-game shows? I can't recall a single game in either MLG, IEM or GSL where I saw such a thing, I dont recall having that much trouble lategame against P as Zerg and neither does my mate as Terran... so where does this idea come from? JUST the templar+amulet? Is it really that unavoidable? Enlighten me! =) you dont get it, do you? if protoss just stands a normal chance of beating t, its considered overpowered. man, really, get used to the new standards. even being one step away from the brink of losing is considered op. i mean, cmon, protoss players just suck, there are no good protoss players out there. no progamers that came from bw and there are only new terran and zerg talents rising, like tlo (supreme commander player). there are no protoss players training for 10-12 hours a day. damn, you really dont have any clue, do you? Tester and nexgenius to name a few are old BW pro's and such is duckload ra. Who are you btw? Dude, he was sarcastic :o
And I fell for it cuz I am blind.. srrrrrrrrrrrr
anyway his point is proven now I guess ;D
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On November 09 2010 23:54 Wayem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 23:53 Flummie wrote:On November 09 2010 23:45 ensis wrote:On November 09 2010 23:19 Promises wrote:
The thing I'm wondering about is, Protoss being OverPowered lategame. I discussed this with a mate of mine (he plays T, I play Z and P), and at first we sort of blindly took over this notion that Protoss is incredibly overpowered late game. Untill we actually asked ourselves if we had experienced this... or had seen this in tournaments.... or heard this from friends.... to all of which the answer was no. Now ofcourse this proves fuck-all but really.... can anyone show me a couple of games where Protoss' immense supposed overpoweredness late-game shows? I can't recall a single game in either MLG, IEM or GSL where I saw such a thing, I dont recall having that much trouble lategame against P as Zerg and neither does my mate as Terran... so where does this idea come from? JUST the templar+amulet? Is it really that unavoidable? Enlighten me! =) you dont get it, do you? if protoss just stands a normal chance of beating t, its considered overpowered. man, really, get used to the new standards. even being one step away from the brink of losing is considered op. i mean, cmon, protoss players just suck, there are no good protoss players out there. no progamers that came from bw and there are only new terran and zerg talents rising, like tlo (supreme commander player). there are no protoss players training for 10-12 hours a day. damn, you really dont have any clue, do you? Tester and nexgenius to name a few are old BW pro's and such is duckload ra. Who are you btw? Dude, he was sarcastic :o
as hell, and i thought i made it clear enough^^ thanks
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On November 09 2010 23:56 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 23:54 Wayem wrote:On November 09 2010 23:53 Flummie wrote:On November 09 2010 23:45 ensis wrote:On November 09 2010 23:19 Promises wrote:
The thing I'm wondering about is, Protoss being OverPowered lategame. I discussed this with a mate of mine (he plays T, I play Z and P), and at first we sort of blindly took over this notion that Protoss is incredibly overpowered late game. Untill we actually asked ourselves if we had experienced this... or had seen this in tournaments.... or heard this from friends.... to all of which the answer was no. Now ofcourse this proves fuck-all but really.... can anyone show me a couple of games where Protoss' immense supposed overpoweredness late-game shows? I can't recall a single game in either MLG, IEM or GSL where I saw such a thing, I dont recall having that much trouble lategame against P as Zerg and neither does my mate as Terran... so where does this idea come from? JUST the templar+amulet? Is it really that unavoidable? Enlighten me! =) you dont get it, do you? if protoss just stands a normal chance of beating t, its considered overpowered. man, really, get used to the new standards. even being one step away from the brink of losing is considered op. i mean, cmon, protoss players just suck, there are no good protoss players out there. no progamers that came from bw and there are only new terran and zerg talents rising, like tlo (supreme commander player). there are no protoss players training for 10-12 hours a day. damn, you really dont have any clue, do you? Tester and nexgenius to name a few are old BW pro's and such is duckload ra. Who are you btw? as hell, and i thought i made it clear enough^^ thanks Dude, he was sarcastic :o
Yeh srr again  your point proven.. I agree 
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On November 09 2010 23:19 Promises wrote:
The thing I'm wondering about is, Protoss being OverPowered lategame. I discussed this with a mate of mine (he plays T, I play Z and P), and at first we sort of blindly took over this notion that Protoss is incredibly overpowered late game. Untill we actually asked ourselves if we had experienced this... or had seen this in tournaments.... or heard this from friends.... to all of which the answer was no. Now ofcourse this proves fuck-all but really.... can anyone show me a couple of games where Protoss' immense supposed overpoweredness late-game shows? I can't recall a single game in either MLG, IEM or GSL where I saw such a thing, I dont recall having that much trouble lategame against P as Zerg and neither does my mate as Terran... so where does this idea come from? JUST the templar+amulet? Is it really that unavoidable? Enlighten me! =)
I suggest you to imagine Protoss ball of death in right hands (by in right hands I mean Tester/Genious/HuK playing). Ball of death consists of HT, Colossi, Stalker, Zealot, Sentry, Immortal. Now, as a terran what can you do vs that?
-Of course you can go mass Thor, but its unrealistic, you don't have enough factories.
-Tanks? Protoss will just walk away and take expo.
-MMM? they're melted right away.
-EMP? again, protoss walks away since you can't attack kiting Colossis.
Thats called protoss late game advantage.
But the actual problem is that protoss just don't survive till late game. Its Dilemma, which can be solved only by Blizzard.
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On November 10 2010 01:10 bokeevboke wrote:I suggest you to imagine Protoss ball of death in right hands (by in right hands I mean Tester/Genious/HuK playing). Ball of death consists of HT, Colossi, Stalker, Zealot, Sentry, Immortal. Now, as a terran what can you do vs that?
Well if we're "imagining" death balls, the Terran can use his 200 battle cruiser fleet.
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On November 09 2010 23:48 MolestedRabbit wrote:
Protoss are not "overpowered". It is just the zerg / terran players that claim their race "requires moar skill" whining. Mostly it is terrans that want to keep massing T1 units vs expensive toss T3 and faceroll. Oh shit, toss has storms! Seriously, no more T + A + click. If you don't want to build tanks / ghosts / w/e, storm is overpowered, I reckon that.
The point is - protoss T3 do melt through your t1/t2 units, yes. Toss has to get T3 in order to kill your t1/t2 effectively. You can use your t1/t2 to kill anything a toss will throw at you before he gets T3.
you've summed up the major issues of PvT right there. Viking's ridiculous 9 range is allegedly for colossus. Play any decent terran and they should pressure you enough that you should be constantly replenishing your forces nonstop preventing you from reaching T3. The issue I feel is that P is balanced assuming you have colossus resulting is somewhat weaker GW units compared to BW. Against T you must always get a Robo, lest you fall to banshee harass garbage.
On storms..the damage has been nerfed over 40% compared to BW, back when it actually killed mutas. In addition, the radius was decreased and they can be too easily EMPed by ghosts due to their range advantage.
Air is another problem. If Viking's hard counter colossus, what counters the vikings? Phoenix's for the cost lose to Viking's which can also be made quicker. Phoenix dmg/range and Viking range changes maybe.
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On November 10 2010 01:18 90ti wrote:Air is another problem. If Viking's hard counter colossus, what counters the vikings?
Stalkers...
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On November 10 2010 01:19 Applecakes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 01:18 90ti wrote:Air is another problem. If Viking's hard counter colossus, what counters the vikings? Stalkers...
Yeah I can't imagine what Protoss can make that could shoot up... :p
I think what makes the Protoss ball with HT so effective, for the majority of non-pro microers, is the fact that in order to allow a ghost to get close enough to EMP the HTs, you need troops defending the ghost to stop it being killed (as there's always an observer in the mix), so you need to send your troops in to make sure that it's safe to send your troops in... tricky!
Don't get me wrong, I just think it's very challenging, not unfair!
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lol applecakes and Koh, did you really think I meant Vikings versus Stalkers on their own? Try taking on MMM + Vikings versus Colossus and the usual zeal/stalker/sentry mix. The stalkers are owned hard by the stimmed marauders and the Vikings take out the colossus with ease due to their crazy air range. The marines well they clean up whatever is left.
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Really? How do you make them do all that? My little terran men just die. 
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Be happy terran still uses T1 units to fight protoss. The game would end up being awful if you had to mass thors or so in late-game, because they're an awkward sort of support unit. Marines are the backbone of the terran army, there are several upgrades to make them powerful up to the end of the game, they're micro-intensive and mostly fun units. Protoss uses T1 units throughout the game as well. Just because you get a few colossi or high templar doesn't mean you have a "T3 army". You use tech-units to augment your main gateway unit force and hope to get an advantage agains t a terran who uses barracks units with some high-tech units as well (ghosts, vikings, medivacs). Terran T1 beats Protoss T3 is just a silly myth.
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latest stats in EU: Toss is again the least played race in top 200. If there is nothing wrong w Protoss then I dont know what to say.
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EPT
