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Yeah but, Diamond is soo wide of a skill range that it's hard to judge. Also, GSL Zergs were rolling through but once it got to the later stages of the tourney they dropped like flies, and you got to take into account that the zergs got lucky with 1a Roach all-ins. It's fairly new in zvp because of the roach buff, but once it's played enough it won't be too strong.
I swear that I've only seen one VoD where Protoss actually won a lategame against zerg...
EDIT: for some clarification - I mean recently. In GSL and MLG.
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On November 09 2010 01:26 dragonblade369 wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah but, Diamond is soo wide of a skill range that it's hard to judge. Also, GSL Zergs were rolling through but once it got to the later stages of the tourney they dropped like flies, and you got to take into account that the zergs got lucky with 1a Roach all-ins. It's fairly new in zvp because of the roach buff, but once it's played enough it won't be too strong. I swear that I've only seen one VoD where Protoss actually won a lategame against zerg... EDIT: for some clarification - I mean recently. In GSL and MLG.
It's the same shit for terran, no win possible if the game go to late game against zerg (or protoss :/). Unless you're foxer and manage to stay in early-mid game for 35 minutes :D
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On November 09 2010 00:40 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 18:43 bokeevboke wrote:
I will be happy if they nerf psi-storms. Psi-storms are creating an illusion of PvT being balanced. After its nerf all problems of the matchup will be revealed.
Like total crapness of gateway units, forced robo tech, immobility, lack of harass options, EMPs. Yup, nerf Colossi too, when protoss doesn't have our 1 good build anymore, then we will lose every game and blizz will have to make changes.
Dunno if you meant that seriously, but the excessive power of ranged colossi forces Vikings to have 9 range (which ruins slow air units against Terran in all matchups) and probably forces other Protoss units to be weak. (I might also blame Marauders' 20 vs. armored damage on them, because Vikings and Marauders are the forced Terran response.)
I would switch Extended Thermal Lances to the Immortal and give Colossus 7 base range. A slow, bulky, short-ranged unit that only hits ground is pretty stupid. At the same time, a 9-range high-damage splash unit that can walk over other units and climb up-and-down cliffs? There's a reason PvP devolves into Colossus vs. Colossus.
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I am absolutely serious about nerfing Colossi, down to 12 damage per attack.
I think the important thing to note about Colossi is because they have splash damage, all a damage nerf will do is mean we have to mass even more colossi and it would eliminate the food advantage that Protoss supposedly has with maxed armies.
But early game, people are rushing out Colossi just to survive, not because one colossi does terrible damage but that it makes the enemy willing to trade armies instead of just kite our units to death. It's absurd and we should be able to hold off attacks with good micro, not being reliant on brute force and questionable decision making on our opponent's part.
Reducing Colossi range would make them worthless even if they had huge DPS because they could just kite all our units to death. Aside from racial imbalance, if you have ever seen the terrible splash damage that is done by collosus vs colossus, standing over their own units, you would want to make sure that colossus has enough range to stand back.
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Colossi ought to be changed in some way--PvP is quite stale(watch in the GSL too, many of the P's there have the game devolve into the same 'war of the worlds' mentality'). If the AOE damage was lessened, perhaps there would be some reason to have gateway units be slightly better: i.e., less dependent on forcefield to trade even. It's frustrating to see how effective certain units--Roach, Marauder--are against P en masse, when the P must respond with variety of units and tactics to seemingly one dimensional play.
I've recently been fighting some terrans on ladder that are *NOT* keeping their army in a "1A" formation. Colossi become nearly useless against the MMM ball because of this, and I think it's only a matter of time before better unit micro starts to make some problems of the Protoss more apparent. No "QQ" here, just an observation from my own play--and I accept the good strategy of my opponents.
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Before we go nerfing Colossi for the sake of PvP, let's look at why you can't get away with spamming Colossus in PvZ and PvT. Oh yea, that's right, their air doesn't suck.
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On November 09 2010 02:09 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 01:26 dragonblade369 wrote:Yeah but, Diamond is soo wide of a skill range that it's hard to judge. Also, GSL Zergs were rolling through but once it got to the later stages of the tourney they dropped like flies, and you got to take into account that the zergs got lucky with 1a Roach all-ins. It's fairly new in zvp because of the roach buff, but once it's played enough it won't be too strong. I swear that I've only seen one VoD where Protoss actually won a lategame against zerg... EDIT: for some clarification - I mean recently. In GSL and MLG. It's the same shit for terran, no win possible if the game go to late game against zerg (or protoss :/). Unless you're foxer and manage to stay in early-mid game for 35 minutes :D
If that were true we would have A LOT less terrans and protoss in the top 16 in the gsl. Things might not be completely balance, but please don't use these ridiculous hyperboles.
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Yeah, definitely. A lot of players seem to get in the late game marauder ball and be willing to attack in one wave through narrow chokes. When you see players do stutter step micro in late game, or even just try and surround you, then your collossi start to melt no matter what.
It actually takes quite a bit of micro to manage a toss ball late game. You need to make sure all your collossus are attacking the same place, and a different place each attack. You need to keep your zealots and immortals from getting stuck behind stalkers, your immortals are attacking armored units and your stalkers either killing air, hiding back until the marauders are dead, or flanking the enemy. Psi Storm has to be used on a different target than your collossus and you have to watch which templar are out of energy and manually merge them, and pick off ghosts / ravens with feedback. You need to warp in units. You need your sentries spread out through your army for guardian shields and a few at the edges for forcefields/hallucinate. You need to keep your phoenix from flying over marines.
It is intense.
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On November 09 2010 03:07 Cloak wrote:
Before we go nerfing Colossi for the sake of PvP, let's look at why you can't get away with spamming Colossus in PvZ and PvT. Oh yea, that's right, their air doesn't suck.
Thats a separate issue really. VR nerfs and phoenix not being viable without still making your own immortal/collosus? Carriers being super vulnerable to blink stalkers and a rather low DPS? I don't really think Air can be a good choice late game. Blink Stalkers are protoss' best answer to air, and they need to be buffed, so even if Protoss air gets buffed, it still won't be a great idea without robo support.
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On November 08 2010 22:33 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 18:46 Hellye wrote:On November 08 2010 18:33 Jayson X wrote:People people! Common with the constant whining! What is this? On November 08 2010 16:25 andrewwiggin wrote:
Terran cried about roaches, and zerg roaches got nerfed in beta.
Zerg cried about being crap, and got buffed after beta.
Protoss cry about REAL ISSUES i.e. early units getting kited, least cost effective units of the game (cost-effective in an isolated UNIT TESTER maybe..) .. and what happens?
David Kim starts thinking about how to nerf Psi storm.
-_____- So this is how balance is approached now? "He got something and he got something, I want it too!!". This is exactly what I was worried before SC2 came out. This constant stream of venting without any proper suggestion but "make this or that stronger because I just got overrun by it". Meanwhile players like HuK and Socke maintain some of the highest win-percentages in the world. You can't just go on a rant and completely ignore how fragile balance is! Balance isn't about making it easier for you every time any time. And it certainly isn't about giving you a chance to stop strategies that perfectly hard counter yours. This is exactly why Blizzard is waiting and why it's necessary to let things roll by itself for a while. Timings have to evolve. Your job is to play the game and put your braincells to work. Which quite honestly I think some of you just refuse to do. And that is a shame because you miss out on evolving as a player... So the old L2p argument huh? I would love if these were thrown right before roach range when fruitdealer won the GSL... no roach range would have been so awesome ( they didnt need it, they just had to learn how to play without it off course ). Just because Huk gets some wins the game is fine??.... LOL... how about in korea where there are real terran pros who are agressive early enough to take most win percentages against protoss? This isnt just 1 player who noticed. There is a growing aware that something is wrong with the race. fruitdealer played terrans almost exclusively and you cry about zvp balance in relation to gsl before the patch? wtf? The amount of crying that goes on in this thread is staggering to say the least, yes protoss has issues, issues that wont be fixed before an expansion or two, Just like how zerg still has issues. Even so, protosses can take games of terran and zergs regardless of what level of skill they are at. NexGenius is a prime example on the state of protoss as a whole. Right up there with the other races, even when half their units never see play more than once or twice a year. If you are this unsatisfied with the reliance on robo play maybe play a different race while you wait for buffs?
your right they can, this is due to late game collosi + HT being 100% unstoppable by the terran... gah maybe if you played in some high quality matches you might understand, just watching a highly skilled player doesn't give you first hand knowledge of how the game works. as it stands protoss have a slightly weak early game, but is made up for by their incredible ability to completly STOP all early aggression from an opponent by literally pressing F and selecting a location to drop a Force Field(rush stopped thank you for coming).. man i know that's pretty crazy in its awesomeness right?, mid game..well you have either collosi or working to templar or going phoenix with ground forces... all units that can defend very well..late game, this is where protoss becomes god... once youve reached late game and control 3 or more bases, you tech is full laid out, and you can now get Both Collosi(with range) and high templar with storm..
no what counters HT and Collosi together?, ghosts emp the templar right, well damn, that's 6 marauders i could have built instead, so now i have an army prolly 10-15+ Maraduers short cus i have a few ghosts =(... Even if i hit an EMP on every templar(thats most likely spread out to the point youll never get them all) it doesnt mean im going to win, now the collosi with range and their zealot wall and eating my entire army. and if i didnt get the Best emps you have ever seen in a game, then well my army is not only getting lazered up by the collosi it is get Stormed which forces my army to move WHILE the collosi are smashing my brains in.. awsome and then you storm agian and agian.. army is dead 100% win rate man amazing...
fighting a zerg is prolly a little harder late game but still just as easy...you drop gateways get templar and collosi, and get enough sentries to keep the zerg from ever getting a surround on your army, and youve won the game agian with HT/Collosi..(roaches are not enough of a counter..ultras are their only hope vs protoss) same issue with the zerg as Terran have, if i counter the collosi by building alot of roaches you just mix in a couple immortals 1-3 and you own me, if i counter the HT by getting infestors, you just feed back them before i can fungal growth your HT...so my only options is to tech switch from a mass of mutalisks ive been using to harass you into a huge mass of roach/ultra to even stand a chance
and you ask yourself why protoss needs a buff? and if they get a buff what is blizzard going to do about the strength of both HT and Collosi working together withen the late game?
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On November 09 2010 01:05 GoldenH wrote:
Heh, yeah, I lost a game yesterday where I had 50% more army and money, but because he had 8 collosus and I had 20 high templar, it didn't matter. I used to play BGH as toss and kill EVERYTHING with psi storm. Now, its like a support spell at best.
So yeah, nerf psi storm more!
Here is the thing with the sentry. Imagine if instead of marine & marauder having stim, it was on a slow, weak support unit. You did not even need a spell to stop it, it has to be near the front. You just make sure its the first unit that you snipe.
Protoss army is balanced around good forcefields / guardian shield to be EVEN. No matter how much you lose to a good forcefield you should watch the replay and go "hey, he really spent a lot of money on that army that slowed his tech and economy". So if we choose not to make that many sentries, we are at a disadvantage. Also if you are ready for it, and have equal micro, you can dodge the forcefields, run away, and 10 seconds later its like we didn't make any sentries.
I tend to agree psi storm does not need a nerf, despite it being "better" against low hp units if you have a ton of HTs and smart cast all over. I felt in BW psi storm helped balance out Protoss's rigidity problems by having a damage spell that was decent or good against most things even if their main army units were not.
In SC2, because they are trying to encourage Terran bio options and such they are trying to keep storm in check. But with lackluster anti-air and expensive low dps main army (read, worse for harass), I don't think nerfing storm anymore is a good idea.
The FF argument is sound for certain engagements for sure. It's fun to use, but the map has to have a lot of "protoss friendly" engagement points... which I'm not sure is practical.
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And how many bases are you on Nazarid? The most problem I see against Terran is their not having enough gas.
Yeah sure, we kill you with colossus. But we want to kill you with other stuff, because colossi are boring, and even though we have to micro them, there is only a marginal benefit of doing so. So nerf colossi, buff everything else.
Still have to be really confused about any complaint, how Colossus + HT + Immortal is supposed to be better than Seige Tank + Ghost + Viking. I have much more trouble with Seige Tank + Ghost + Viking than I ever do with bio.
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On November 08 2010 22:33 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 18:46 Hellye wrote:On November 08 2010 18:33 Jayson X wrote:People people! Common with the constant whining! What is this? On November 08 2010 16:25 andrewwiggin wrote:
Terran cried about roaches, and zerg roaches got nerfed in beta.
Zerg cried about being crap, and got buffed after beta.
Protoss cry about REAL ISSUES i.e. early units getting kited, least cost effective units of the game (cost-effective in an isolated UNIT TESTER maybe..) .. and what happens?
David Kim starts thinking about how to nerf Psi storm.
-_____- So this is how balance is approached now? "He got something and he got something, I want it too!!". This is exactly what I was worried before SC2 came out. This constant stream of venting without any proper suggestion but "make this or that stronger because I just got overrun by it". Meanwhile players like HuK and Socke maintain some of the highest win-percentages in the world. You can't just go on a rant and completely ignore how fragile balance is! Balance isn't about making it easier for you every time any time. And it certainly isn't about giving you a chance to stop strategies that perfectly hard counter yours. This is exactly why Blizzard is waiting and why it's necessary to let things roll by itself for a while. Timings have to evolve. Your job is to play the game and put your braincells to work. Which quite honestly I think some of you just refuse to do. And that is a shame because you miss out on evolving as a player... So the old L2p argument huh? I would love if these were thrown right before roach range when fruitdealer won the GSL... no roach range would have been so awesome ( they didnt need it, they just had to learn how to play without it off course ). Just because Huk gets some wins the game is fine??.... LOL... how about in korea where there are real terran pros who are agressive early enough to take most win percentages against protoss? This isnt just 1 player who noticed. There is a growing aware that something is wrong with the race. fruitdealer played terrans almost exclusively and you cry about zvp balance in relation to gsl before the patch? wtf? The amount of crying that goes on in this thread is staggering to say the least, yes protoss has issues, issues that wont be fixed before an expansion or two, Just like how zerg still has issues. Even so, protosses can take games of terran and zergs regardless of what level of skill they are at. NexGenius is a prime example on the state of protoss as a whole. Right up there with the other races, even when half their units never see play more than once or twice a year. If you are this unsatisfied with the reliance on robo play maybe play a different race while you wait for buffs?
I was being ironic about how ppl never shouted l2p to zergs before the patch... because i think zerg really needs those buffs.
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On November 09 2010 02:36 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 00:40 GoldenH wrote:On November 08 2010 18:43 bokeevboke wrote:
I will be happy if they nerf psi-storms. Psi-storms are creating an illusion of PvT being balanced. After its nerf all problems of the matchup will be revealed.
Like total crapness of gateway units, forced robo tech, immobility, lack of harass options, EMPs. Yup, nerf Colossi too, when protoss doesn't have our 1 good build anymore, then we will lose every game and blizz will have to make changes. Dunno if you meant that seriously, but the excessive power of ranged colossi forces Vikings to have 9 range (which ruins slow air units against Terran in all matchups) and probably forces other Protoss units to be weak. (I might also blame Marauders' 20 vs. armored damage on them, because Vikings and Marauders are the forced Terran response.) I would switch Extended Thermal Lances to the Immortal and give Colossus 7 base range. A slow, bulky, short-ranged unit that only hits ground is pretty stupid. At the same time, a 9-range high-damage splash unit that can walk over other units and climb up-and-down cliffs? There's a reason PvP devolves into Colossus vs. Colossus.
Thats becouse you dont have hard counter unit for colossus as protoss
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On November 09 2010 04:35 Darksoldierr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 02:36 Severedevil wrote:On November 09 2010 00:40 GoldenH wrote:On November 08 2010 18:43 bokeevboke wrote:
I will be happy if they nerf psi-storms. Psi-storms are creating an illusion of PvT being balanced. After its nerf all problems of the matchup will be revealed.
Like total crapness of gateway units, forced robo tech, immobility, lack of harass options, EMPs. Yup, nerf Colossi too, when protoss doesn't have our 1 good build anymore, then we will lose every game and blizz will have to make changes. Dunno if you meant that seriously, but the excessive power of ranged colossi forces Vikings to have 9 range (which ruins slow air units against Terran in all matchups) and probably forces other Protoss units to be weak. (I might also blame Marauders' 20 vs. armored damage on them, because Vikings and Marauders are the forced Terran response.) I would switch Extended Thermal Lances to the Immortal and give Colossus 7 base range. A slow, bulky, short-ranged unit that only hits ground is pretty stupid. At the same time, a 9-range high-damage splash unit that can walk over other units and climb up-and-down cliffs? There's a reason PvP devolves into Colossus vs. Colossus. Thats becouse you dont have hard counter unit for colossus as protoss
I don't believe Terran should have hard counters for Colossus either. I don't think Colossus should be so powerful that they need hard counters.
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Tester was considered the best player in the world for much of the beta, then suddenly became terrible, just coincidentally at the same time as every other toss player in the world suddenly became awful players which just SOMEHOW RANDOMLY coincided with toss nerfs and zerg buffs.
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On November 09 2010 03:32 Nazarid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 22:33 Madkipz wrote:On November 08 2010 18:46 Hellye wrote:On November 08 2010 18:33 Jayson X wrote:People people! Common with the constant whining! What is this? On November 08 2010 16:25 andrewwiggin wrote:
Terran cried about roaches, and zerg roaches got nerfed in beta.
Zerg cried about being crap, and got buffed after beta.
Protoss cry about REAL ISSUES i.e. early units getting kited, least cost effective units of the game (cost-effective in an isolated UNIT TESTER maybe..) .. and what happens?
David Kim starts thinking about how to nerf Psi storm.
-_____- So this is how balance is approached now? "He got something and he got something, I want it too!!". This is exactly what I was worried before SC2 came out. This constant stream of venting without any proper suggestion but "make this or that stronger because I just got overrun by it". Meanwhile players like HuK and Socke maintain some of the highest win-percentages in the world. You can't just go on a rant and completely ignore how fragile balance is! Balance isn't about making it easier for you every time any time. And it certainly isn't about giving you a chance to stop strategies that perfectly hard counter yours. This is exactly why Blizzard is waiting and why it's necessary to let things roll by itself for a while. Timings have to evolve. Your job is to play the game and put your braincells to work. Which quite honestly I think some of you just refuse to do. And that is a shame because you miss out on evolving as a player... So the old L2p argument huh? I would love if these were thrown right before roach range when fruitdealer won the GSL... no roach range would have been so awesome ( they didnt need it, they just had to learn how to play without it off course ). Just because Huk gets some wins the game is fine??.... LOL... how about in korea where there are real terran pros who are agressive early enough to take most win percentages against protoss? This isnt just 1 player who noticed. There is a growing aware that something is wrong with the race. fruitdealer played terrans almost exclusively and you cry about zvp balance in relation to gsl before the patch? wtf? The amount of crying that goes on in this thread is staggering to say the least, yes protoss has issues, issues that wont be fixed before an expansion or two, Just like how zerg still has issues. Even so, protosses can take games of terran and zergs regardless of what level of skill they are at. NexGenius is a prime example on the state of protoss as a whole. Right up there with the other races, even when half their units never see play more than once or twice a year. If you are this unsatisfied with the reliance on robo play maybe play a different race while you wait for buffs? your right they can, this is due to late game collosi + HT being 100% unstoppable by the terran... gah maybe if you played in some high quality matches you might understand, just watching a highly skilled player doesn't give you first hand knowledge of how the game works. as it stands protoss have a slightly weak early game, but is made up for by their incredible ability to completly STOP all early aggression from an opponent by literally pressing F and selecting a location to drop a Force Field(rush stopped thank you for coming).. man i know that's pretty crazy in its awesomeness right?, mid game..well you have either collosi or working to templar or going phoenix with ground forces... all units that can defend very well..late game, this is where protoss becomes god... once youve reached late game and control 3 or more bases, you tech is full laid out, and you can now get Both Collosi(with range) and high templar with storm.. no what counters HT and Collosi together?, ghosts emp the templar right, well damn, that's 6 marauders i could have built instead, so now i have an army prolly 10-15+ Maraduers short cus i have a few ghosts =(... Even if i hit an EMP on every templar(thats most likely spread out to the point youll never get them all) it doesnt mean im going to win, now the collosi with range and their zealot wall and eating my entire army. and if i didnt get the Best emps you have ever seen in a game, then well my army is not only getting lazered up by the collosi it is get Stormed which forces my army to move WHILE the collosi are smashing my brains in.. awsome and then you storm agian and agian.. army is dead 100% win rate man amazing... fighting a zerg is prolly a little harder late game but still just as easy...you drop gateways get templar and collosi, and get enough sentries to keep the zerg from ever getting a surround on your army, and youve won the game agian with HT/Collosi..(roaches are not enough of a counter..ultras are their only hope vs protoss) same issue with the zerg as Terran have, if i counter the collosi by building alot of roaches you just mix in a couple immortals 1-3 and you own me, if i counter the HT by getting infestors, you just feed back them before i can fungal growth your HT...so my only options is to tech switch from a mass of mutalisks ive been using to harass you into a huge mass of roach/ultra to even stand a chance and you ask yourself why protoss needs a buff? and if they get a buff what is blizzard going to do about the strength of both HT and Collosi working together withen the late game?
YEAH DUDE CRAZY THOSE RETARD TOSS PROS DONT KNOW HOW TO PLAY TOSS UNLIKE YOU, YOURE RIGHT JUST MASS SENTRY-COLLOSUS-HT BARELY COSTS ANY GAS RIGHT GUYS!? Also what you say is clearly true because toss tears up all the big tournys and the ladder, well theres you offraceing as toss with your mad phoenix collosi dT HT Carrier sentry archon voidray strat.
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because good players dont play protoss, they play terran and zerg
it was like this in sc1 aswell there were a few hero toss's (bisu, stork, reach) and everyone else who was good played terran or zerg
pretty simple really
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Well if apparently all Protoss players suck, might that coincidence with the fact that the " real good" players don't play Protoss because it's bad?
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EPT
