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On November 08 2010 17:35 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 17:12 5unrise wrote:On November 08 2010 17:09 Cloak wrote:
It was stated earlier in the thread that some A-teamers from SC1 went to Protoss while some B-teamers went to Terran and of course the Terran B-teamers are wildly more successful because they're just that more skilled. When Bisu started sc1 he played terran, look at how successful he is after switching to protoss. Mere coincidence? Maybe some players are just better at playing terran than toss? It's just to refute the idea there's no skilled players trying to rep Protoss. It's quite a coincidence that we have all these rising star Terrans and Zergs while everyone is trying to ignore Protoss. Zerg won the GSL and still got buffs. It's unfair for people to ask to wait until the metagame shifts in Protoss favor when Zerg and Terran have been getting their handouts at breakneck speeds.
The last patch came before GSL season 1 was over so that is a poor argument.
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also i want to point out, that is not only a problem of imbalanced in tvp, but from a spectator pov, it's look very boring...static gameplay(mines, siege, positioning of the army...)from bw was a lot better imo...
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On November 08 2010 18:03 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 17:35 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2010 17:12 5unrise wrote:On November 08 2010 17:09 Cloak wrote:
It was stated earlier in the thread that some A-teamers from SC1 went to Protoss while some B-teamers went to Terran and of course the Terran B-teamers are wildly more successful because they're just that more skilled. When Bisu started sc1 he played terran, look at how successful he is after switching to protoss. Mere coincidence? Maybe some players are just better at playing terran than toss? It's just to refute the idea there's no skilled players trying to rep Protoss. It's quite a coincidence that we have all these rising star Terrans and Zergs while everyone is trying to ignore Protoss. Zerg won the GSL and still got buffs. It's unfair for people to ask to wait until the metagame shifts in Protoss favor when Zerg and Terran have been getting their handouts at breakneck speeds. The last patch came before GSL season 1 was over so that is a poor argument.
Patch 1.1.2 came out on Oct 14th. GSL Season 1 finished Oct 2nd.
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People people! Common with the constant whining! What is this?
On November 08 2010 16:25 andrewwiggin wrote:
Terran cried about roaches, and zerg roaches got nerfed in beta.
Zerg cried about being crap, and got buffed after beta.
Protoss cry about REAL ISSUES i.e. early units getting kited, least cost effective units of the game (cost-effective in an isolated UNIT TESTER maybe..) .. and what happens?
David Kim starts thinking about how to nerf Psi storm.
-_____-
So this is how balance is approached now? "He got something and he got something, I want it too!!". This is exactly what I was worried before SC2 came out. This constant stream of venting without any proper suggestion but "make this or that stronger because I just got overrun by it". Meanwhile players like HuK and Socke maintain some of the highest win-percentages in the world. You can't just go on a rant and completely ignore how fragile balance is! Balance isn't about making it easier for you every time any time. And it certainly isn't about giving you a chance to stop strategies that perfectly hard counter yours.
This is exactly why Blizzard is waiting and why it's necessary to let things roll by itself for a while. Timings have to evolve. Your job is to play the game and put your braincells to work. Which quite honestly I think some of you just refuse to do. And that is a shame because you miss out on evolving as a player...
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I will be happy if they nerf psi-storms. Psi-storms are creating an illusion of PvT being balanced. After its nerf all problems of the matchup will be revealed.
Like total crapness of gateway units, forced robo tech, immobility, lack of harass options, EMPs.
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On November 08 2010 18:43 bokeevboke wrote:
I will be happy if they nerf psi-storms. Psi-storms are creating an illusion of PvT being balanced. After its nerf all problems of the matchup will be revealed.
Like total crapness of gateway units, forced robo tech, immobility, lack of harass options, EMPs.
righ there with you man...
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On November 08 2010 18:33 Jayson X wrote:People people! Common with the constant whining! What is this? Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 16:25 andrewwiggin wrote:
Terran cried about roaches, and zerg roaches got nerfed in beta.
Zerg cried about being crap, and got buffed after beta.
Protoss cry about REAL ISSUES i.e. early units getting kited, least cost effective units of the game (cost-effective in an isolated UNIT TESTER maybe..) .. and what happens?
David Kim starts thinking about how to nerf Psi storm.
-_____- So this is how balance is approached now? "He got something and he got something, I want it too!!". This is exactly what I was worried before SC2 came out. This constant stream of venting without any proper suggestion but "make this or that stronger because I just got overrun by it". Meanwhile players like HuK and Socke maintain some of the highest win-percentages in the world. You can't just go on a rant and completely ignore how fragile balance is! Balance isn't about making it easier for you every time any time. And it certainly isn't about giving you a chance to stop strategies that perfectly hard counter yours. This is exactly why Blizzard is waiting and why it's necessary to let things roll by itself for a while. Timings have to evolve. Your job is to play the game and put your braincells to work. Which quite honestly I think some of you just refuse to do. And that is a shame because you miss out on evolving as a player...
So the old L2p argument huh?
I would love if these were thrown right before roach range when fruitdealer won the GSL... no roach range would have been so awesome ( they didnt need it, they just had to learn how to play without it off course ).
Just because Huk gets some wins the game is fine??.... LOL... how about in korea where there are real terran pros who are agressive early enough to take most win percentages against protoss? This isnt just 1 player who noticed. There is a growing aware that something is wrong with the race.
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On November 08 2010 17:09 Cloak wrote:
It was stated earlier in the thread that some A-teamers from SC1 went to Protoss while some B-teamers went to Terran and of course the Terran B-teamers are wildly more successful because they're just that more skilled.
Nice burn 
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On November 08 2010 18:43 bokeevboke wrote:
I will be happy if they nerf psi-storms. Psi-storms are creating an illusion of PvT being balanced. After its nerf all problems of the matchup will be revealed.
Like total crapness of gateway units, forced robo tech, immobility, lack of harass options, EMPs.
I agree with this one Nerf it tomorrow
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Yep just keep nerfing P until we don't win anything at all, seems logical. Eventually they'll wake up.
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On November 08 2010 18:46 Hellye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 18:33 Jayson X wrote:People people! Common with the constant whining! What is this? On November 08 2010 16:25 andrewwiggin wrote:
Terran cried about roaches, and zerg roaches got nerfed in beta.
Zerg cried about being crap, and got buffed after beta.
Protoss cry about REAL ISSUES i.e. early units getting kited, least cost effective units of the game (cost-effective in an isolated UNIT TESTER maybe..) .. and what happens?
David Kim starts thinking about how to nerf Psi storm.
-_____- So this is how balance is approached now? "He got something and he got something, I want it too!!". This is exactly what I was worried before SC2 came out. This constant stream of venting without any proper suggestion but "make this or that stronger because I just got overrun by it". Meanwhile players like HuK and Socke maintain some of the highest win-percentages in the world. You can't just go on a rant and completely ignore how fragile balance is! Balance isn't about making it easier for you every time any time. And it certainly isn't about giving you a chance to stop strategies that perfectly hard counter yours. This is exactly why Blizzard is waiting and why it's necessary to let things roll by itself for a while. Timings have to evolve. Your job is to play the game and put your braincells to work. Which quite honestly I think some of you just refuse to do. And that is a shame because you miss out on evolving as a player... So the old L2p argument huh? I would love if these were thrown right before roach range when fruitdealer won the GSL... no roach range would have been so awesome ( they didnt need it, they just had to learn how to play without it off course ). Just because Huk gets some wins the game is fine??.... LOL... how about in korea where there are real terran pros who are agressive early enough to take most win percentages against protoss? This isnt just 1 player who noticed. There is a growing aware that something is wrong with the race.
fruitdealer played terrans almost exclusively and you cry about zvp balance in relation to gsl before the patch? wtf?
The amount of crying that goes on in this thread is staggering to say the least, yes protoss has issues, issues that wont be fixed before an expansion or two, Just like how zerg still has issues.
Even so, protosses can take games of terran and zergs regardless of what level of skill they are at. NexGenius is a prime example on the state of protoss as a whole. Right up there with the other races, even when half their units never see play more than once or twice a year. If you are this unsatisfied with the reliance on robo play maybe play a different race while you wait for buffs?
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While I do believe Protoss need some other options like stronger harass early and mid game (lost the reaver, dark templar tech slowed down, etc.) and need some help early game vs Terran (and maybe ling/roach... not sure), I absolutely do not think zealots + stalkers should be an end all solution. Units like Sentries, High Templar, and even the colossus are critical to the thing that makes Protoss different and fun. While I think it's about time Protoss started to whine, it's not like Protoss are doing horrible everywhere. If you play opponents who do not slow down the Protoss with split medivac drops, muta harass,aggressive bio early, aggressive roach vs a FE, etc. then you can see Protoss perform just fine late game.
I will also say this. Play another race on ladder. It will alleviate some frustration and give you better perspective on the matchups. I play Terran and Protoss, and when I'm sick of defending as Protoss (it just so happens games that night never get to late game, etc.), I switch over to Terran and harass like a madman, concussive rush, banshee harass, tank push, or whatever.
For those saying that Protoss just need a tiny boost in order to have more options... I'm not so sure about that. That is unless you mean really late game options, then OK. But in 90% of games Protoss have to take a big risk to do anything "fancy". And this is mostly because of the things I'm defending... AOE and forcefields. Their regular units alone aren't great, and they need lots of tech to do fancy stuff. The one place they have a chance early and midgame is with the sentry. But after the sentry damage nerf, I haven't seen anybody try in a tournament. So the only ways I see of fixing this are giving better scouting options, allowing charge or blink to come much earlier, making sentries better again, or something along those lines.
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On November 08 2010 18:43 bokeevboke wrote:
I will be happy if they nerf psi-storms. Psi-storms are creating an illusion of PvT being balanced. After its nerf all problems of the matchup will be revealed.
Like total crapness of gateway units, forced robo tech, immobility, lack of harass options, EMPs.
Yup, nerf Colossi too, when protoss doesn't have our 1 good build anymore, then we will lose every game and blizz will have to make changes.
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It's hard to say how balance will be fixed since it is so fragile. It seems like T has a much easier time vs P, and ZvT is beginning to favor Z but that might change soon.
However, imo zvp is either balanced or slightly in P's favor, so it would be hard to fix pvt whilst not affecting pvz too much. I think a slight marauder nerf and storm buff would help a lot in pvt, especially since marauders aren't too important in zvt,
But I think good FF play is indispensable and actually gamebraking. However, it is somewhat situational based on the map.
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Isn't psi-storm nerfed enough? The damage and radius has already been lowered. What are they possibly thinking now? Lowering damage even more or making the use more energy? >.>
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Heh, yeah, I lost a game yesterday where I had 50% more army and money, but because he had 8 collosus and I had 20 high templar, it didn't matter. I used to play BGH as toss and kill EVERYTHING with psi storm. Now, its like a support spell at best.
So yeah, nerf psi storm more!
Here is the thing with the sentry. Imagine if instead of marine & marauder having stim, it was on a slow, weak support unit. You did not even need a spell to stop it, it has to be near the front. You just make sure its the first unit that you snipe.
Protoss army is balanced around good forcefields / guardian shield to be EVEN. No matter how much you lose to a good forcefield you should watch the replay and go "hey, he really spent a lot of money on that army that slowed his tech and economy". So if we choose not to make that many sentries, we are at a disadvantage. Also if you are ready for it, and have equal micro, you can dodge the forcefields, run away, and 10 seconds later its like we didn't make any sentries.
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On November 09 2010 00:50 ThE_ShiZ wrote:
It's hard to say how balance will be fixed since it is so fragile. It seems like T has a much easier time vs P, and ZvT is beginning to favor Z but that might change soon.
However, imo zvp is either balanced or slightly in P's favor, so it would be hard to fix pvt whilst not affecting pvz too much. I think a slight marauder nerf and storm buff would help a lot in pvt, especially since marauders aren't too important in zvt,
But I think good FF play is indispensable and actually gamebraking. However, it is somewhat situational based on the map.
Funnily enough, according to the recent Global Diamond W/Ls and the GSL W/Ls, PvZ is more imba against P than PvT is.
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On November 09 2010 00:07 Blacklizard wrote:
While I do believe Protoss need some other options like stronger harass early and mid game (lost the reaver, dark templar tech slowed down, etc.) and need some help early game vs Terran (and maybe ling/roach... not sure), I absolutely do not think zealots + stalkers should be an end all solution. Units like Sentries, High Templar, and even the colossus are critical to the thing that makes Protoss different and fun. While I think it's about time Protoss started to whine, it's not like Protoss are doing horrible everywhere. If you play opponents who do not slow down the Protoss with split medivac drops, muta harass,aggressive bio early, aggressive roach vs a FE, etc. then you can see Protoss perform just fine late game.
I will also say this. Play another race on ladder. It will alleviate some frustration and give you better perspective on the matchups. I play Terran and Protoss, and when I'm sick of defending as Protoss (it just so happens games that night never get to late game, etc.), I switch over to Terran and harass like a madman, concussive rush, banshee harass, tank push, or whatever.
For those saying that Protoss just need a tiny boost in order to have more options... I'm not so sure about that. That is unless you mean really late game options, then OK. But in 90% of games Protoss have to take a big risk to do anything "fancy". And this is mostly because of the things I'm defending... AOE and forcefields. Their regular units alone aren't great, and they need lots of tech to do fancy stuff. The one place they have a chance early and midgame is with the sentry. But after the sentry damage nerf, I haven't seen anybody try in a tournament. So the only ways I see of fixing this are giving better scouting options, allowing charge or blink to come much earlier, making sentries better again, or something along those lines.
earlier and less expensive charge perhaps..but seeing as Blizz nerfed lots in the first place I really don't see this happening. Either that make concussive require factory maybe?
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4 worthless and expensive units don't help
VR
DT
Carrier
MS
Weak air does not help
Slow.
Zealot/Stalker/Colossus ball is the thing other races have to worry about. Boring. And as long as you get to them first or get into late game it's over.
Blizzard needs to bring back MS warp to nexus maybe with a huge cool down.
Needs to up lvl 2 damage on VR again.
Needs DTs to cost less.
Needs Carriers to cost less.
Then you'll see some exciting protoss play.
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Funnily enough, according to the recent Global Diamond W/Ls and the GSL W/Ls, PvZ is more imba against P than PvT is.
Yeah but, Diamond is soo wide of a skill range that it's hard to judge. Also, GSL Zergs were rolling through but once it got to the later stages of the tourney they dropped like flies, and you got to take into account that the zergs got lucky with 1a Roach all-ins. It's fairly new in zvp because of the roach buff, but once it's played enough it won't be too strong.
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EPT
