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On November 03 2010 04:52 NewteN wrote:
They keep nerfing stuff because donkeys can't handle scouting/adapting to a 2gate, scouting/adapting to VRs and moving their shit out of a storm. I swear to fuck if they nerf storm...
Although it's hilarious, it's true at the same time. :[
I'm gonna be so sad if p is nerfed again.
Btw, we gotta whine more just like zerg in order to get a good patch for us. LOL.
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The problem of protoss: easiest race to play, but once all races are mastered, the worst race overall. Much like BW really. It's impossible to balance a race like this if blizzard is going to try and balance the game through all leagues. When I say easiest race to play...I mean it's the easiest race for some random noob to pick up the game and start laddering and hitting diamond fairly quickly.
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On November 03 2010 05:00 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 04:59 summerloud wrote:On November 03 2010 04:11 ensis wrote:im all for re-adding lurkers, medics, firebats, defilers, corsairs, even reavers - its hard to improve on unit designs that good and you say, my ideas are horrible? btw, the protoss still has sentries and immortals as its backbone. so what except for adding old and outdated units would you suggest? wtf is wrong with you? you seriously searched my old posts for something you could take out of context to make me look stupid? and then you go on to call immortals and sentries backbone units. obviously you have no understanding at all about how this game works yeah, you have. why cant immortals be backbone units? one reason
1) they are tier 2
2) they cost 100 gas each and 4 supply
3) they cant shoot air
seriously why do i even bother arguing with you...
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Cause they take too long to make. If someone counters you and you don't have a bunch of warpgates or stargates and your immortals are dead. What are you going to do? Immortals are countered by backbone units like zealots, zerglings, and marines.
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On November 03 2010 05:01 slimshady wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 04:52 NewteN wrote:
They keep nerfing stuff because donkeys can't handle scouting/adapting to a 2gate, scouting/adapting to VRs and moving their shit out of a storm. I swear to fuck if they nerf storm... Although it's hilarious, it's true at the same time. :[ I'm gonna be so sad if p is nerfed again. Btw, we gotta whine more just like zerg in order to get a good patch for us. LOL.
Everyone! to the -2.0 Bnet forums. LOL.
But seriously, they keep nerfing the stuff that is not difficult for T and Z to stop and then buff or ignore the things Toss has trouble with at high levels. That really just bothers me =/
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I think the stalker has a lot to answer for. It is such a crap unit. It is so poorly designed.
It has mobility, versatility, high HP, zero dps and costs a ton (comparitively). None of these blend well together.
Shouldn't mobile units have high dps and low HP? Then their mobility would be important instead of merely nice.
Shouldn't versatile units be cheap? Something to bulk out an army cheapy as it does so-so versus everything. You can then toss in specialists into your mix to deal with whatever is the big threat. For example see the terran marine.
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Hey wait a second here... I mean, haven't we learned anything yet? Are parts of this community such slow learners?
People were crying about Z being worthless and Fruitdealer wins the GSL.
Patch comes and people state that T is totally worthless. Now in GSL2 its 3 terrans and 1 Z left?
Well, I'm not surprised a thread like this was created. But lets just take it easy. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if GSL3 with the current state of the game had 4 P:s in the semi finals. So lets just agree to the following obvious statement:
None of us in here knows anything about the balance of the game and the state of the game. What needs fixing is the broken parts of the game. The fine tuning of units still has to be done when Blizzard knows what those detail issues are.
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On November 03 2010 04:10 itsed wrote:
Protoss lacks a lot of diversity in early build orders and their end game is garbage.
Carriers and motherships are jokes. Archons are very situational and are used as a last ditch when you run out of energy in a battle.
They still have the tools and assets to win, but with fewer diverging options.
I'm sorry protoss endgame is leaps ahead of the other races (although zerg end game is also very good). A 200/200 deathball of colossi + chargelots + stalkers + carpet storms is near unstopable. Couple this with the fact that you can instantly summon units using warpgates to replenish armies whereas terran has to wait a production cycle and protoss is very scary in the late game.
edit: I do agree however that the mothership cud do with a buff, altho i think carriers cannot really be buffed without making them seriously op - perhaps make interceptors more durable so marines don't own them? dunno
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On November 03 2010 05:03 summerloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 05:00 ensis wrote:On November 03 2010 04:59 summerloud wrote:On November 03 2010 04:11 ensis wrote:im all for re-adding lurkers, medics, firebats, defilers, corsairs, even reavers - its hard to improve on unit designs that good and you say, my ideas are horrible? btw, the protoss still has sentries and immortals as its backbone. so what except for adding old and outdated units would you suggest? wtf is wrong with you? you seriously searched my old posts for something you could take out of context to make me look stupid? and then you go on to call immortals and sentries backbone units. obviously you have no understanding at all about how this game works yeah, you have. why cant immortals be backbone units? one reason 1) they are tier 2 2) they cost 100 gas each and 4 supply 3) they cant shoot air seriously why do i even bother arguing with you...
thats what i should be asking -.-
great argument, they are t2.... like hydras..... or tanks...... or hellions...... or speedroaches.... or a lot of shit.
wow 2 stalkers cost 100 gas and 4 supply. the same argument would be, zealots cannot be a backbone, because zerglings only cost 25 and zealots cost 100 -.-
yeah marauders cannot be a backbone, because they cant shoot air, or roaches.... OR A LOT OF OTHER SHIT!
your arguments are just plain dumb.
also, zerg in sc2 had only lings till lurkers or mutas were out. so why cant zealots be the backbone till immortals/collossi or something else is out?
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On November 03 2010 05:27 PimpMobeel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 04:10 itsed wrote:
Protoss lacks a lot of diversity in early build orders and their end game is garbage.
Carriers and motherships are jokes. Archons are very situational and are used as a last ditch when you run out of energy in a battle.
They still have the tools and assets to win, but with fewer diverging options. I'm sorry protoss endgame is leaps ahead of the other races (although zerg end game is also very good). A 200/200 deathball of colossi + chargelots + stalkers + carpet storms is near unstopable. Couple this with the fact that you can instantly summon units using warpgates to replenish armies whereas terran has to wait a production cycle and protoss is very scary in the late game.
Kinda odd thats its almost impossible for toss to get to the endgame then? Ohh wait, other races know this to 
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On November 03 2010 05:23 SyyRaaaN wrote:
Hey wait a second here... I mean, haven't we learned anything yet? Are parts of this community such slow learners?
People were crying about Z being worthless and Fruitdealer wins the GSL.
Patch comes and people state that T is totally worthless. Now in GSL2 its 3 terrans and 1 Z left?
Well, I'm not surprised a thread like this was created. But lets just take it easy. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if GSL3 with the current state of the game had 4 P:s in the semi finals. So lets just agree to the following obvious statement:
None of us in here knows anything about the balance of the game and the state of the game. What needs fixing is the broken parts of the game. The fine tuning of units still has to be done when Blizzard knows what those detail issues are.
so good that someone actually trys to calm ppl down here. the thread is full of biased and uniformed bullshit which makes it a typical balance thread you can find on X forum that is about Y game.
even what professional gamers state about balance is often, letz say 50% of the time, biased and vague. well, some balance discussions lead to intense theory crafting which can bring up good ideas but those often get drowned in nerd tears.
even those statements from blizzard about the TvP matchup are not explored enough. If they were, then they would have patched the game allready. but there are so many things that need to be found out about this matchup because there are way too many assumptions in this MU so far.
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On November 03 2010 05:31 Ekko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 05:27 PimpMobeel wrote:On November 03 2010 04:10 itsed wrote:
Protoss lacks a lot of diversity in early build orders and their end game is garbage.
Carriers and motherships are jokes. Archons are very situational and are used as a last ditch when you run out of energy in a battle.
They still have the tools and assets to win, but with fewer diverging options. I'm sorry protoss endgame is leaps ahead of the other races (although zerg end game is also very good). A 200/200 deathball of colossi + chargelots + stalkers + carpet storms is near unstopable. Couple this with the fact that you can instantly summon units using warpgates to replenish armies whereas terran has to wait a production cycle and protoss is very scary in the late game. Kinda odd thats its almost impossible for toss to get to the endgame then? Ohh wait, other races know this to
I didn't argue otherwise
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On November 03 2010 05:12 Gecko wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 05:01 slimshady wrote:On November 03 2010 04:52 NewteN wrote:
They keep nerfing stuff because donkeys can't handle scouting/adapting to a 2gate, scouting/adapting to VRs and moving their shit out of a storm. I swear to fuck if they nerf storm... Although it's hilarious, it's true at the same time. :[ I'm gonna be so sad if p is nerfed again. Btw, we gotta whine more just like zerg in order to get a good patch for us. LOL. Everyone! to the -2.0 Bnet forums. LOL. But seriously, they keep nerfing the stuff that is not difficult for T and Z to stop and then buff or ignore the things Toss has trouble with at high levels. That really just bothers me =/
Seriously? There were certain impossible to stop void ray timing pushes. Even if you blindly prepared for them, void ray got nerfed. 2/4 gate is one of the easiest things to do to get you in diamond. Learn other builds.. By the way, they are going to nerf storm.
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Protoss is a simple race with little diversity in build orders. The thing about Protoss is they lack unit diversity as well.
Lets be honest here and take a look at some examples.
Protoss is pretty much forced to play ground units only cause their air units suck. When was the last time we saw Carriers, Phoenix or Void Rays in a top ranked tournament? Never. If your opponent needs anti-air (or to attack units such as colossus) they can make a designated anti-air unit. Terran builds Vikings and Zerg makes Corruptors/Mutalisks. What can Protoss make that can be equally as effective? Nothing. We are forced to alter the ground army once again in order to match the opponents anti-air.
Gateways and units. Well what can be said here. All opponents pretty much know what your gonna build. They counter all your units accordingly and if you get Colossus they will get Vikings/Corrupters. GG. There isn't really anything you can do about it. What you gonna do? SHIT!
Even though I am a 2000 number 1 diamond player I find it really hard to defeat Terran and Zerg opponents who are not retarded. They are doing nothing special just playing simple build orders like MMM+V or MMM+G. Shit don't even get me started on Ghosts against Protoss. One button and all your energy and 100 shields (which is shields gone from all Gateway units) gone. GG. One button. Shields have been worthless since SC1 and ironically cost the most to upgrade as well lol. Like anyone upgrades shields...ZzZzZz.
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On November 03 2010 05:35 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 05:23 SyyRaaaN wrote:
Hey wait a second here... I mean, haven't we learned anything yet? Are parts of this community such slow learners?
People were crying about Z being worthless and Fruitdealer wins the GSL.
Patch comes and people state that T is totally worthless. Now in GSL2 its 3 terrans and 1 Z left?
Well, I'm not surprised a thread like this was created. But lets just take it easy. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if GSL3 with the current state of the game had 4 P:s in the semi finals. So lets just agree to the following obvious statement:
None of us in here knows anything about the balance of the game and the state of the game. What needs fixing is the broken parts of the game. The fine tuning of units still has to be done when Blizzard knows what those detail issues are. so good that someone actually trys to calm ppl down here. the thread is full of biased and uniformed bullshit which makes it a typical balance thread you can find on X forum that is about Y game. even what professional gamers state about balance is often, letz say 50% of the time, biased and vague. well, some balance discussions lead to intense theory crafting which can bring up good ideas but those often get drowned in nerd tears. even those statements from blizzard about the TvP matchup are not explored enough. If they were, then they would have patched the game allready. but there are so many things that need to be found out about this matchup because there are way too many assumptions in this MU so far.
well, tvz has gone through a lot of changes all the time.
protoss matchups, especially pvt is the same thing since early beta only without voidrays and zealots.
imo fuck waiting for the metagame. really screw it. i dont want to go for collossi in every 3 matchups. i want to go for air harrass. i want to make zealot pushes or something like that. its getting boring.
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On November 03 2010 05:03 summerloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 05:00 ensis wrote:On November 03 2010 04:59 summerloud wrote:On November 03 2010 04:11 ensis wrote:im all for re-adding lurkers, medics, firebats, defilers, corsairs, even reavers - its hard to improve on unit designs that good and you say, my ideas are horrible? btw, the protoss still has sentries and immortals as its backbone. so what except for adding old and outdated units would you suggest? wtf is wrong with you? you seriously searched my old posts for something you could take out of context to make me look stupid? and then you go on to call immortals and sentries backbone units. obviously you have no understanding at all about how this game works yeah, you have. why cant immortals be backbone units? one reason 1) they are tier 2 2) they cost 100 gas each and 4 supply 3) they cant shoot air seriously why do i even bother arguing with you...
2 Stalkers cost 100 gas each and 4 supply. Roaches are a backbone unit but they can't shoot air. Immortals in a straight up fight are better against all armoured units and roughly equal vs light units, unless hardened shields comes into play and they are better. The cost of robotics is pretty important, as is the fact that colossus are also really important units, but most peoples argument why the immortal is bad is "it can't do *insert stalker strengths here" and then they complain marauders are imba because they kill stalkers and stalkers cost more. Sure they're not better in every way, otherwise why would you have a stalker unit in the game? The point is immortals are your heavy duty ranged anti ground. If you see 5 rax with tech lab its not like anti air is a huge concern. I think the deeper problem is colossus have become so essential in PvT and PvZ that you can't afford the robotics time and they also require anti air defense where suddenly stalkers become more useful.
Basically colosuss and immortals don't synergize at all. Immortal/HT+some gateway combos are deadly against T and Z though. Roaches/ultras are the only units that are good vs storm and immortals rip both of those to pieces.
That requires ridiculous tech time/cost though. This is probably what BLizz was talking about lategame PvT. Obviously Zerg's lategame can balance out the P lategame because of hive tech. (I guess larvae saving, but thats mostly because zerg outmacro their opponents but they lose their army and have to rebuild it again to actually win the game, thats mostly because Z's 200 army is so bad with 2 supply roaches/hydras and I don't think its that important because you need to sit at 200/200 and keep mining and the P obviously is not maxed if he's not attacking you before that happens.
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One button and all your energy and 100 shields (which is shields gone from all Gateway units) gone. GG. One button. Shields have been worthless since SC1 and ironically cost the most to upgrade as well lol. Like anyone upgrades shields...ZzZzZz.
You really shouldn't be worrying about ghosts. If you lose to them in the early game/mid game it's because it's your own fault for heaving the wrong unit composition to deal with them, dont spread your units well. If he has ghosts early on it means he will have less medivacs/vikings. So adjusts your unit composition accordingly. Late game you have storm + HT's. Wich with amulet makes the matchup rediculous late game. There are no good timings to atack anymore because of the way warpgates and amulet HT's work. I always like how protoss player clump up all their HT's and then cry. Difference between EMP and Storm. 4 storms and the MMM ball is dead. 4 EMP's and the protoss army lost all their shields.
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Tbh the core problem hasn't been stressed enough - blizz took away units that scale well with skill, meaning, that they "have" to be overall meh otherwise noobs would own everybody
Protoss desperately NEEDS units like the reaver or the arbiter. Units that can't be (ab-)used by every random noob but become godlike in the hands of pro-gamers. The colossus will really turn out to be the doom of the protoss-race. Such a stupidly designed unit, even I can micro colossi like NEXGenius because there's "nothing" you "can" do with them micro-wise. Just produce them, position them correctly behind the force-fields, cross your fingers and hope for the best. Seriously, what was Blizz thinking when creating such a zero-skill no-brainer unit?
Obviously any buff would make colossi totally broken, not that anybody understands me wrong, I'm not voting on a colossus-buff lol.
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On November 03 2010 05:38 Warlion wrote:
Protoss is a simple race with little diversity in build orders. The thing about Protoss is they lack unit diversity as well.
Lets be honest here and take a look at some examples.
Protoss is pretty much forced to play ground units only cause their air units suck. When was the last time we saw Carriers, Phoenix or Void Rays in a top ranked tournament? Never. If your opponent needs anti-air (or to attack units such as colossus) they can make a designated anti-air unit. Terran builds Vikings and Zerg makes Corruptors/Mutalisks. What can Protoss make that can be equally as effective? Nothing. We are forced to alter the ground army once again in order to match the opponents anti-air.
Gateways and units. Well what can be said here. All opponents pretty much know what your gonna build. They counter all your units accordingly and if you get Colossus they will get Vikings/Corrupters. GG. There isn't really anything you can do about it. What you gonna do? SHIT!
Even though I am a 2000 number 1 diamond player I find it really hard to defeat Terran and Zerg opponents who are not retarded. They are doing nothing special just playing simple build orders like MMM+V or MMM+G. Shit don't even get me started on Ghosts against Protoss. One button and all your energy and 100 shields (which is shields gone from all Gateway units) gone. GG. One button. Shields have been worthless since SC1 and ironically cost the most to upgrade as well lol. Like anyone upgrades shields...ZzZzZz.
Pheonixes are used quite a bit in pvz and somewhat to in pvt. Void rays are used in pvt but just not very much and usually just as a gimmick/cheese/forcing anti air.
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EPT
