EPTCurrently, zealots are mediocre early game, terrible mid game, and great once you get charge.
[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 29
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
Currently, zealots are mediocre early game, terrible mid game, and great once you get charge. | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
edit- and it's pretty funny reading the terrans that are posting. its like zerg all over again. its SO easy on paper. too bad its just as hard to implement in game. i like the buff sentry damage idea, but who knows what effect that will have later in the game. | ||
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ensis
Germany340 Posts
On November 03 2010 02:31 Offhand wrote: Maybe I'm crazy but wouldn't un-nerfing the zealot build time fix a lot of early game problems? Currently, zealots are mediocre early game, terrible mid game, and great once you get charge. but those poor poor bronze players had ouchi problems with proxygateways. we had to do something! | ||
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Akash
Romania113 Posts
He's the Dreamer after all  that might solve our problems | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On November 02 2010 22:44 xephon wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2bk42.png) Protoss not doing well in this season ewwww...29.2% LMAO looks like Zerg is now the top dog compared to GSL 1 | ||
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Nazarid
United States445 Posts
On November 03 2010 02:31 Offhand wrote: Maybe I'm crazy but wouldn't un-nerfing the zealot build time fix a lot of early game problems? Currently, zealots are mediocre early game, terrible mid game, and great once you get charge. the entire reason they nrefed the build time was to give zerg and terran players the option of atleast defending a double gate proxy... without the nerf Scouted or not you would almost certinenly lose vs a double or trip gate proxy. i know for a fact because i played as terran before they nerfed it and ide say literally 80% of my games vs toss were proxy gate rushes .. well i learned to fight them off before the nerf just because ide blindly prepare for it with my 9 rax vs toss (pre patch) | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On November 03 2010 02:22 Nazarid wrote: QQ more? jk but seriously sounds like your haveing macro/map control issues, protoss can defend pretty much anything they want assuming the see it coming which is where map control comes in. As it sits Terran vs Toss <early game> the advantage goes to the Terran <mid-game> advantage goes to the Zerg<late game> Protoss become unstoppable..unless you make a huge mistake(like attacking out of position) Heh, even if I'm mad I try and find the reason why I lost by seeing what mistakes I made. That said I definitely don't feel outmacro'd at my level of play. Its just that protoss don't really have as many options as people like to think. And yeah a protoss can defend almost anything, at the cost of their entire economy and probably game  . Starcraft is not about defending, unless you already have half the map and you are defending, you are losing. Map control could be an issue, I could always more more obs I guess and spread them, but the problem is the map control taken away before I can get an ob's (kinda expensive if you can't use the robo for for immos or colos), especially against zerg. Am I just supposed to guess how many zerglings he has before I leave the base with my zealots? Or guess if he will go baneling or nydus if I wall? Seriously? It just feels like zerg has all the power in this matchup (probably just frustration, I'm sure I will figure something out). I also agree that Protoss is favored late game, but they are no where close to unstoppable. Late game is a factor of too many things like macro, unit composition, harassment to say that one race has a distinct advantage over the other. Maybe my problem is T and Z never let me have a late game.Happy Pwning Yall :D | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
On November 03 2010 02:55 Nazarid wrote: the entire reason they nrefed the build time was to give zerg and terran players the option of atleast defending a double gate proxy... without the nerf Scouted or not you would almost certinenly lose vs a double or trip gate proxy. i know for a fact because i played as terran before they nerfed it and ide say literally 80% of my games vs toss were proxy gate rushes .. well i learned to fight them off before the nerf just because ide blindly prepare for it with my 9 rax vs toss (pre patch) have you ever heard of well i dont know, a bunker? | ||
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On November 02 2010 04:45 WickedBit wrote: It sort of seems like because of forcefields, protoss early games is more fragile that it needs to be. There is this delicate situation in early game for protoss where good forcefields means transitioning to mid game and bad forcefields = rolled over by superior terran/zerg armies. Just too much is left to luck which means that protoss have lower chances of succeeding. Because of this also Blizz is afraid to make changes since buffing protoss ground army means that everyone would probably be 4 gated to oblivion. I think one of the possible solutions to this may be to make the forcefield a researchable spell for late game and just buff the ground units. This would make early game a lot more stable while providing for a nice tech path. I really disliked the hidden nerf they did to forcefields about halfway through the beta where there was a delay on the placement graphics. Poor Protoss.  I think forcefields are super fun early, but you need sacrificial scouting and split second reaction time to defend vs. deadly timing attacks. And with the sentry damage nerf the sentries are really not great after mana is gone. | ||
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MarkIV
12 Posts
But prior to the last few patches, protoss had options that forced the opponent to react. The most obvious example is the voidray. Even if he didn't make them, the threat kept terrans wary and constrained thier BO wins. A VR wasn't quite the same level of threat as a cloaked banshee but it kept them honest. With the zealot build time nerf and the roach buff, the zerg can now 15 Hatch with relatively low risk on most maps. So the patches downgraded some timings and threats the protoss had. Without a terrain advantage (choke) protoss gateway units lose pretty badly to thier cost in the other races lower tier units. The upper tier has an extra building or two (I'm looking at you templar archives) to get to the meaty units that can counter the other races lower tier, and its darn hard to switch once you get there. For the GSL in particular, the lack of early scouting prevented the protoss from making the right BO choices. So they went blind builds and luck was against them. Blizz has already mentioned they want to nerf HT due to the warp-in immediate storm dynamic with kydarin amulets at blizzcon. The ladder data analysis they released also indicates protoss was doing well at the lower levels, exceptionally well. I dont think it is likely we will see any commensurate protoss buffs given the large customer base blizz is balancing for. In fact, I predict some sort of colossi nerf in the patch after next. (Which I actually would welcome as a protoss player. I would like some interesting PvP. Maybe they switch the thermal lance range upgrade over to immortal?) I think the BW dynamic of severely underrepresented protoss presence at the top level will be tolerated by blizz again in SC2 as they strive to please the majority of thier fan base. As for me, I'll be a little sad that I dont get to watch any protoss make it to the top, but my mid diamond ass wont notice the difference too much. I'll go through a losing streak along with all the other protoss until the AMM evens out and i'm faced with window licking opponents who occasionally have 30 seconds of inaction as they try and pick thier noses mid match. I'll probably even be able to make a carrier or mothership against them. | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
my suggestion to improve the zlot without making it overpowered early game is to add an additional speed upgrade to the twilight council that improves their speed to higher levels than they now have when charge is researched, and have charge just give that ability (and maybe immunity from concussive grenade) so charge would be 100/100 but only give the charge ability and speed upgrade would be 100/100 and give faster walk speed than charge gives right now this way terran had to transition out of mmm eventually and get hellions to deal with zlots or force lower zlot numbers by going banshee another way to buff toss would be to make hallucination cheaper and/or lower its mana cost - since you can get it at core level, you could basically scout at core instead of waiting for robo and then decide IF you want to go robo at all | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On November 03 2010 02:58 Demarini wrote: have you ever heard of well i dont know, a bunker? Yea...in most cases a bunker will literally solve all your problems against proxy gateways. They're free too -.-; Honestly though Protoss is in a tough spot at the moment. The early-mid game is pretty weak due to gateway units being raped by the other races' early game units. However, once Protoss T3 and tech hits the field, the game is usually shifted pretty readily to Protoss favor as long as Protoss doesn't enter mid-late game too far behind. A lot of the suggestions won't really work as it'll make Protoss too powerful. Sentry damage used to be 8 instead of 6 during beta and that nerf was more than justified. Sentries are supposed to be support, but their dps allowed them to be more than just that. The zealot nerf time really hurt, but fixing that won't really solve anything. Protoss already has a decent early game against Zerg without pre-nerf 2gate pressure and it's not the Zealot build time nerf that's causing problems in PvT. | ||
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ensis
Germany340 Posts
maybe phoenix should become a scout, or the collossi should get a basedamage of 45 with reduced attackspeed. or the stalker should get a tweak. i mean, the stalker is designed as a fast blinking hitnrun bitch. but its more like a get hit and run unit. i mean, cmon 160hp for an harrassment unit? i say, double the damage, lower the shields by 50 and the health by 30. the oneonone abilities would stay the same, but they would finally be able to kill at least a probe with 2 shots, still needing 3 for drones and scvs. also the combination of zealot stalker would be like tank and dps and not like tank and tank. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On November 03 2010 02:31 Offhand wrote: Maybe I'm crazy but wouldn't un-nerfing the zealot build time fix a lot of early game problems? Currently, zealots are mediocre early game, terrible mid game, and great once you get charge. Maybe make charge cheaper with a shorter build time. | ||
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dragonsuper
Liechtenstein222 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
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smoorn
Poland66 Posts
On November 03 2010 03:40 ensis wrote: well, i want the protoss to have some harrass options available maybe phoenix should become a scout, or the collossi should get a basedamage of 45 with reduced attackspeed. or the stalker should get a tweak. i mean, the stalker is designed as a fast blinking hitnrun bitch. but its more like a get hit and run unit. i mean, cmon 160hp for an harrassment unit? i say, double the damage, lower the shields by 50 and the health by 30. the oneonone abilities would stay the same, but they would finally be able to kill at least a probe with 2 shots, still needing 3 for drones and scvs. also the combination of zealot stalker would be like tank and dps and not like tank and tank. im sorry, this is the most stupid idea ever - double stalker damage LOL u want stalkers to become marauders? idk why but zealots feel like they're made of paper in sc2, they felt so much stronger in bw, id prefer if they were speedlots instead of chargelots.. and someone can tell me why only terran has upgrades which are 50/50? i mean the slowing granades for marauder have basically the same effect as charge for zealots but zealot upgrade is 200/200 and much more far away in tech tree and it also takes forever to get that upgrade | ||
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ensis
Germany340 Posts
On November 03 2010 03:45 dragonsuper wrote: stalker tanking units ? they are way too fragile comparing them to old BW dragoons. for example, stalkers tank marines just as well as zealots. so vs a marine army, its tank and tank. its that simple. and stalkers also tank for collossi. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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