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On November 03 2010 04:36 Raggydiaper wrote:
Give sentries a new spell, maybe take out halluc, spend 100 energy and allows the area around it to be scanned so invisible units are detected.
This way they aren't forced into robo play, can fend off banshees, are penalized early game with two less forcefields.
The ability would very much be like a scan but non-targettable (dust from wc3).
I sort of like this. And at 100 energy it's not like you could simply warp in sentries for detection if you really needed it.
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On November 03 2010 05:38 Endorsed wrote:
Seriously? There were certain impossible to stop void ray timing pushes. Even if you blindly prepared for them, void ray got nerfed. 2/4 gate is one of the easiest things to do to get you in diamond. Learn other builds.. By the way, they are going to nerf storm.
$20 they nerf Stim first.
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idk why but zealots feel like they're made of paper in sc2, they felt so much stronger in bw, id prefer if they were speedlots instead of chargelots.
I personally love having a 100 cost base unit with a slow build time that gets crushed by other tier one units in versatility and usability. Whats even better is needing to get a cyber core to even be able to build something thats halfway decent.
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On November 03 2010 05:47 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 05:38 Endorsed wrote:
Seriously? There were certain impossible to stop void ray timing pushes. Even if you blindly prepared for them, void ray got nerfed. 2/4 gate is one of the easiest things to do to get you in diamond. Learn other builds.. By the way, they are going to nerf storm. $20 they nerf Stim first.
100 Euro's they nerf them at the same time. However I can't see how they can nerf stim without breaking TvZ. Zerg has problems with late game protoss anyway so nerfing storm against that isn't a problem.
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On November 03 2010 05:47 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 05:38 Endorsed wrote:
Seriously? There were certain impossible to stop void ray timing pushes. Even if you blindly prepared for them, void ray got nerfed. 2/4 gate is one of the easiest things to do to get you in diamond. Learn other builds.. By the way, they are going to nerf storm. $20 they nerf Stim first.
Stim was already nerfed since BW. Look it up
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On November 03 2010 05:49 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 05:47 Grond wrote:On November 03 2010 05:38 Endorsed wrote:
Seriously? There were certain impossible to stop void ray timing pushes. Even if you blindly prepared for them, void ray got nerfed. 2/4 gate is one of the easiest things to do to get you in diamond. Learn other builds.. By the way, they are going to nerf storm. $20 they nerf Stim first. 100 Euro's they nerf them at the same time. However I can't see how they can nerf stim without breaking TvZ. Zerg has problems with late game protoss anyway so nerfing storm against that isn't a problem.
I'll raise you both and say the'll nerf something about the marauder. Because the marauder is basicly the core problem of early TvP and furthermore this would ALSO just barely influence TvZ. Terran definitely doesn't rely on them to survive (early) vs Zerg.
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The problems with protoss arent anyone's fault,is blizz fault.
First of all,theyr process of creating SC2 was something like "randomly pick unit X,replace with unit Y".
Without thought regarding the problems they were causing.It was something like,they took the chess game,
gave white 2 more horses instead of 2 pawns,and replaced black's horses with 2 pawns.
Now the white has 4 horses and 6 pawns,and black has 10 pawns.Now if Kasparov played against some chess newb he might been able to win if he played black,but when 2 chess champs play,black is obviously disadvantaged.
Let me explain.Terrans got the firebat/medic/valkyrie/goliath/vulture/dropship/wraith/science vessel removed.But they mixed the firebat with the vulture creating the hellion,the medic with the dropship creating the medivac.
They did that to stop medic walls which were frowned upon in tvz in bw,and they created the hellion because they didnt wanted
vulture bombs anymore.Also viking is an goliath/wraith combination,it acts like the goliath on ground and like the wraith on the air,
while retaining the goliath's giant range.They replaced the science vessel with the raven.They also added the marauder and banshee who gained the wraith's cloack ability.
Zerg.They removed the lurker/defiler/scourge/queen/defiler/devourer/guardian.Guardian/devourer remained,but they were renamed brood
lord/corruptor with modifications.They made the scourge ground,creating the baneling and removing the lurker because "theyr roles overlaped".
Defiler was turned into the infestor.The queen was turned from an offensive unit into an defensive/macro oriented unit.They added the roach
and overseer.
Protoss.Here is the fun part.They removed the dragoon/dark archon/arbiter/corsair/scout/reaver.The dragoon was replaced with the more mobile stalker.
The dark archon was permanently removed.The arbiter was turned into the mothership and was made unique(no more then 1).Scouts were removed.Reaver was replaced
with Collosus.Corsair was replaced with phoenix.The shuttle was replaced with the warp prism.They added immortal,sentry and void ray.
With this introduction i wanted to sustain my next point.It seems blizz just "trimmed the herbs" a little,and hoped things will solve by themselves with beta.
Unfortunatelly they didnt.
From what u see Terrans received the most polished.It might seem ok because its theyr expansion,and by this pattern it might seem
that each race will get its share of love.But the problem still stands.
Terrans had 6 units merged into 3.Hellion/medivac/viking.They gained much versatily with that change.Practically they only lost the valkyrie which was only marginally used
in tvz by some builds,the sci vessel which was replaced by the raven(while many ppl question this swap).Wraith was split into viking and banshee,removing its weakness(its low AtG
atack) by giving the banshee and good AtG atack and no AtA atack.
Zerg.Theyr most biggest blow was the loss of the lurker,which was part of numerous strats,both in zvp and zvt.Also not many zergs cried over the loss of the bw queen and were happy with the new queen.
Also having an good AtA unit ,the corruptor at lair tech made the loss of the scourge bearable.Blizz fixed the ultra in the last patch of the beta.While many ppl complained about the infestor,
that he doesnt compare to the defiler,he is an capable spellcaster.And the only complaint was the lack of hidralisk love(increasing its cost,while giving it marginally dps increase).
The reason behind this was mostly to prevent ZvP from turning into an hidra fest like in BW.(perhaps im wrong).
And finally,Protoss.
Because this discussion is Toss oriented il focus more on toss.
First the good changes.
-Replacing the dragoon with a more mobile unit.
-Giving them an pre-HT caster,the sentry.
-Giving them an anti-tank and anti-ultra weapon(besides the archon),the Immortal.
-Giving the new shuttle,the ability to warp in troops anywhere on the map.
Macro changes
-The Chronoboost gives unique posibilities compared to other races by accelerating upgrades/slow building units.
Now i've left the "controversial " changes to the end.
-The collosus replacing the reaver was an change cheered by many and not by some.In fact its an matter of choice,
both have theyr weaknesses and strenghts.While reaver was cheaper,and it was better against most zerg units,including ultras,Collosi are only good against hidras and lings,moderately good against small numbers of roaches and suck
vs ultras,but theyr atack doesnt costs minerals,and they dont require an shuttle to be fully operational and they can walk up clifs.
Please not that i left the "controversial" changes at the end because i dont want to turn this thread into an "collosus vs reaver" or "phoenix vs corsair" threads.
-The phoenix replacing the corsair was also an controversial change.It replaced an unit with splash,which had an great ability "Disruption Web" which has great usage in PvZ.
Also by replacing an splash unit with an non-splash unit,the opened up the path to muta harass again.Mutas dont stack as they did in sc 1,but they still temporarelly stack when arriving to the location u clicked upon,or they converge when atacking ground units.
Thats why thors got splash in beta,to make them better against mutas.Now zergs dont even bother splitting theyr mutas anymore.Many of u will say that going phoenix prevents the zerg from going mutas.
That is partially true.Unlike corsairs,they require an above average amount of micro to be able shoot while moving and keep them away from mutas.Second,in bw,if the zerg was getting hidras to counter ur corsairs,u could get disruption web,
an awesome spell which had incredible usage.While with the phoenix u get an gimicky spell,which allows u to pick some drones.
-They nerfed storm.While many ppl think that is compensated by the eficiency of the collosus when dealing with hidrask.
Also pls note that Blizz said that theyr looking into it and probably will nerf storm again in the near future.
-Another very large hit,was the splitting of the DT from the Templar Archives and giving it its own tech structure.Aparenttly blizz didnt liked 2 burgers at the price of 1.
Also it killed the only true harassing unit the toss had,both in pvt and pvz.If u want to go for DT now and u have less then 3 bases,ur strat walks very thin on the verge of all-in or ur denying valuable tech for
and unit which is easilly denied,at least by competent players.And while this didnt partially afected PvT,it deeply affected PvZ,the zerg can happily drone now and all we have left is phoenix harass(easilly countered).
-The archon.While many ppl will say "u already get ur money for storming with ur HT,the archon is just the icing on the cake".Well the archon was an staple unit in PvZ.It was the only unit which could witstand the ultra toe-to-toe,
it countered cracklings with its massive splash.It also did very good against stacked mutas(that happened very rarely cause mutas could outrun them),but with the help of Maelstrom, the archon could had been properly deployed against mutas.
Now the archon is an former shell of its once great self.Its splash has been severely reduced.And while theyr are 3 diferent costs,depending on the templars used,rarelly u see them morphed from DT because of the reasons enumerated above.
But the biggest blow to the archon(and also to most gas heavy units) is the removal of depleted vespene geysers to continously produce small quantities of vespene,even when depleted.
In long battles u could see large quantities of vespene which could be spent on archon armies(see Stork vs GGPlay on andromeda) because 4 depleted geysers produced vespene as 1 non depleted geyser.
-Arbiter.Blizz thought this unit is too strong and they gave it an shiny name and shiny story/look and voila! the mothership was born.But in fact they limited us to 1 of our greatest casters.
The mothership require an absurd amount of resources to be build and its tech path would be more usefull if the stargate harbored better air units.
Rarelly is the mothership used,unless its an semi-cheese tact(see HuK's mothership rush).
-While few have morned the loss of the Scout,the protos lack an heavy AtA hitter atm,maybe future expansions will bring one.Yes phoenix can kill ovies at an agonizangly slow pace and Voids are cool,but u need to charge them first and 1.1.2 really
cutted on the usefullness of Voids.Theyr non-charged dmg is better now,while theyr only strenght(the charged dmg) has been nerfed.
This nerf and many others(and more to come) are credited to the copper/silver/gold leagues where they use 1 unit.The ones who loose QQ on the forums and Blizz who doesnt want to dissapoint the majority of theyr playerbase,will immediatly nerf that unit.
-Carrier.The problem with the carrier isnt the carrier itself,it is the cost and the tech path.And also there isnt an prequisite unit that allows u to transition into carriers.Corsairs were great because it dealt enough dmg and allowed enough safety to
build carriers.Pls try to go phoenix/carrier against zerg now and see how it works.Or void ray/carrier,altought ive seen a few players tried it against me,back when voids were pretty good.
As an conclusion,Toss players didnt started to suck now all of an sudden,the problem is that unlike zergs who lost scourge/lurker,zergs just used the spawn larva ability(another "great ideea" by blizz) to just spawn more stuff and throw them at theyr oponents.
The problem is that we lost all our shiny toys which made toss imba and an good race.No more arbiters,no more corsairs,DT are very slow to get,storm is nerfed now,ur dead twice by the time it takes to get the first carrier against an decent player,
were open up to muta harass,and i dont mean 3-5 mutas,i mean mass mutas,archons suck now.
In a word we got too little and they took too much from us.Blizz thinks we should "rought it until the next expansions come bearing the units we need.Players dont started sucking all of the sudden.Toss is very predictable.They nerfed our only decent harassing unit(DT) and
removed the other(corsair) destroying an good combo.And u know what means if u dont harass the zerg and u let him happily drone up.On smaller maps u can try to push,altough 4 gating stoped working against decent players long ago,but on large maps while 4 gating isnt an option,with what
are we to harass the zerg without resorting to an risky strat (3 gate into stargate for phoenix) or almost an all-in (4 gate dt)?
We lost our sparkle,our shiny stuff,the things that made protoss look like and trully advanced alien race.I understand that they are now weak cause they lost Aiur,theyr forges and theyr mighty armies/fleets but this is freaking retarded.Gameplay>lore.
Pls excuse any grammar errors,english isnt my native language and also pls excuse the giant wall of text,i just had many things to say  .
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Honestly, as a 2200 toss player, top 200 europe, I don't think protoss is underpowered. We just got somewhat unlucky in GSL 1 and 2. It is probably just an accident, GSL 2 is not the only tournament out there. protoss has been doing well in recent tournaments.
The recent roach buff is quite a pain in the ass, but I still one gate expand against zerg (even on maps like xelnaga).
The voidray nerf is quite harsh. But it is understandable, because protoss had a very powerful 1 base allin(precharged) voidray+stalker against terran, The voidray also received a buff (in some ways). We saw Nexgenius using voidrays in an interesting and succesfull way against hopetorture, so that might be how future toss will use voidrays.
I don't understand all the people whining that toss needs a robo facility for observers. I often 1 gate expand against terran and doesn't get a robo until I feel there is need to (generally quite late). Top toss players don't get a robo out of fear for cloacked banshees; they make a robo because colossi are so strong. Obervers are just an added bonus on the way.
Oh, and all the people talking about ht... Ht are so bad I rarely make them. I haven't seen them in tournaments in a while. Colossi are a much better choice. HT make cool animations, but at my level my opponents always dodge them, emp them or whatever, and the storms tend to hit my own units instead, You could use all that gas in a much better way; for example send dts to all mining bases(dt handles drops also decently), or stargate tech, or colossi.
The only matchup whereby ht can be good i feel in pvT, when u are in late game and have to defend 4+ bases. otherwise just use colossi.
The two only thing which would be nice is a buff to the warp prism, they are so expensive, slow and fragile. I have been experimentating recently with them with satisfactory results. Secondly, hallucination is awesome spell. We have seen it used a lot is gsl. however, 100 energie is too much. I think 75 would be better.
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On November 02 2010 14:58 Inori wrote:So much hypocricy and misinformation in this thread, makes me a sad panda. 1.) Protoss is uncreative. Ok, so when Zerg is having troubles vs T early game, it's because the race is broken. With P, it's skill. Right. 2.) Protoss is doing fine on the ladder. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/race/all/1Above 2000 Diamond (which is also when people learn how to effectively defend against all-ins), there are much less Protoss in all regions. This is obviously because every single Protoss only knows how to all-in and doesn't even think about normal play, right? 3.) Protoss just got unlucky with GSL2. And GSL1? And Craftcup? And Zotac? And Go4SC2?
Thanks for the link Ive been looking for this forever but suck at web browsing. It seems like its gonna be alot of work to make protoss' competitive at higher levels and not completely OP at the lower levels.
I dont care how you want to frame it or if you guys want to say protoss is so easymode. Truthfully its much much easier to get to a high level as terran than any other race because they have the best tools for a savvy gamer to do so. Graphs like these are a pretty good indicator that protoss has limited success above a certain points level, but that they are having too much success at some other skill levels. I think the higher you go the more likely you are to find players making the most of the races so you're going to get the best information there.
One thing I think these graphs dont show, and that most people are overlooking, is that tournament play is very rarely single elimination. The later they go, the more they go towards Bo3 Bo5 and Bo7s. Consider the limited amount of strategies for the protoss in a 'best of' environment as compared to a ladder match against a random player. To win a series you need to be versatile and have multiple approaches or they will figure you out because even the safest strategies arent unbeatable. I think the lack of early game variety is whats causing the disparity. You dont even have to make them stronger in the early game, just introduce some variety and things will fall into place. How to do this? I'm not a developer... but protoss is not OP or UP imo.. I think they just need to shift some of that late game strength into the early-mid game so it can be balanced in each stage.
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obviously protoss has the worst options for taking those xel'nagas. zerglings and marines are so much better for camping them - imba!
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It seems like a lot of this has to do with the current map pool too, on larger maps protoss could both explore other tech paths and get to the 3 base + late game where they are much much stronger and more developed. It currently seems like colossi are almost a necessity to survive to late game vs most unit compositions.
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Protoss seems like the weakest of the three races... from what I hear, PvT is horribly imbalanced. ZvP is much easier with the new improved roach :D
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In my opinion people need to realize that no matter what they are rated on LADDER, none of that matters unless they are playing top caliber players.
Allaboutyou is a top ladder player, but would he stand a chance in a GSL?
GSL has the highest quality of players, it is the best measuring stick we have for how the races are faring.
Zerg was hurting when fruitdealer was the only one going deep into GSL with it, it got some buffs, terran got some nerfs, and all of a sudden you saw a higher saturation of zerg in the later rounds the next GSL. Protoss has been continually getting nerfed, so you saw a lower saturation of it through the rounds.
Also just cause a strat works once doesn't mean that is the state of the game, genius did a strat that hopetorture didn't expect, that much was clear based on how tiny an army he had macro'd up at that point.
In the 4th game where genius did a similar strat he got absolutely run over by hopetorture's macro.
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this is purely based on skill level, to think otherwise is stupid and asking for balance discussion. I'm not gonna say toss is op, but toss players have been winning tournaments. Nexgenius won blizzcon, and that was a world wide tourney. Huk won an MLG not too long ago. Go ahead, tell me those weren't korean events, they weren't but it doesn't prove anything except that GSL has better players so the chances of losing are greater, doesn't matter what race you play or play against.
Also look at GSL1, everyone thought zerg was UP but fruit dealer came on top because he was simply more skilled. This season he loses, even with the zerg buff to a terran because he got matched up with a good player (as much as I hate the fake boxer for stealing that name, the no good son of a...).
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Kind of a minor point, but someone earlier in the thread mentioned clicking to warp in units - might be less of a problem on its own because warpgates make you change screen anyway, but isn't it awful that both the camera and the mouse are occupied during macro? Watching the d9d where he teaches wheat, Day[9] was constantly trying to get wheat to stop looking at his base and keep his camera on the army for micro, something you need the camera and the mouse to do effectively, and macro only using hotkeys and rally points.
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Whenever you lose a game as protoss and feel that it is weaker than the other races... Look closely..
Did you miss your timing window? Often protoss has a 1-2 minute of advantage followed by 5-10 minutes of disadvantage... Followed by end game unstopableness....
I feel that with the change to void rays they should be made a litutle more hearty as you cant very well harrass with them as you would mutas. But still if u just keep them alive once you get 4-5 out above a decent warp gate army they definatley pull their weight...
Protoss is a race of scouting/reaction... If you lost terribly, You probably missed something and reacted unfavorably or at the wrong time...
I do feel that PvZ at high levels it is hard to deal with mutas with anything but pheonix which requires a good bit of micro and usually leads to hydra switch... But if you can anticipate this and go pheonix into a hydra counter such as warpgate/colo....
Also.. Alot of protoss is balanced around the fact that Force fields are OVERPOWERED... So if your not using them properly. Its like a terran not getting stim and complaining that he cant put out enough dps.
If I had to complain about anything in the current state of PvZ or PvT. I would say
1. Archons/High Templars arent what they used to be, and with corruptors/thors taking energy away feedback is massivley less usefull.
2. With the new roach range buff it pretty much shuts down any Forge expand builds.. Possibly if roach range was a 100/100 upgrade that took 30-40 game seconds it would of preserved the protoss fast expand. But you can still go 1gate/robo/expand if you get an obs and a idea of what they are doing.
3. I feel like hallucinate should be 75 energy... A few hallucinated immortals and zealots in your front eat up a good amount of damage. (Hallucinated Immortals still have hardened sheilds) but at 100 energy a whack its massivley overlooked as 2 force fields are preferable.
And in my opinion the #1 reason that its mostly terran and zerg in the gsl finals...
oGs Team Roster
Protoss Players: 2
Terran Players: 5
Zerg Players: 4
Werra Team Roster
Protoss Players: 1
Terran Players: 3
Zerg Players: 2
Prime Team Roster
Protoss Players: 4
Terran Players: 8
Zerg Players: 3
TSL Team Roster
Protoss Players: 2
Terran Players: 3
Zerg Players: 1 (Fruitdealer)
So out of the top korean teams thats
9 Protoss
19 Terran
10 Zerg
Koreans tend to lean torwards Terran and Zerg....
Foreigners arent as good as koreans overall.. They can take games.. But in BO3... gl hf :D
= Less protoss in GSL.
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On November 03 2010 05:58 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 05:47 Grond wrote:On November 03 2010 05:38 Endorsed wrote:
Seriously? There were certain impossible to stop void ray timing pushes. Even if you blindly prepared for them, void ray got nerfed. 2/4 gate is one of the easiest things to do to get you in diamond. Learn other builds.. By the way, they are going to nerf storm. $20 they nerf Stim first. Stim was already nerfed since BW. Look it up
So does storm since BW. Look it up
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On November 03 2010 05:00 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 04:59 summerloud wrote:On November 03 2010 04:11 ensis wrote:im all for re-adding lurkers, medics, firebats, defilers, corsairs, even reavers - its hard to improve on unit designs that good and you say, my ideas are horrible? btw, the protoss still has sentries and immortals as its backbone. so what except for adding old and outdated units would you suggest? wtf is wrong with you? you seriously searched my old posts for something you could take out of context to make me look stupid? and then you go on to call immortals and sentries backbone units. obviously you have no understanding at all about how this game works yeah, you have. why cant immortals be backbone units? one reason
In addition to how hard it is to mass them due to their cost, build time is a decent reason. One Immortal takes 55 seconds, only 5 seconds less than a thor. This result of trying to use Immortals as a backbone unit is the same as using thors. It takes you the whole game to build up a decent force, and if they go down (which they will, because anyone who sees 10 immortals will counter it) its gg.
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Toss:
observer = cloaked unit, very hard to spot even with keen eyes
Terran:
Raven = easy to spot, very expensive and late game
Scan = terran loses mule ability with this
Zerg:
Overseer = has to give up gas and also risk losing supply
I don't see how toss can complain, an observer will generally stay alive longer and can scout in bases without risk of dying (most of the time). It can also follow armies and watch chokes, something ravens and overseers cannot do. Zerg has to risk losing supply for sending out overseers, they have changelings to follow armies but any competent player will see if they can't control the unit then it's fake. Terran probably has it the worst, they have an easy scan but at the cost of mules which are the equivalent of larve injects and chrono boosts, something you can't waste. Toss has the best detection unit (and also the best static D, photon cannons which shoot air and ground and detects) that is more than just detection, it can cloak and follow armies and do everything the terran and zerg can but all in one.
Maybe that was a balance discussion, but think of it as a rant.
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On November 03 2010 06:35 emc wrote:
Toss:
observer = cloaked unit, very hard to spot even with keen eyes
Terran:
Raven = easy to spot, very expensive and late game
Scan = terran loses mule ability with this
Zerg:
Overseer = has to give up gas and also risk losing supply
I don't see how toss can complain, an observer will generally stay alive longer and can scout in bases without risk of dying (most of the time). It can also follow armies and watch chokes, something ravens and overseers cannot do. Zerg has to risk losing supply for sending out overseers, they have changelings to follow armies but any competent player will see if they can't control the unit then it's fake. Terran probably has it the worst, they have an easy scan but at the cost of mules which are the equivalent of larve injects and chrono boosts, something you can't waste. Toss has the best detection unit (and also the best static D, photon cannons which shoot air and ground and detects) that is more than just detection, it can cloak and follow armies and do everything the terran and zerg can but all in one.
Maybe that was a balance discussion, but think of it as a rant.
The problem is not the observer unit itself, but instead that you have to go robo tech every frickin game
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EPT
