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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On November 02 2010 05:19 Jayrod wrote: The void ray nerf made toss players in tournaments even more one-dimensional. I wish theyd rework it to make it useful at least in the way banshees are useful. Actually protoss players use void rays much more after the so called "nerf" in pvt. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
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CheezDip
126 Posts
On November 02 2010 15:57 Vz0 wrote: Toss harass drops are pretty worthless. Marine pwn probes. Marauder pwns buildings Zealots cant kill scv, and are not as good as marauders at killing buildings. Stalkers just suck in general. Sentry for harass? what ? U gonna forcefield their mineral line? I don't mean to say that warp-in harass is comparable to medivac drops, but I do think that in the future, prisms will be a part of standard play. Whether that's a result of more experimentation by players, or by direct buffs to the prism to make it more attractive, only time will tell. There are tactics that haven't really been explored in depth (though I had seen some use in beta). For example: * Templar warp to storm scvs. * Ignore workers and instead lock a Terran out of his main with force field while you pick off units as they spawn from rax/factory. * Achieve an improbable warpin position that you otherwise couldn't get with a pylon, so that while your two armies clash, you can pick off reinforcements in the flank at a better kill ratio than they'd get in the primary fight. | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On November 02 2010 16:29 darmousseh wrote: My problem is I don't know how to play protoss after two bases. How do you play protoss on 3 bases? HT tech? collosus? carrier? mothership? While it's not really GSL related, you play in a similar manner, with more stuff. Protoss relies on being able to maximize the power of its tier 3, so more bases -> more colo or ht that can be produced. | ||
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
On November 02 2010 11:40 Easy772 wrote: Blizzard Hates Toss. Even in BW people would deny that Toss wasn't as good as Terran or Zerg, but to me it just seems like they have less going for them in general. Had Bisu played Terran from the start of his career people would be bringing up the B word. Deep down you know its true. On November 02 2010 15:22 Luvz wrote: Its the hardest race to play! OR + Show Spoiler + the game is totally imbalanced. Your choice Mr terran/zerg  Protoss has had the most players sience Beta. so saying that there isnt enugh people playing ect to get good enugh is fooling urself.. its up to you guys to decide. On November 02 2010 15:57 Vz0 wrote:Toss harass drops are pretty worthless. Marine pwn probes. Marauder pwns buildings Zealots cant kill scv, and are not as good as marauders at killing buildings. Stalkers just suck in general. Sentry for harass? what ? U gonna forcefield their mineral line? Wow, it's like I'm really on the battle.net forums! I can't wait for these flat out stupid balance discussions to go away. | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
As for warp prism play... It just really seems underwhelming outside of Immortal drops. Purely as a transport unit, it's better than the Medivac and Overlord. The problem is the "gimmick" ability is counter-intuitive to drop-harass. That and per-cargo-slot and per-cost, Protoss damage-dealing is just outright pathetic compared to T and Z. One of the important parts about harass is not trading your drop units because that diminishes the cost-effectiveness of harass. Medivac drops have great synergy because they transport the units, keep them alive as they stim and harass, reload everything, and then gtfo. Warp Prisms have an issue in this regard because they drop, allow you to change forms, warp in, and then when you leave, you kind of have to leave behind whatever incredibly expensive units you warped in. It's just not cost effective to drop and lose hundreds of minerals worth of units because you can't run away. Sure, just drop, harass, and reload without warping in but this brings me to the next point. Per cargo-space, Protoss DPS is horrible outside of a handful of units and this severely caps the efficiency of drop play because you just can't deal enough damage quickly to justify the risk. 2 marines deal more dps than 1 zealot even without stim. With stim, it's not even close. 1 marauder deals slightly less than 1 stalker against non-armored and severely out damages stalkers against armored. With stim, the marauder blows the stalker out of the water in both. Immortals deal good dps against armored, HTs are great against workers because of storm and Archon splash, and DTs shred units apart. The issue is a Warp Prism loaded with 2 immortals is 700 minerals and 200 gas. 4 HT is 400/600. 4 DT is 700/500. You lose any of those in transit and you'll be crying yourself to sleep that night. Lose it in retreat after harass and unless you did massive damage, the drop was pointless and you might actually even be behind. Risk / Reward is just not worth it. In comparison, 8 marine drop = 500/100. 4 marauder is 500/200. So really, Warp Prisms are just not effective as harass. I could see them used more frequently to gain positioning advantages in mid-field engagements but outside of NexGenius, I haven't really seen it done. It's just incredibly situational. | ||
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Fwiffo
Canada57 Posts
On November 02 2010 05:11 Ekko wrote: My humble opinion as not a protoss player but thinking of switching to them is that the issue is with the zealot, as it has been since beta. A zealot is an inigma for Blizzard to deal with balance wise. They are on paper the strongest tear 1 unit and at the terrible skill levels they decimate everything. Now at the higher skill levels where people know how to micro they are the most worthless attack unit in the game if they don't have charge. They are more of a liability to make in the early game and are really only good as doors on stop command blocking a base. They cost alot, move way to slow, are easily picked off, and die easily. How often do you see armies of zealots on the field in the early game with one or two stalkers to back them up? How often do you see armies of marines or zerglings with another unit to back it up? I think Ekko isolated the issue best. And to some degree it's also recognized by Blizzard, where at Blizzcon they said to the effect - they don't want one race strong in early-to-mid game and the other strong late game. More specifically the Protoss lacks an early massable unit combo that yields greater returns with greater micro. This is most apparent in Korea where it's generally accepted that their players have higher APM and favor greater micro plays. For Terran it's stimmed M&M, Zerg it's Muta-ling or just ling. Just review mentally how many top pro games open like this with uber micro'd Zerglings zipping around picking off units, or stimmed M&M moving in, sniping, pull-back. This may not win the game out-right, but it places enough pressure early on to often determine the final outcome - Toss Loss. For Toss, the only early tier unit that yields wonders with superb micro is the Sentry and its Force Fields. You expend APM on FF to negate your opponents APM by preventing their units from microing away and allow your slow but powerful units to close in for the kill. The problem is the Sentry is too expensive and not massable safely. To do so represents a massive risk since it's such a gas sink early game limiting your tech paths and production. Further a misplaced FF can mean the game - mass lings run on by to mineral line, or M&M moves up your ramp and kill your Gateway units outright. And good post by Brian333 just before me. | ||
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thehitman
1105 Posts
No, seriously though its because of individual mistakes made by the players and that's the general reason. That said I have no idea if its balanced or not, I think we need more time to see how the game develops and what strategies arise. Until then, I think its fine as it is and see no clear advantage other races would have vs protoss. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
To me, NEXGenius is the best protoss player right now followed by TSL sSKS. sSKS has been playing sloppy from what I've seen and refer to from the Team Invitational to finding out him getting knocked out during qualifiers because of an "awkward" timing push. The thing about awkward timing push is that sSKS has been put on the spotlight in many situations where it was certain he would have to GG like against FreeSaga or HyperDub but ends up pulling out with the win so that excuse of him not accustomed to that push is voided in my opinion. oGsInCa is remarkably talented that needs to improve on transitioning whenever things don't go his way. He can't just try to force it upon his opponent because then you are throwing a lot of resources just to make it go way that the opponent will have the perfect counter for it and more. Next would be TSL BabyByeBye. I love his play and don't see that many weak points except his macro. He slacks in macro just a tad but that's because you have to be very micro intensive with Protoss. Every unit LITERALLY counts for the Protoss race whereas for Zerg they can just replenish their units easily because they are cheap and same goes for Terran but not as easily as Zerg. HongUnPrime would be next after SangHo in my list. He is just a very smart player that knows the ins and outs of the game and the race but he played sloppy in the Ro64 a little bit and cost him the game. oGsMC is next in line helping his team come back and beat most of the former team WeRRa. As a protoss player, I watch numerous VoDs and Replays of Protoss players where some win and some lose. To me it comes down to time, resources, micro, and no mistakes. By no mistakes, I literally mean flawless playing from this race. Zerg and Terran can make one or two little mistakes but it's like if a Protoss player does, it's basically over for them. Protoss is just so micro intensive that you can really macro that well at the same time a small-medium size battle is taking place because every unit counts as I reiterate this statement. You literally have to perfectly or close to it place your units in the right spot or else your entire army dies. Around the early game, Protoss is down on army units and rely heavily on very well-placed FFs, micro-ing your Stalkers, keeping your zealots up front. Just so much for a Protoss player to focus on at such an early stage of the game where a single pixel off will turn the tide completely for the race. Terran and Zerg is more of a brute force where they don't rely on casters (sentries) in the early game and can just focus on surrounding (zerglings) or kiting (MM). | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
Blizzard will probably have to nerf zergs in the next patch to make the balance more fair. | ||
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Tirr
Russian Federation122 Posts
1. Lack of early game harass (not 4gating). 2. Completely predictable late game - it is just Colossus-HT+gateway units. 3. The only creativeness comes from cheases - DT, VR. After the cheese is properly scouted - you can throw that units right away. 4. A lot of SHITTY units - carriers, mothership is a joke, VR is hardly integrated in regular army and is used for cheeses only, phoenixes are used mostly in PvZ for killing couple of probes, archons are bad. 5. Warp prism is crap compared to other races - especially it's speed. T have dropships with good speed and heal. Ovies after the upgrade is a free transport for 100 minerals which you will have in insane amounts. 6. HT is insanely good unit, but to get it to full strength you have to spend like 1100 minerals 950 gas for 2 fully upgraded HTs. While infestors and ghosts have their core skills just at the start (EMP, fungal). 7. Every game you HAVE to go robo, unless you will be destroyed by invisible unit. This+p.6 leads again to completely predictable late game - gate units+colossus. And saying that P late game is hard to beat... Colossus are easily countered by vikings/corruptors, HT are completely demolished by ghosts. | ||
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undyinglight
United States611 Posts
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Tuneful
United States327 Posts
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
Do you know that storm hit for less dmg on a smaller area, and running away with worker is alot easier becouse of the AI. In Brood War the workers got stucked in eachanother, now they go trough anything | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 02 2010 17:36 undyinglight wrote: Motherships need a huge buff and colossi are to vulnerable being able to be hit by both air and ground simultaneously. This needs to be changed to one or the other. If colossi could not be hit by air in pvz zerg would never ever be able to beat a protoss once colossi were on the field... I bet the same would be true with tvp. Would make Toss horribly imbalanced. | ||
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Jimmy Raynor
902 Posts
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Crissaegrim
2947 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + This child is terran The second son is the leather-jacket, cig smoking, tattoo pierced, rebellious son. Comes home late or not at all for days at a time. Doesn't really care about his parents. Now blizz might argue with this son alot but at the end of the day, blizz still acknowledges and loves this son. + Show Spoiler + zerg The 3rd son is the abomination, bastard, ingrown mutant child-that-never-was that will forever be locked in the basement. | ||
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jahre
United States95 Posts
1. A month ago, zerg was underpowered. Now they roam freely amongst the top of the GSL. Explain. 2. As aformentioned, the tosses just played poorly or got cheesed. So what? It's one tournament. Don't measure success, especially the success of a race, off ONE tournament. 3. All races are viable as we've seen. I'm not even sure there's that big of an imbalance at all. User was warned for this post | ||
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
There is something wrong with this race, I respect others opinions on thinking everything is fine but I beg to differ. Another thing is, people say things like: There isn't a Protoss hero like there is for Z (Cool..etc) and T (ITR..etc) There was, his name was Tester (Say hello to the player who won the 2nd most tournaments during beta). Anyway, people are also saying that there aren't people on Cool/ITR's ..etc level playing Protoss. What the heck sort of statement is this? You mean the most (was) played race doesn't have the player base to supply a hero toss? Don't be absurd. There's something very wrong here. Yeah, I'm talking about odds, not "oh most BW players went to T or Z" but what about the newcomers doing well that no one had heard about in BroodWar? Where's Toss version? Maybe Toss doesn't appeal to old BW pros, but so what? Playerbase should compensate for that and should at least produce a SOLID and CONSISTANT hero. Whether BW is/was invlolved or not. But sadly, that just isn't the case. One issue I'll comment on is how Micro orientated Protoss is, a mistake can cost you the game and is far less forgiving than the other races. Idk how people can say that it's because P doesn't have a "hero" that they aren't doing well right now. Try being that hero when you have to be INSANELY better than your opponent to string together a decent series in the upper echelons of play. | ||
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Moragon
United States355 Posts
On November 02 2010 17:56 jahre wrote: Come on, really? How fucking stupid are you people? It's obvious that some of the best tosses played poorly (for whatever reason), and for that, they are no longer in the GSL. Here are keypoints for you to take into consideration: 1. A month ago, zerg was underpowered. Now they roam freely amongst the top of the GSL. Explain. 2. As aformentioned, the tosses just played poorly or got cheesed. So what? It's one tournament. Don't measure success, especially the success of a race, off ONE tournament. 3. All races are viable as we've seen. I'm not even sure there's that big of an imbalance at all. This thread is about their performance in both GSLs where there have been 57 protoss players who have combined to win one game in the round of 8. Nearly 60 pro players didnt just all play like shit in their matches. At the highest level of competition they just arent up to snuff right now. In contrast zerg has had 31 players in the first 2 GSL's, won the first tournament and has a player in the semi's in the second. While it has generally been thought that they were "underpowered" before the latest patch, theve performed just fine at the highest level. | ||
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