[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 20

On November 02 2010 12:13 tarath wrote:
Immortals, collosi and observers all do nothing to help vs mutas.

Do you have any examples of pro level games where a pro opened 2-gate robo, his opponent went 2-base muta and he was fine? I thought it was standard that 2-gate robo was a build order loss vs mutas and could only be done if you scout a roach warren (or want to gamble). I'd definitely be interested in seeing how you can produce enough stalkers to fight mutas out of 2 gates with no starport or twilight council out before the mutas hit.

On November 02 2010 10:28 Silidons wrote:

That isn't a build or strategy.

I think it is pretty insulting to imply that players like SongHo, Tester, NexGenius, etc never learned how to do anything but 4 gate and thus are losing in the GSL...

I honestly just don't understand how you could claim this is why Protoss are struggling in the GSL unless you didn't watch the games.

Tarath

On November 02 2010 13:27 Subversion wrote:


Genius goes 1gate 1robo expand like every game. That's certainly not all-in.

Also, why is everyone choosing to ignore that a Protoss won Blizzcon? Are we just going to brush over tourneys where they do well, and focus on one where they haven't and cry imbalance?

On November 02 2010 13:27 Subversion wrote:


Genius goes 1gate 1robo expand like every game. That's certainly not all-in.

Also, why is everyone choosing to ignore that a Protoss won Blizzcon? Are we just going to brush over tourneys where they do well, and focus on one where they haven't and cry imbalance?

On November 02 2010 13:29 iCanada wrote:

I apologize, i didn't word that as clearly as i could have. Just in general, the many of the protoss i play at my low low low (LOW) diamond level just lose as soon as their fourgate is done, and are just now starting to experiment with builds like 2gate robo etc whereas Terran and Zerg players just seem to not do the same thing 90% of the time.

Hell, as a random player myself, i just 4gate with Protoss.

But i definetly don't think that is why pro's are losing in the GSL. I think for the most part it is just bad luck, for example Tester never made it to the ro64 this time around, yet we know he is better than most of the players that did. The game is young, and gimmicks catch people by surprise.

On November 02 2010 13:50 Dfgj wrote:
Protoss play on a whole is very unforgiving early on - we've seen this in a lot of cases where good players are knocked out because they misplaced a cannon, or were 1 second late with a forcefield, or had a single bad engagement. It's not that surprising that with the game still somewhat unrefined that Protosses can be taken out by things that are hard to expect and defend against, or require very high precision in defense.

A lot of good Protoss players went down in GSL (or didn't qualify) just because of game-costing errors (hello sanZenith and sangho).

On November 02 2010 13:19 SharkSpider wrote:
I wouldn't call balance on it yet, but the last thing blizzard should do is look at lower-tier players when making balance decisions. Pros should play in the most balanced environment blizzard should provide, and lesser players like most of us in NA should be trying to emulate their tactics and strategies, and figure out what works when.

On November 02 2010 14:20 CheezDip wrote:
It feels like one of protoss's abusive units--the warp prism--is not fully explored or exploited. I think it was NexGen in the blizzcon finals that did a sick immortal drop on tanks while the rest of his army engaged the infantry on Xel'Naga Caverns. But more importantly, Terran can keep up a lot of pressure by attacking and dropshipping simultaneously, but we rarely ever see prism warp-in used the same way.

Success also seems to hinge largely on flawless force field timing and placement; often a single force field makes the difference between a crushing defeat and a dominating victory.

On November 02 2010 14:02 mR.bONG789 wrote:

sanZenith wasnt an error, it may have been the first time but what he did the second time was just stupid

The main factor dissuading P players from exploiting warp prisms more is the opportunity cost of devoting production time to the prisms, which takes away production time from everything else the robo has to offer. For the other races, building dropships does not detriment your ability to scout, fight armored units, or inflict splash damage.

On November 02 2010 14:46 FinestHour wrote:


Perhaps moving the warp prism to the stargate instead so it doesn't delay the crucial immortal/colossus coming out? Seems that it would make a good use of stargates that aren't really used too much and would not hamper robo production so much that the protoss army would get decimated by a T or Z

On November 02 2010 07:33 HowardRoark wrote:
Well, in my opionion Protoss problem is that they are just too easy to play...

I am going to try to explain why I believe this, so read it all before temp-banning me

Zerg require a ton of APM to play, and some people that reach low level diamond with Protoss in a week or too would never be able to leave bronze if they tried Zerg, and, since the nerfs to Terran they have started to require a #¤%#load of skill to be able to beat Zerg.

When the game was new all three races started to move towards their each individual skill cap, and while Protoss perhaps have reached it already, Zerg and Terran keeps improving and improving, and just like in Brood War this is starting to show, but the problem with SC2 this was obvious much sooner than in Brood War.

The game was balanced around a completely different level than what the Korean Terrans and Zergs are starting to reach now, and since the game was somewhat balanced (Protoss is still superior in the low levels due to their simplicity), Protoss is now starting to lag behind since they can't improve much further.

Keep in mind that in Brood War you actually had some really APM demanding things to do even as P, like Reaver Shuttle micro, carpet storms, Zealot bombs etc (I could come up with better examples another day), and still, showing after 12 years, Protoss is too weak at top level but not at all too weak at the lower levels. (I read P is the only choice for pro BGH )

But... in SC2 Blizzard even gave P autoshooting Phoenix and nothing at all to master in the way of micro. Protoss players talk with awe about "insane Forcefields", but that is nothing compared to the resources a player like Foxer can utilize against Zerg with his marine micro. Protoss does not need stronger units; Protoss needs units that is hard to master so that at the lower levels these strategies are useless until a really skilled player finally make it useful, or else, Blizzard can not balance the game out, since that would make P too strong at lower levels.

The thing is, that most of the time you watch a high level game involving a P (and by that I mean top Korean level, not MLG Raleigh), it always seem as though it is up to his Z or T opponent to play good enough to beat the P, and not that the P was good enough to use his skills to overcome his opponent, since at that level they have almost or perhaps already, reached the skill ceiling for the P race.

The only way I believe it is possible for Blizzard to make P somewhat playable at the highest levels without completely screwing with the casual players balance, is to design P units that require a really talented player to master, so the skill ceiling can be moved upwards.

Also, since I guess this skill cap is obvious to the players that are at the top, most of them wont even pick Protoss to begin with, since they are aware of this, and also the less talented players will opt for P, since, yes, they are just too easy. Players like Cool would be stupid going P, since they would surpass the abilities of the race too quickly. Even TLO mentioned that he liked Zerg since it was "almost like SupCom, you can keep improving and improving and you always need more and more APM". I wonder what his verdict is against P...

Protoss have been the newbie-race in both Brood war and in SC2, but I think that with SC2 Blizzard went too far. They are liks drugs, quick and easy to enjoy, but really drags you down in the long run. What Blizzard should start with is to remove the silly autoshooting Phoenix, and make them behave exactly the same or a bit better with masterful micro control. That could be a way to start to balance it out without totally screwing the low level balance, and no, Blizzard can't only balance the game for the top Korean tier, since that would then make the game unplayable for anyone opting for a fun game of SC2 anytime they faced a P.

If I still did not manage to express my point good enough (I believe I might have not, I am tired today), I will add 3 examples from youtube showing what I am trying to say. And no, this is not "Insane Forcefield control!", but something that actually require pro skill to pull off.

Bisu vs spider mines

Stork's reaver

This is not Phoenix