|
On November 02 2010 10:16 noD wrote:
The problem has been stated.
Protoss is way to easy in "lower" levels and lower levels seems something like 1xxx or 2xxx diamond ....
And saying the game is imbalanced because of tourneys won by protoss is the same as telling bw isnt balanced too (which we all know is ... )
I still think they should forget bw's P and do a complete reboot of the race, adding more mechanics and not 4gates/2gates/1g1s/1g dark shrine allinish ....
I can totally sense the objectivism in this post /sarcasm.
1xxx or 2xxxx diamond is low?
are you dumb?
Firezerg whos 2007 points is ranked 243 region and 7xx world. Hes on top200.
You call that low?
What do you call high then? You do realize alot of the pros are sitting around the 1.9-2k
|
On November 02 2010 11:32 slam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 11:27 1Eris1 wrote:
best toss in the world not qualifying and the no.2 and no.3 having to play eachother in the ro.16 can do that to you.
Although give credit to guys like babybyebye and songho, whom showed good progress, and I'm sure will suceed in GSL3 Isn't babybyebye and Songho (Sang-Ho?) the same person? Or is it a different Songho?
Did I say that? blah. No I believe they're the same. = /
|
Blizzard Hates Toss.
Even in BW people would deny that Toss wasn't as good as Terran or Zerg, but to me it just seems like they have less going for them in general. Had Bisu played Terran from the start of his career people would be bringing up the B word. Deep down you know its true.
|
On November 02 2010 11:37 Vz0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 10:16 noD wrote:
The problem has been stated.
Protoss is way to easy in "lower" levels and lower levels seems something like 1xxx or 2xxx diamond ....
And saying the game is imbalanced because of tourneys won by protoss is the same as telling bw isnt balanced too (which we all know is ... )
I still think they should forget bw's P and do a complete reboot of the race, adding more mechanics and not 4gates/2gates/1g1s/1g dark shrine allinish .... I can totally sense the objectivism in this post /sarcasm. 1xxx or 2xxxx diamond is low? are you dumb? Firezerg whos 2007 points is ranked 243 region and 7xx world. Hes on top200. You call that low? What do you call high then? You do realize alot of the pros are sitting around the 1.9-2k
" " is made for sarcasm indeed
and that 1.7 - 2k seems to be exactly the point where protoss start hitting walls (according to tl forum on several another threads ... )
which just illustrates that they need a reboot to be less forgiving in lower (which is pretty high actually) levels and more dynamic in high levels
|
Few protoss using storm when they should.
|
On November 02 2010 11:43 Thurokiir wrote:
Few protoss using storm when they should.
So when is a good time to use storm?
If your answer is anytime before lategame (3 bases) then you probably aren't playing at a very high level.
If your answer is lategame then in many cases protoss are getting storm or have a big enough deathball they don't really need storm.
|
The interesting thing about Protoss is that they are dominant across all matchups (especially against Terran) in the various leagues except one: Diamond Korea. This, I believe is because Protoss is "easier" to play at the lower levels - they have a wide variety of powerful, relatively easy to execute strats.
Protoss players who have climbed the ranks have relied on these techniques are now struggling because higher level players can counter them.
|
On November 02 2010 11:52 Azzur wrote:
The interesting thing about Protoss is that they are dominant across all matchups (especially against Terran) in the various leagues except one: Diamond Korea. This, I believe is because Protoss is "easier" to play at the lower levels - they have a wide variety of powerful, relatively easy to execute strats.
Protoss players who have climbed the ranks have relied on these techniques are now struggling because higher level players can counter them.
Yeah, i feel like Protoss players havn't been as creative because fourgate is good, prevalent, and fairly easy to use. Why do another build if 4gate works?
|
Doesn't help that Sang ho and ssks got taken out by terran early game and that the other 2 great Toss players (genius and jmc) absolutely refused to play standard builds altogether. Well, genius tried one but got wrecked by thor rush with repair exploit.
|
SC BW:
HISTORY: 5 BONJWA -4 TERRAN +1 ZERG- currently dominating: Jaedong and Flash.
SC2:
GSL1 + GSL 2: NO TOSS IN THE SEMI FINALS DESPITE they have MORE PLAYERS THAN ZERG? LOL ? AND ZERG STILL GOT FRUIT DEALER BABY!
-> Toss pros are just newbie compared to the other very top zerg or terran ALTHOUGH TOSS IS A STRONG RACE(genius said once in the interview)
True talents lie in Zerg and Terran, while toss is for noobs who cant even present to the world a true Bonjwa.
In fact, if you play the game, toss is the most noob friendly race with the lowest skill required.
|
On November 02 2010 11:20 slam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 11:07 Dommk wrote:On November 02 2010 10:58 slam wrote:On November 02 2010 10:56 Dommk wrote:
2 Gate robo is an awful build if you aren't going for an all-in vs Zerg... Why? Because you concede all map control. You opted for a robo instead of fast expand, so economically you are behind, but you are no better off than a Protoss who has Fast expanded, in fact you are actually in a worse position. The only thing you can build to aid you is immortals, which against Zerg is quite fine if they mass roaches, but if they have speedlings instead then immortals are worthless. The timing of the robo means you get it before any roaches hatch, so you are doing it blind. Your army is largely immobile, and if Zerg gets muta you have just lost the game because you are now left with useless tech, this is under the assumption that you aren't going for an all in. Right now, for PvZ any variant of a FE is pretty much the go to build, anything else is usually awful unless they are all-ins or DT's. LOL. Immortals are not the only unit you can build out of Robo facility. Observers? Colossus? Currently in the metagame roaches are EXTREMELY popular so I don't know why getting a robo blind is such a problem. As it gives you great scouting capabilities and the option to get immortals if they are going roaches. If Zerg gets muta you have not lost the game. That is a terrible assumption and you do not have useless tech because observer work very well for responding to muta harass. Many of the maps do not allow for very safe FEs.
What the hell. No. Because early roach pressure can be dealt by a safe fast expand like 3 gate FE. With 3gate FE you can grab a robo in time for any type of roach counter attack, but I go Stargate due to muta.
With any type of fast expand, you will begin production out of a late robo about the same time as a 2gate robo, especially if muta's are involved, unless you are going for an immortal timing attack.
|
Saying that Protoss players are all bad/uncreative because some Protoss players used 4 gate to get to diamond is a very bad point.
Most of the Protoss diamonds above 1200 are not there solely because of 4 gate and definitely the Korean pros are not either. Low level 4 gating has absolutely nothing to do with high level Protoss play. Maybe mid-low level diamond, but not high level.
|
On November 02 2010 11:20 slam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 11:07 Dommk wrote:On November 02 2010 10:58 slam wrote:On November 02 2010 10:56 Dommk wrote:
2 Gate robo is an awful build if you aren't going for an all-in vs Zerg... Why? Because you concede all map control. You opted for a robo instead of fast expand, so economically you are behind, but you are no better off than a Protoss who has Fast expanded, in fact you are actually in a worse position. The only thing you can build to aid you is immortals, which against Zerg is quite fine if they mass roaches, but if they have speedlings instead then immortals are worthless. The timing of the robo means you get it before any roaches hatch, so you are doing it blind. Your army is largely immobile, and if Zerg gets muta you have just lost the game because you are now left with useless tech, this is under the assumption that you aren't going for an all in. Right now, for PvZ any variant of a FE is pretty much the go to build, anything else is usually awful unless they are all-ins or DT's. LOL. Immortals are not the only unit you can build out of Robo facility. Observers? Colossus? Currently in the metagame roaches are EXTREMELY popular so I don't know why getting a robo blind is such a problem. As it gives you great scouting capabilities and the option to get immortals if they are going roaches. If Zerg gets muta you have not lost the game. That is a terrible assumption and you do not have useless tech because observer work very well for responding to muta harass. Many of the maps do not allow for very safe FEs.
Immortals, collosi and observers all do nothing to help vs mutas.
Do you have any examples of pro level games where a pro opened 2-gate robo, his opponent went 2-base muta and he was fine? I thought it was standard that 2-gate robo was a build order loss vs mutas and could only be done if you scout a roach warren (or want to gamble). I'd definitely be interested in seeing how you can produce enough stalkers to fight mutas out of 2 gates with no starport or twilight council out before the mutas hit.
On November 02 2010 12:04 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 11:52 Azzur wrote:
The interesting thing about Protoss is that they are dominant across all matchups (especially against Terran) in the various leagues except one: Diamond Korea. This, I believe is because Protoss is "easier" to play at the lower levels - they have a wide variety of powerful, relatively easy to execute strats.
Protoss players who have climbed the ranks have relied on these techniques are now struggling because higher level players can counter them. Yeah, i feel like Protoss players havn't been as creative because fourgate is good, prevalent, and fairly easy to use. Why do another build if 4gate works?
I think it is pretty insulting to imply that players like SongHo, Tester, NexGenius, etc never learned how to do anything but 4 gate and thus are losing in the GSL...
I honestly just don't understand how you could claim this is why Protoss are struggling in the GSL unless you didn't watch the games.
Tarath
|
SC BW:
HISTORY: 5 BONJWA -4 TERRAN +1 ZERG- currently dominating: Jaedong and Flash.
SC2:
GSL1 + GSL 2: NO TOSS IN THE SEMI FINALS DESPITE they have MORE PLAYERS THAN ZERG? LOL ? AND ZERG STILL GOT FRUIT DEALER BABY!
-> Toss pros are just newbie compared to the other very top zerg or terran ALTHOUGH TOSS IS A STRONG RACE(genius said once in the interview)
True talents lie in Zerg and Terran, while toss is for noobs who cant even present to the world a true Bonjwa.
In fact, if you play the game, toss is the most noob friendly race with the lowest skill required.
User was temp banned for this post.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
You really can't base one tournament for the collective balance of the game.
|
I feel that PvZ is fine however, I have some issues with PvT. Gateways units are just so terrible and something needs to change. I am not suggesting something radical ala roach range that would affect all MU's ; The change I would like to see is concussive shell's not being applied to zealots when they are charging. Gateway units would still melt, but this I feel would reduce some marauder mobility and give some breathing space and give protoss more of an incentive to go citadel first.
|
On November 02 2010 12:21 lefty wrote:
I feel that PvZ is fine however, I have some issues with PvT. Gateways units are just so terrible and something needs to change. I am not suggesting something radical ala roach range that would affect all MU's ; The change I would like to see is concussive shell's not being applied to zealots when they are charging. Gateway units would still melt, but this I feel would reduce some marauder mobility and give some breathing space and give protoss more of an incentive to go citadel first.
What? Charge is already pretty much the most useful upgrade in the game against terran, and once you get it marauders aren't really a big issue. The big issue is in early game before charge is really available, and IMO the fix would be to make marauders vs. stalkers a bit more even rather than marauders killing stalkers easily despite costing 25/25 less.
|
On November 02 2010 12:29 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 12:21 lefty wrote:
I feel that PvZ is fine however, I have some issues with PvT. Gateways units are just so terrible and something needs to change. I am not suggesting something radical ala roach range that would affect all MU's ; The change I would like to see is concussive shell's not being applied to zealots when they are charging. Gateway units would still melt, but this I feel would reduce some marauder mobility and give some breathing space and give protoss more of an incentive to go citadel first. What? Charge is already pretty much the most useful upgrade in the game against terran, and once you get it marauders aren't really a big issue. The big issue is in early game before charge is really available, and IMO the fix would be to make marauders vs. stalkers a bit more even rather than marauders killing stalkers easily despite costing 25/25 less.
+1 stalkers are even with marauders 
|
This is really getting off topic, there are multiple explanations besides balance. If you look at the brackets for both GSLs all the toss players have had tough brackets or played each other like genius and inca. Another explanation could be that alot of the ro64 was PvZ, right after the roach buff made FEs not viable on alot of maps, which was a fairly popular strategy.
|
Well, tester should have gone deeper. Other than that, you have, what inca and genius, who played each other, so one had to go out. Genius had to play hopetorture, who is obviously sick (bw pro). I mean, are there any other top level protoss gosus I'm missing? Oh yeah sangho. He did pretty well, and got knocked out by foxer, who looks utterly beastly, no shame in that.
Seems to make sense to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
