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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:58 slam wrote: LOL. I don't think that Funday Monday plays a very large part in shifting the metagame sadly. Haha, epic quote. Unfortunately we serious SC2 watchers are screwed into only sun/wed/thurs being viable dailies. | ||
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slam
United States923 Posts
On November 02 2010 09:13 Kpyolysis32 wrote: The 4v4 metagame has been irreversibly changed by the call your unit Funday (not that it's really important). I think that the only reason the 1v1 metagame hasn't been changed much is because he hasn't proposed enough viable stuff for it yet. Carrier rushes and no-useful-units builds are both pretty bad. The point of funday monday is not to make viable stuff. That is the point, that is why it is called "FUNday monday" and not "Try to own your opponent with good strategy monday". Are you really trying to argue with me by saying that Protoss is weak because Day9 hasn't come out with the latest funday monday for protoss 1v1 yet? | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
On November 02 2010 09:23 Armsved wrote: Protoss won blizzcon and huk just won that EG tournament. Im going to call variance on this. The skill level of top korean Terrans and Zergs is way higher then of the europeans/americans. IdrA had no problems dealing with HuK and he got knocked out in the Ro16 of the GSL. Also NexGenius was 1 of the only 2 koreans at blizzcon, facing the other korean in the finals. | ||
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slam
United States923 Posts
On November 02 2010 09:28 Logros wrote: The skill level of top korean Terrans and Zergs is way higher then of the europeans/americans. IdrA had no problems dealing with HuK and he got knocked out in the Ro16 of the GSL. Also NexGenius was 1 of the only 2 koreans at blizzcon, facing the other korean in the finals. Didn't he face Loner in the finals who was from China? EDIT: but yes, Korea did not have a large presence in either of these tournaments. | ||
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Karthane
United States1183 Posts
I really, really believed that PvZ is balanced and PvT is ALMOST 50/50 but maybe leans a little towards T. In any regard, i don't feel like that is the reason that no P has made it into the Ro4. I think it is simply because the Ps in the GSL are are for one, outnumbered to Ts, and two are just not playing well enough to make it in the finals. NEXgenious is an exception, and with Tester not making it in the Ro64 i just don't think there are any standout Ps in the GSL. Maybe season 3.. | ||
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dcberkeley
Canada844 Posts
On November 02 2010 05:44 Skyze wrote: So terran can play every matchup without a factory or starport, or zerg can play a whole game without a roach warren or spire.. but Protoss will instantly lose without a robo?? Do you see why this is not fair? Add up the fact how EXPENSIVE earlygame it is to get a Robo, and how if you try to get a Robo then theres no way in hell you'll have enough gas to afford templar tech (esp when you need 3+ sentries to block the ramp from the impending mass marauder charge).. Its just very rough. Thats the reason you dont see templars in the first ~20-30 minutes of a PvT, because if you get templars and they went banshees, you lose instantly because no obs.. and even if they stick with pure marauder, there is no way you'll be able to get enough storms out to do enough damage to stop them.. Protoss is FORCED to play the exact same way every game at a high level (where terrans arent stupid enough to lose to 1 voidray) Least zerg and terran have choices. Even terran with depot before rax has way more choices than protoss. Then your sentry micro has to be PERFECT just to come out even in any fights. One missed forcefield = GG GSL 2 shown how hard it is for any protoss to make it past any terran in high level games. If you bothered to read, you'd realize that I think it's absolutely retarded too that you need to get a robo. Unfortunately, my point is that the pros should know to do this and they don't. End of story. That's why they lose. And again with the forcefields. How do you miss them? | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
ie. IdrA lost to a korean in the GSL, therefore he is worse then that korean. Then they take this even futher and say "IdrA is worse than all koreans". That being said, there might just be a chance that there aren't very many strong protoss players in korea as compared to the number of good terran and zerg players. Also, losing to another player doesn't mean they are necessarily better then you, so again it could be randomness. In other words, Who the fuck knows. | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
On November 02 2010 09:30 slam wrote: Didn't he face Loner in the finals who was from China? EDIT: but yes, Korea did not have a large presence in either of these tournaments. Ah yeah my bad, but Loner was also a Ro16 GSL player which still proves my point. The level in the GSL is alot higher then "foreigner" tournaments. This is why Protoss are doing worse compared to europe/america I think. The differences between the races become more apparent at a higher lvl. | ||
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Gecko
United States519 Posts
On November 02 2010 09:32 Comeh wrote: I would imagine a lot of it has to do with probability. Unfortunately, a lot of people interpret probability as being a factual statement of causation rather then an act of chance. ie. IdrA lost to a korean in the GSL, therefore he is worse then that korean. Then they take this even futher and say "IdrA is worse than all koreans". That being said, there might just be a chance that there aren't very many strong protoss players in korea as compared to the number of good terran and zerg players. Also, losing to another player doesn't mean they are necessarily better then you, so again it could be randomness. In other words, Who the fuck knows. so true, who knows maybe a protoss hero will stomp everyone next time and show everyone how its  | ||
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
I reckon tho if Protoss get's its own creative hero ala Fruitdealer/Foxer then we'll see what it's capable of. | ||
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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
On November 02 2010 09:32 Logros wrote: Ah yeah my bad, but Loner was also a Ro16 GSL player which still proves my point. The level in the GSL is alot higher then "foreigner" tournaments. This is why Protoss are doing worse compared to europe/america I think. The differences between the races become more apparent at a higher lvl. I still dont think this few tournaments really prove anything. If protoss was insanely UP there should be no chance they could win those 2 tournaments. Im not saying protoss UP or OP. I just think hard to say anything out from this. I mean fruitdealer won last GSL and then zerg was buffed. There really is some variance involved. Its basicly like saying the player who win WSOP main event is the best player in the world, while thats almost always not the case. | ||
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Sorkoas
549 Posts
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Grond
599 Posts
On November 02 2010 03:47 K3Nyy wrote: Though I somewhat agree that Protoss players are less skilled than Terran/Zerg players, I feel it's that because Protoss is the weakest race, less players are more willing to play it. Yeh, kind of strange how people seldom make this connection. | ||
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slam
United States923 Posts
On November 02 2010 09:45 Sorkoas wrote: Someone explain to me why a shit load of cannons is better than real units against Zerg and why mass void rays/stalkers are good versus Terran and you will make it easier for me to take part of this discussion. .... the real question is, "why should I want you to take part in this discussion?" | ||
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Aus.Force
Australia1278 Posts
That is a substantial amount of variables that have not been used too regularly this GSL. Whether this is just their playstle, or whether they believe the units just aren't efficient enough is a matter of debate. One of my personal thoughts has been they are more concerned about comfort and knowledge and "safe play". By this i mean most protoss builds have looked generally the same every game. I believe the main reason for this has been due to the Observer. Obviously the Observer is an extremely important part of the protoss, as its their only mobile detection and safest scout unit. Because of this, we have nearly always seen Robo used in every build, and therefor Immortals and Colossi consistantly follow. They seem to figure the Colossi centered builds are the most easy to follow up with. Going stargate or archives means going away from the Robo style builds, and therefor possibly skipping an Observer altogether, because the first timing pushes are so cruicial at the moment as it almost invariable always determines the course of the rest of the match (generally speaking, and stereotypical for the most part, just an observation). Take NexGeniuses Blink stalker push last night for example. He went early archives for blink and skipped getting robo altogether. This in turn let the banshees get too far ahead and the game was over not long after. Genius will unlikely use the strat again because of this BO loss, and many stream watches will believe "well that build didn't work well, wont try that." Even laddering seems the same. Playing against Protoss on the ladder, 75%+ of the time we can expect to see 4gate or Xgate + robo tech. It is very rare to see any other builds unless cannons come first. In which if stop the cannon push early, or the P forges first for FE, in almost always turns back to the safe 4gate style play afterwards. So after my long as post, i guess i could sum up my opinion as being there is little variety in pro Protoss play, mainly due to security and comfort, and that the BO's leave tech changing to possibly be a little more challenging than the other races. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
If the zerg decides to go roaches, if you don't have immortals or imba forcefields you will lose if you just have your gateway units. Same goes with the marine/marauder stim and/or conc push, if you don't have imba forcefields or immortals they will steamroll over your zealots/stalkers. Now what happens if the zerg doesn't go roaches and we pumped out immortals? We are now far behind because those mutas will be coming soon and we won't have stargate or blink stalkers to react to them. Or what happens if the terran banshees and we don't have that robo bay with the observer? Also with how uber queens/marines are going early air units aren't that great. Sure getting phoenix against zerg can be great, but what if he ends up hitting you with lots of roaches, your ground army will just fall over. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 02 2010 09:31 dcberkeley wrote: If you bothered to read, you'd realize that I think it's absolutely retarded too that you need to get a robo. Unfortunately, my point is that the pros should know to do this and they don't. End of story. That's why they lose. And again with the forcefields. How do you miss them? That's the problem with Protoss. Limitations on choice of strategy and variance. Each tech is expensive and specialized, and similar concept applies for units as well. | ||
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
I actually played a 1700 Toss who 4gated me, which I saw coming from a mile away. He overcommited, I killed his stuff and countered and won. I played him again the very next game... and he tried 4gate again and I won. I wonder if he had exclusively 4gated his way to 1700 diamond. I find Protoss mid/late game incredibly difficult to deal with. Ill only win 30% of the time MAX against a Colussus/HT/Stalker ball. But they never get there because they always seem to like to overcommit to early attacks, or they expand without actually making units. Those that pressure early but dont overcommit, then expand, and generally play well are incredibly hard to beat. Nothing is scarier for me as a Z then a good Toss player. | ||
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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
On November 02 2010 09:59 SidianTheBard wrote: Pretty much what was said here I agree with. So many people are saying that Protoss players just need to evolve and learn how to play better but it's just more so zerg and terran have such strong early game units that the protoss is forced to get a robo bay to react against it. If the zerg decides to go roaches, if you don't have immortals or imba forcefields you will lose if you just have your gateway units. Same goes with the marine/marauder stim and/or conc push, if you don't have imba forcefields or immortals they will steamroll over your zealots/stalkers. Now what happens if the zerg doesn't go roaches and we pumped out immortals? We are now far behind because those mutas will be coming soon and we won't have stargate or blink stalkers to react to them. Or what happens if the terran banshees and we don't have that robo bay with the observer? Also with how uber queens/marines are going early air units aren't that great. Sure getting phoenix against zerg can be great, but what if he ends up hitting you with lots of roaches, your ground army will just fall over. But you can say that about all races, you have VRs, DTs, 4gate, 3gate robo etc. which also acts as a limitation for zerg and terran builds. I could write the exact same post just biased towards terran. The fact that you cant scout roaches or muta's but decide to commit to either immortals or blink stalkers str8 of the bat is just wrong. You can do a 3 gate expand and then build a robo if he goes roaches or blink stalkers if he doesnt have roaches. Also you dont need immortals vs terran. More often than not its skipped for str8 collusus. And dont give me a "what if he builds 2 raoches and then go muta" post. All races are limited by other races openings. May it be, banchee, DTs or whatever. I dont know if protoss are underpowered or not, but I do think its a bit too fast to yell underpowered when protoss just won EG and blizzcon. The reason that protoss arent doing well in GSL might aswell be because they havent been hydrated as it could be anything else. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
In blizzcon he used a very solid oppening that can deal with any early game pressure, and managed to drag all final games in the late game when he stomped Loner. Here he used a very good lost temple strat, then took a gamble, then used his safe strat (ok it can't deal with ANY early game pressure with that result) Then he tried void rays again. I think he was too confident (see his interviews) and underestimed rainbow who stomped tester in GSL 1, so big mistake to not take his TvP seriously. And I feel if he went for his "macro" opening he would have done better, or at least had better chance of winning than trying cheesy stuff. I feel inca could have done better  | ||
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