EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 15
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Rejuvenation
Canada128 Posts
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Resilient
United Kingdom1431 Posts
I mean, Protoss is effectively the only race that automatically loses should they make (potentially) a single error. Not getting that Robotics leaves you open to Banshee death and leaves you massively blind to what your opponent is doing. And once you have that Robotics, it's pretty counter-productive/inefficient to power another tech path. Not to mention that should your chosen tech path be countered (even blindly) you find yourself with a massively inflexible tech and a high probability of losing the game right there. In order for Protoss to become truly explorable, it needs to be easier to scout/be protected. This has been suggested before but putting the Observer on the Nexus and making it unlockable from a T2 structure would go a long way to opening the restrictions while still encouraging solid, safe play. | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On November 02 2010 06:20 Beyonder wrote: There is little a protoss can do to create this awe.. Boring race  Exactly. When I see "Foxers" Marine splits vs Banelings I go: "WTF? OMG! COOL!" When I see a Zerg do a Baneling Overlord drop I think the same. When I see a Zerg setup a surround with lings I think "OMG!". If the ling surround is scouted the Zerg just pulls away the lings (because they are ultra fast). If a Protoss tries to setup a similiar surround with Zealots they will be caught trying to run away (when seen). Maybe remove Charge and get the old Zealot Legspeed back? Out of combat speed seems more worth compared to incombat speed. Protoss doesnt have any "high speed" unit (except Phoenix) like Marines / Lings which enables them to do "OMG WTF?" micro moments. Maybe Blink Stalkers ... but isnt that too easy? I can do Blink stalkers - I could never do the Marine splits / ling surrounds. Oh I loved the way Tester survived the cheese (2 gate, early marine push). Those were the moments where I went into fanboy mode  But "normal play" doesnt seem really "fanboyish" worthy. | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
Terrans build their barracks->factory->starport pretty much every game anyway so it's just a matter of at most needing to switch a tech lab on if they want to build a different unit. Zerg can pump out X number of units right away when a tech building finishes from saved up larvae and switch back to other units just as easy. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
If the ling surround is scouted the Zerg just pulls away the lings (because they are ultra fast). If a Protoss tries to setup a similiar surround with Zealots they will be caught trying to run away (when seen). Maybe remove Charge and get the old Zealot Legspeed back? Out of combat speed seems more worth compared to incombat speed. I think Leg Speed and charge were merged into one. Charge gives Zealots 0.5 movespeed increase, maybe if it was alittle faster it would be nice, but Zealots already crap on Tanks and Thors lol. Maybe just make Zealots immune to slow while they have the charge buff on. | ||
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Pratoss
Canada201 Posts
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Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
Also from what i know i think sangho is relatively new to the game isn't he? He will definitley pose an even greater threat next season plus Huk is going over for next season. This might also be like starleague in BW which is pretty much dominated by Terran and Zerg players for some reason lol. still it's a real shame Tester didn't qualify for this GSL imagine a game between him and NaDa O.o | ||
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5543 Posts
sSKS was dominant for a while, but it was only because he was mechnically far superior to his opponents, not because he had good strategies. At least in my opinion. Prove me wrong if you will. Zerg players have Idra and Fruitdealer (and a couple others depending on who you talk to) Terran is kind of in the same boat, but not as bad as they've had some nice strategies developing and their race seems slightly stronger than the others, or at least it was. Who is protoss to follow? InCa? Genius? Sangho? Tester? There isnt much material on the top players like sangho and ssks, especially as of late. And inca and genius often times seem sub-par in comparison to other players, at least in some regards. We must wait until the "full package" comes along and shows us how its done. | ||
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:45 Zocat wrote: Exactly. When I see "Foxers" Marine splits vs Banelings I go: "WTF? OMG! COOL!" When I see a Zerg do a Baneling Overlord drop I think the same. When I see a Zerg setup a surround with lings I think "OMG!". If the ling surround is scouted the Zerg just pulls away the lings (because they are ultra fast). If a Protoss tries to setup a similiar surround with Zealots they will be caught trying to run away (when seen). Maybe remove Charge and get the old Zealot Legspeed back? Out of combat speed seems more worth compared to incombat speed. Protoss doesnt have any "high speed" unit (except Phoenix) like Marines / Lings which enables them to do "OMG WTF?" micro moments. Maybe Blink Stalkers ... but isnt that too easy? I can do Blink stalkers - I could never do the Marine splits / ling surrounds. Oh I loved the way Tester survived the cheese (2 gate, early marine push). Those were the moments where I went into fanboy mode But "normal play" doesnt seem really "fanboyish" worthy. Legspeed use to be my favorite upgrade because of the mobility they provided. Charge provides some, but id rather have overall fastest than anything. But this isnt really the place to discuss and fantasize about changes. This is mostly about discussing protoss in its current state. Honestly I been having a lot of success with forge and cannons, especially against Zerg. 15 nex or Forge FE with stalker/zealot support, continue to 2 stargate phoenix, finish off with Stalker/DT/Zealot, if they overdo detection merge DTs into archons. Somewhat similar to Bisu build in SC1. Vs Terran, I dunno, i suck at PvT x_x I played random for awhile, now im giving protoss full time a shot (I am a low diamond player). This is what i noticed from my playing each race in terms of micro/macro: Zerg - feel pressured for APM, but overall fine Protoss- feel very little pressure Terran- Often simply cant keep up with efficient macro and micro. Granted I still have a lot I can improve, but already I can feel the difference between races :/ | ||
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Zhou
United States832 Posts
I'd have to agree with some of the things already written in here; that late game isn't really the issue although I would say it could use a little creative boost. Warp prism is something I'd like to see (I believe Day[9] should capitalize this on a Funday Monday or something to make it more common) The reason why I think this is, is because protoss rely on a lot of tech in order to make their units stronger, and that tech usually revolves around new abilities. Blink, Charge, Storm are all expensive and are relatively late to get. A lot of protoss also has to rely on spells in order to combat well against terran or zerg. In terms of terran or zerg, they don't really have to use actual skills in the game (Not saying they lack skills as a player) in their play as much as protoss does. I guess in that sense, Protoss is probably the one who uses the tab-through units function more than the other two races. I'm not sure as to how make this fixable, other than messing with Protoss's early game and meshing its late tech into mid tech of some sort so that their tech isn't divided directly into three. Also, Mothership!! I really have to think what blizzard is thinking about its super-unit Mothership in its current state of use. Cause there hasn't been many. | ||
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slam
United States923 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:50 Pratoss wrote: because bisu hasn't switched yet lol, as much as I love Bisu, one week later Flash and the Dong are gonna switch and things will be back to normal. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:42 Dommk wrote: Monster investment, no way you could possibly do this without going through Colossus, but I think it is intended that way, but either way, it is still massive investment. Well, I DO think this would be do-able if you had the chance to omit the robo completely This is because then you could get charge-lots REALLY fast and ressource-wise charge-lots together with sentries are very affordable and you still should have gas left over to squeeze in the necessary HT-techs Against 1/1/1 you could do a stargate-phoenix opening and harass while slow-teching charge/storm. Tbh I do NOT want to get colossi vs terran except in very special circumstances, like almost pure marines. Unless you got like 4-5 of them they aren't really good vs marauders. Also DT-openings could work as "standard"-harassment-play (like hellions or banshees for terran vs zerg) too. Yes, yes you also needed the observer vs mines in BW. Nevertheless - just in theory - going for late observer wouldn't result in your immediate death. You'd be in a pretty awful position, yes, but one single cloaked banshee simply kills you in Sc2 no matter what. This is what's really bothering me, this is what makes PvT so incredibly stupid concerning the variety of possible openings. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:52 jimminy_kriket wrote: Haven't read the thread, but in my opinion its because we have no very dominant players to copy. sSKS was dominant for a while, but it was only because he was mechnically far superior to his opponents, not because he had good strategies. At least in my opinion. Prove me wrong if you will. Zerg players have Idra and Fruitdealer (and a couple others depending on who you talk to) Terran is kind of in the same boat, but not as bad as they've had some nice strategies developing and their race seems slightly stronger than the others, or at least it was. Who is protoss to follow? InCa? Genius? Sangho? Tester? There isnt much material on the top players like sangho and ssks, especially as of late. And inca and genius often times seem sub-par in comparison to other players, at least in some regards. We must wait until the "full package" comes along and shows us how its done. Genius and SSKS are some of the best players around. Genius won Blizzcon with pretty decisive wins. Artosis kept saying at the start of GSL how Genius was the favorite to win the entire tournament. SSKS still is a beast of a player, even Genius gave him a nod in his interview, he just got rolled by a banshee timing attack in his qualifiers. | ||
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FaTLiP
United States57 Posts
On November 02 2010 05:30 Widar wrote: And lolthors, lolcruisers, lolines, lolauders, lolshees, lolCVs are still not nefed... Oh wait, loltralisk, lol-lords, mutalols, lolings, banelols, and that damn lolingpool Oh yes, i can add lol in every unit too, bitch.. Void nerf wes way 2 harsh, thou ive never been much of a ray-user. Edit: Im not complaining at the race, id say its fairly (not entierly) balanced atm. Lol. Owned!!!! | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
Every Protoss player who's gone out seems to have either been shit, played badly, or just got outplayed on the day. | ||
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
What are the racial distributions at the beginning of qualifiers? seems like there are fewer protoss to begin with. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:54 sleepingdog wrote: Well, I DO think this would be do-able if you had the chance to omit the robo completely This is because then you could get charge-lots REALLY fast and ressource-wise charge-lots together with sentries are very affordable and you still should have gas left over to squeeze in the necessary HT-techs Against 1/1/1 you could do a stargate-phoenix opening and harass while slow-teching charge/storm. Tbh I do NOT want to get colossi vs terran except in very special circumstances, like almost pure marines. Unless you got like 4-5 of them they aren't really good vs marauders. Also DT-openings could work as "standard"-harassment-play (like hellions or banshees for terran vs zerg) too. Yes, yes you also needed the observer vs mines in BW. Nevertheless - just in theory - going for late observer wouldn't result in your immediate death. You'd be in a pretty awful position, yes, but one single cloaked banshee simply kills you in Sc2 no matter what. This is what's really bothering me, this is what makes PvT so incredibly stupid concerning the variety of possible openings. How are you going to sustain your self with Sentry/Zealot? That tech path I just played out takes 4mins worth of gas of a single base, you add Zealot charge in there and that is another 1min's worth of gas. Every sentry cost 0.5mins~ worth of gas. The build is just too heavy on gas, maybe Zealot stalker but Zealot Sentry would be quite difficult to do while teching to HT. You need a viable build that allows you to two base while getting it, but you can't two base with charge lots and sentries alone, you need a high tier unit that is accessible to fend off Terran/Zerg, the only real option is Colossus, they have amazing bang for their buck, but eventually when Viking count gets too high you have to tech out of them | ||
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slam
United States923 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:53 Zhou wrote: Warp prism is something I'd like to see (I believe Day[9] should capitalize this on a Funday Monday or something to make it more common) LOL. I don't think that Funday Monday plays a very large part in shifting the metagame sadly. | ||
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Slakter
Sweden1947 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:58 slam wrote: LOL. I don't think that Funday Monday plays a very large part in shifting the metagame sadly. Yeah it is, for instance the No Queen-day was actaully really helpful and has spawned a lot of 3hatch/2base-builds with lair before second queen. | ||
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