EPTI hope I'm wrong, however, there are 2 more expansions.
[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 13
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
I hope I'm wrong, however, there are 2 more expansions. | ||
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StormsInJuly
Sweden165 Posts
On November 02 2010 07:33 HowardRoark wrote: Well, in my opionion Protoss problem is that they are just too easy to play... I disagree with this, protoss have the hardest macro and least margin for error. Their vital units are extremely hard to keep alive, and getting nailed by a single EMP loses you the game. The protoss that get eliminated I think could have survived if they'd played better, but a single mistake costs you the game. Warpgates are imho harder to master than queen inject, and chronoboost is yet another macro mechanic that nobody manages perfectly in the lategame... There's a lot of build order losses for protoss too, especially with sgate/templar tech vs cloaking units, but i expect good players to be able to deal with that | ||
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yandere991
Australia394 Posts
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SwaY-
Dominican Republic463 Posts
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robertdinh
803 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:02 SwaY- wrote: Maps will fix protoss, only when maps permit going to late game every game like bw. It isn't good balance when races aren't relatively equal at all stages of the game. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2013 Posts
mmmm | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
Protoss will adapt by the next tournament. But It feels like there are very few options. People keep screaming at Protoss to experiment in this thread, and I have. But just count the units Protoss can get in the first 6 minutes. How many can he get with a FE. What unit haven't you seen? What unit has an ability that can change the game if used correctly, but isn't already constantly used? IMO, protoss players will adapt, but it will not be by introducing some mysterious unused unit that everyone thinks is worthless. Nor will it be by microing some protoss unit in a previously unseen way. It will be by looking at other players builds in replays and trying attacks at different timings. Of course, Toss doesn't have many options when it comes to harassment so how long will those timings last? | ||
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Purpose2
England187 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
Missed a FF ? You dead. One EMP ? You dead. Failed to scout ? You dead ( 2456789 dumb allins possible for T and Z ). You don't have the perfect army composition ? You dead. etc... the list goes on. Played protoss during the beta but i have switched to terran because PvT is a joke. | ||
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JoeSchmoe
Canada2058 Posts
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Elevenst
Canada249 Posts
edit- at everyone saying good players don't play protoss you've gotta be kidding me some of the absolute best players play toss tester,genius,sang ho(diamond in the rough right now obviously), and a ton of other amazing players ie.hong un. | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
just seems like the toss players get taken off guard by a lot of stuff. zenith for example seemed entirely unprepared for roach play in his scrap station game. tester apparently lost to banshee play in his qualifier. i can't remember which protoss, but one of them messed up his 4x sentry build by missing FFs on his ramp. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On November 02 2010 07:33 HowardRoark wrote: Bisu vs spider mines lol didn't know this...I can't even look that fast On November 02 2010 07:52 yandere991 wrote:Also whenever the protoss doesn't open up with robo the audience writes the resulting win or loss(more likely) as cheese or "all in" play. That by itself says something about our options. This is something so very true. It took a while to "convince" ppl that a Void Ray opening vs terran can be done ending up with a "standard"-play. If you think about it it's kinda funny. On the one hand some people (mostly zerg/terran) complain that protoss are narrow-minded and always do the same stuff. But when some player tries something different - like ogsMC did - and gets owned it's always dubbed as stupid, weird cheese. Please, then tell us, what ARE the other "standard"-strategies that we have been unable to discover yet? It was mentioned earlier, but a huge problem of Protoss right now is the colossus. It's a super-strong unit, but a unit that doesn't scale with skill, which is really important. I'd say on my better days I have the exact same colossus-micro as NEXGenius. Meaning, I'd position them correctly just far enough behind to still shoot at stuff trapped with forcefields. This is something VERY bad. A pro-gamer simply can NOT do "anything" micro-wise with colossi. Blizz can't give them any additional "ability" or they would be rofl-imba. But colossi can't kite, they can't be used for some awsome drop/harass...they are just stupid a-move units that only need to be positioned correctly. I'd even go as far as to say that moving back colossi that are being hit is a bad idea. Why? Because the additional DPS - even the last few hits - are sometimes worth more because your gateway-units won't get cleaned up. Saving one colossus is a huge DPS-loss and because these things are so damn slow they mostly end up dieing anyways. I hate them, I truly hate them. Their mere existence prevents blizz from buffing other protoss units. | ||
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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
It's stupid to suggest that it's simply because the players weren't on par with their competition that the protoss are losing in GSL..because so much of that (including timings, unit compositions, harrass) is what protoss AREN'T on par with other races. You want to know if a race is balanced? There's an easy test: consider whether someone like Tester or NEXgenius would have gotten further in GSL with other races. I seriously don't doubt that with Terran or Zerg, the best protoss would have made it to Ro8. And that's your problem. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:05 Boblion wrote: Protoss are doing bad because if you make a single mistake you are dead. Missed a FF ? You dead. One EMP ? You dead. Failed to scout ? You dead ( 2456789 dumb allins possible for T and Z ). You don't have the perfect army composition ? You dead. etc... the list goes on. Played protoss during the beta but i have switched to terran because PvT is a joke. I hate this type of cynicism, but I also hate how true what you said is -___- | ||
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Shanba
Scotland144 Posts
For example, people keep saying that marauders are imba. I don't think that makes sense as a statement. You can't pick a single unit and say that it's too powerful, as by doing that you're ignoring the intricacies of the race as a whole. For example, banshees are an extremely powerful unit that can do a whole load of damage, and it may be that terran with banshees is difficult to beat (not making any judgement calls here, this is a hypothetical). So people complain to blizz and blizz says "yes, we're aware terran is op". However, when they release the patch, it does nothing to the banshee - instead, it reduces marines hp to 10, removes marauders, makes siege tanks have a 30 second sieging animation and increases the thor's cost to 4000/1000. I guarantee you if they did that then banshees would suddenly not be imba any more regardless of the fact that nothing had been done to the unit itself. Units on their own can't be imba, and race balance can be achieved indirectly by nerfing and buffing strange things. There's also stuff going around like the idea that toss has no cutesy clever things they can use. I think that's a symptom of imbalance more than anything. Remember when zergs used to get told "USE NYDUS WORMS/OVIE DROPS BRO"? Truth is, there was never any way for them to take the time to tech up to these options, no opportunity for them to split their attention long enough to get the stuff necessary. Since the buff, however, you see a lot more zergs doing that kind of stuff (at least, from what I've seen in streams/gsl). It's analogous to what that toss guy said above - he always needs to use the robo bay for some other vital unit, and never has time to get a warp prism out. Similarly with dts. If toss is having to use all their stuff just to stay alive for most of the game, it's hardly surprising that they're not able to use their "cool" abilities. On a slight tangent, I was extremely skeptical (as a terran player  ) at the last patch which had the overarching theme of nerfing terran harass into the dust. It seemed to me that terran needed that harass to keep up with the zerg economically - with no harassment options, it's basically gg for t. Watching players like + Show Spoiler +idra roflstomping gon mvp and especially foxer So from a terran perspective, again, the idea that toss might be getting buffed is terrifying. Storm just feels impossible to deal with - sure, emp does more overall damage but toss units are also beefier, plus it can't be cast repeatedly. One storm on a marine who's already taken the drugs? It's very likely that that marine will die no matter how good you are at moving out of storm radius. Plus, since you're normally moving in one direction, the guys at the opposite side of the storm move all the way through it and take lots and lots of damage. So a storm is basically guaranteed to kill a number of marines straight up, and that's a hit on the dps of the terran ball. What's more, when you're storm dodging you're not shooting, which is bad for two reasons - the obvious one that more of your guys shooting is better, and the slightly more esoteric one that you're losing stimmed time. If stim runs out before you kill 'em, that's bad as you neither want to fight unstimmed or eat two stims in a fight. Normally it lasts long enough not to matter, I suppose, but still. Overall, then, storm just feels impossible to beat. Of course, it generally doesn't get that far. The truth is that good players will abuse any mechanic they can to pick up a win, and hence terran players will of course try and crush the toss before he gets going. I think that's p. much inevitable. Right now, TvZ is the most exciting matchup, and I think that's partly because it's pretty well balanced at the moment, with both races having opportunities to showcase extreme skill as they're not forced into just building up meat to survive. I thought there were glimpses of excitement in PvZ too, with the + Show Spoiler + sangho vs phoenixwerra match - the way he controlled those phoenixes, ran a threadbare defence and just generally the feel of those games was so awesome. But since then, we've had like no PvZs which is so gdamn frustrating. | ||
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AssuredVacancy
United States1167 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:05 Boblion wrote: Protoss are doing bad because if you make a single mistake you are dead. Missed a FF ? You dead. One EMP ? You dead. Failed to scout ? You dead ( 2456789 dumb allins possible for T and Z ). You don't have the perfect army composition ? You dead. etc... the list goes on. Played protoss during the beta but i have switched to terran because PvT is a joke. I'd say compared to zerg, protoss is FAR more forgiving when you failed to scout/have the wrong unit composition. At least protoss's T1 mix handles everything well. | ||
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Elevenst
Canada249 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:08 taintmachine wrote: *edited out my balance thing. just seems like the toss players get taken off guard by a lot of stuff. zenith for example seemed entirely unprepared for roach play in his scrap station game. tester apparently lost to banshee play in his qualifier. i can't remember which protoss, but one of them messed up his 4x sentry build by missing FFs on his ramp. sang ho missed the ff's (babybyebye) | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On November 02 2010 08:05 Boblion wrote: Protoss are doing bad because if you make a single mistake you are dead. Missed a FF ? You dead. One EMP ? You dead. Failed to scout ? You dead ( 2456789 dumb allins possible for T and Z ). You don't have the perfect army composition ? You dead. etc... the list goes on. Played protoss during the beta but i have switched to terran because PvT is a joke. This isn't really much of an exaggeration either, it's almost impossible to play from behind as Protoss. It's like the game was balanced around you having a certain composition of units to stand a chance in a given situation and any deviation spells doom. You don't have the beefy units of terran or the virtually free bunkers, incredible PFs etc to hide behind, let alone repair and heal. You don't have the larva counts mid game like zerg if you lose your army. Maybe we're still waiting for the FD or Foxer of Protoss to show us how to do it, but it seems like the poor design of Protoss is kind of rearing its head. Not to mention having the absolute worst mirror match. It's such a bleh race compared to the manliness of BW Protoss. What's manly about teetering on a knife's edge in every match up? | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2013 Posts
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