EPT[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 12
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xiyuema
87 Posts
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
edit: again, to emphasize, it's the PLAYERS not the races that make protoss not make it to top 4. i didn't read the thread before i posted beyond the first page just because i knew it would be a bunch of people comparing races, but seriously guys, it has nothing to do with races and if you actually paid attention to how both tournaments went you would understand this. there were sooo many toss in GSL 1, and terran as well, and yet a zerg won. zerg won because the player picking the zerg race was the best player in the end. this time, the toss weren't so lucky, the zerg were, and the toss players didn't play as well as the other races and so they were out. it'd be one thing if there were no protoss by round 32 and 16 or something, but it's completely coincidental for 4 people to not be protoss at the end of a tournament. | ||
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_Darwin_
United States2374 Posts
On November 02 2010 07:06 WickedBit wrote: For example if a terran goes cloaked banshee he is well off since going that route has opened all other tech routes for him and if that attack fails he can just switch around the tech lab and start producing seige tanks or something else. Terran also gets bunkers to defend in case of failed tech attempts. Yeah like when TLO opened banshee against Sang-ho. Oh wait he lost in like 5 minutes. | ||
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Nizaris
Belgium2230 Posts
On November 02 2010 06:13 MrMotionPicture wrote: Just wait for HuK in GSL3. :D He won't even qualify. You heard it here first. There's a pretty good reason so few foreigners are doing well in GSL. | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
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Mellotron
United States329 Posts
Protoss as a race in SC2 might not be perfect, but its too soon to know everything the race is capable of. Expect this kind of uncertainty in SC2 for years to come, in all races, and probably most of the units and strats. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On November 02 2010 06:18 AidanS wrote: Toss has so many problems and all their builds can be summed up by x gate + robo into blah. Gateway units are totally reliant on super force fields to survive any fight which shuts down any early aggression because your ramp is the only area to make low numbers of FF effective. One bad FF early is gg. Toss dont have any low cost, low hp, high dps units. This makes their harass and drops wimpy. They can't take advantage of mobility or positioning to protect fragile units with high dps. Toss are super reliant on the colossus and the templar to win a fight because only aoe can pull them equal when the core units of their army are super crappy. The colossus is stupidly easy to hard counter. Templar take too long and cost too much especially because it doesn't give you another usable unit on that tech path like the immortal is for the robo. Toss lack solid air control strategys. Which leads to massing of stalkers. Which leads to losing to any solid combat unit because stalkers are a jack of all trades master of none unit. Toss upgrades are kinda crappy when compared to other factions. Shields means defencive upgrades are split. Ok they dont have a ranged/melee/vehicle/infantry split instead but if you are sticking purely to one type like pure mech play or MMM it doesnt matter much. Toss upgrades also do cutesy shit like blink and charge for their core units. Terran stim and shields are straight up good dps and life upgrades. Zerg get dps for lings and range upgrades for hydras which is a dps increase in effect because more units can fire. Toss have the hardest time defending expansions because they are so immobile and tied to their slow colossi/templar. Terran have it easy with PF and MMM mobility. Zerg also have great mobility off creep and amazing mobility on creep. But frankly with all these problems protoss are still winning matches because AOE can be so frickin good. The current balance around the strength of FF, collossi and HTs are holding back protoss. Because they can turn a fight so quickly it would be dangerous to make them viable without using them heavily. Checking out some old Bisu Replays from BW and i noticed that Zealots were really FAST and Archons were pretty quick too. | ||
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PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
On November 02 2010 07:06 xiyuema wrote: bring a ex-sc1 toss pro in and we'll see how awesome toss is you mean like sSKS and ByebyeBabye? to be honest, the GSL is a bad tournament to observer if a matchup is balanced or not, simple reason beeing that replays are not downloadable and we limited to what the casters want us to see. without replays, it is impossible to realy see what was going on. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
On November 02 2010 07:18 Raiden X wrote: Checking out some old Bisu Replays from BW and i noticed that Zealots were really FAST and Archons were pretty quick too. Werent they with charge ? xD | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
now ppl just assume that this is the same in sc2. but its not. in sc2 T has the more mobile army (marauders, medivacs) and P has the more cost efficient but immobile lategame army. this means that T has to have more bases and punish P if he plays too greedy. thats quite the opposite... if P learns this and stays on less bases while opting for superior techs and strong timing attacks, then we will have certainly more solid pvt matchup which leads to more overall protoss success. | ||
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NewteN
United States179 Posts
On November 02 2010 06:53 toadstool wrote: To the people saying that Protoss players aren't good enough, that's just blatantly wrong. Does it mean that better players just naturally pick Terran as their race? The problem lies with the amount of skill required to play Protoss at the very top level, especially in the Korean scene where they practice particular builds just on this one map. For a Protoss to play at a top level takes a lot more skill and larger luck factor than for a Zerg or Terran. Your second paragraph argues against your first. | ||
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Tanatos
United States381 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
Im talking about their normal speed with the speed upgrade. Charge makes SC2 zealots a little faster, but their real speed comes from charge. In BW they were just REALLY FAST. To the point that i say its better then charge. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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HowardRoark
1146 Posts
I am going to try to explain why I believe this, so read it all before temp-banning me  Zerg require a ton of APM to play, and some people that reach low level diamond with Protoss in a week or too would never be able to leave bronze if they tried Zerg, and, since the nerfs to Terran they have started to require a #¤%#load of skill to be able to beat Zerg. When the game was new all three races started to move towards their each individual skill cap, and while Protoss perhaps have reached it already, Zerg and Terran keeps improving and improving, and just like in Brood War this is starting to show, but the problem with SC2 this was obvious much sooner than in Brood War. The game was balanced around a completely different level than what the Korean Terrans and Zergs are starting to reach now, and since the game was somewhat balanced (Protoss is still superior in the low levels due to their simplicity), Protoss is now starting to lag behind since they can't improve much further. Keep in mind that in Brood War you actually had some really APM demanding things to do even as P, like Reaver Shuttle micro, carpet storms, Zealot bombs etc (I could come up with better examples another day), and still, showing after 12 years, Protoss is too weak at top level but not at all too weak at the lower levels. (I read P is the only choice for pro BGH )But... in SC2 Blizzard even gave P autoshooting Phoenix and nothing at all to master in the way of micro. Protoss players talk with awe about "insane Forcefields", but that is nothing compared to the resources a player like Foxer can utilize against Zerg with his marine micro. Protoss does not need stronger units; Protoss needs units that is hard to master so that at the lower levels these strategies are useless until a really skilled player finally make it useful, or else, Blizzard can not balance the game out, since that would make P too strong at lower levels. The thing is, that most of the time you watch a high level game involving a P (and by that I mean top Korean level, not MLG Raleigh), it always seem as though it is up to his Z or T opponent to play good enough to beat the P, and not that the P was good enough to use his skills to overcome his opponent, since at that level they have almost or perhaps already, reached the skill ceiling for the P race. The only way I believe it is possible for Blizzard to make P somewhat playable at the highest levels without completely screwing with the casual players balance, is to design P units that require a really talented player to master, so the skill ceiling can be moved upwards. Also, since I guess this skill cap is obvious to the players that are at the top, most of them wont even pick Protoss to begin with, since they are aware of this, and also the less talented players will opt for P, since, yes, they are just too easy. Players like Cool would be stupid going P, since they would surpass the abilities of the race too quickly. Even TLO mentioned that he liked Zerg since it was "almost like SupCom, you can keep improving and improving and you always need more and more APM". I wonder what his verdict is against P... Protoss have been the newbie-race in both Brood war and in SC2, but I think that with SC2 Blizzard went too far. They are liks drugs, quick and easy to enjoy, but really drags you down in the long run. What Blizzard should start with is to remove the silly autoshooting Phoenix, and make them behave exactly the same or a bit better with masterful micro control. That could be a way to start to balance it out without totally screwing the low level balance, and no, Blizzard can't only balance the game for the top Korean tier, since that would then make the game unplayable for anyone opting for a fun game of SC2 anytime they faced a P. If I still did not manage to express my point good enough (I believe I might have not, I am tired today), I will add 3 examples from youtube showing what I am trying to say. And no, this is not "Insane Forcefield control!", but something that actually require pro skill to pull off. Bisu vs spider mines Stork's reaver This is not Phoenix | ||
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Chaos
United States772 Posts
But overall I think tosses are struggling a little bit right now due to just general protoss playstyle. It seems like toss is having a hard time with good MM pushes and good roach pushes. Personally I think a lot of it has to do with current protoss trends and the fact that some builds are rarely used because they can get so blatantly hard countered by the opponent. + Show Spoiler + something like 3 gate blink stalker vs a cloak banshee opening | ||
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slam
United States923 Posts
On November 02 2010 07:31 FabledIntegral wrote: Well this topic in itself seems to be a spoiler for the GSL for me... really you couldn't wait to make this topic? :-/. lol. Yeah. He really did a poor job hiding the spoiler with the title. | ||
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CurLy[]
United States759 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On November 02 2010 07:34 CurLy[] wrote: I think toss is gonna struggle even more once players like Foxer show us how to deal with aoe units :< Mass Marines vs Collosi | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
On November 02 2010 07:33 HowardRoark wrote: Well, in my opionion Protoss problem is that they are just too easy to play... I am going to try to explain why I believe this, so read it all before temp-banning me Zerg require a ton of APM to play, and some people that reach low level diamond with Protoss in a week or too would never be able to leave bronze if they tried Zerg, and, since the nerfs to Terran they have started to require a #¤%#load of skill to be able to beat Zerg. When the game was new all three races started to move towards their each individual skill cap, and while Protoss perhaps have reached it already, Zerg and Terran keeps improving and improving, and just like in Brood War this is starting to show, but the problem with SC2 this was obvious much sooner than in Brood War. The game was balanced around a completely different level than what the Korean Terrans and Zergs are starting to reach now, and since the game was somewhat balanced (Protoss is still superior in the low levels due to their simplicity), Protoss is now starting to lag behind since they can't improve much further. Keep in mind that in Brood War you actually had some really APM demanding things to do even as P, like Reaver Shuttle micro, carpet storms, Zealot bombs etc (I could come up with better examples another day), and still, showing after 12 years, Protoss is too weak at top level but not at all too weak at the lower levels. (I read P is the only choice for pro BGH )But... in SC2 Blizzard even gave P autoshooting Phoenix and nothing at all to master in the way of micro. Protoss players talk with awe about "insane Forcefields", but that is nothing compared to the resources a player like Foxer can utilize against Zerg with his marine micro. Protoss does not need stronger units; Protoss needs units that is hard to master so that at the lower levels these strategies are useless until a really skilled player finally make it useful, or else, Blizzard can not balance the game out, since that would make P too strong at lower levels. The thing is, that most of the time you watch a high level game involving a P (and by that I mean top Korean level, not MLG Raleigh), it always seem as though it is up to his Z or T opponent to play good enough to beat the P, and not that the P was good enough to use his skills to overcome his opponent, since at that level they have almost or perhaps already, reached the skill ceiling for the P race. The only way I believe it is possible for Blizzard to make P somewhat playable at the highest levels without completely screwing with the casual players balance, is to design P units that require a really talented player to master, so the skill ceiling can be moved upwards. Also, since I guess this skill cap is obvious to the players that are at the top, most of them wont even pick Protoss to begin with, since they are aware of this, and also the less talented players will opt for P, since, yes, they are just too easy. Players like Cool would be stupid going P, since they would surpass the abilities of the race too quickly. Even TLO mentioned that he liked Zerg since it was "almost like SupCom, you can keep improving and improving and you always need more and more APM". I wonder what his verdict is against P... Protoss have been the newbie-race in both Brood war and in SC2, but I think that with SC2 Blizzard went too far. They are liks drugs, quick and easy to enjoy, but really drags you down in the long run. What Blizzard should start with is to remove the silly autoshooting Phoenix, and make them behave exactly the same or a bit better with masterful micro control. That could be a way to start to balance it out without totally screwing the low level balance, and no, Blizzard can't only balance the game for the top Korean tier, since that would then make the game unplayable for anyone opting for a fun game of SC2 anytime they faced a P. If I still did not manage to express my point good enough (I believe I might have not, I am tired today), I will add 3 examples from youtube showing what I am trying to say. And no, this is not "Insane Forcefield control!", but something that actually require pro skill to pull off. Bisu vs spider mines Stork's reaver This is not Phoenix this ... plus if we consider bw, MOST like every big tournament P doesnt win and I dont think there is any P bonjwa .. | ||
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