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On November 02 2010 18:02 QuantumTheory wrote:Idk how people can say that it's because P doesn't have a "hero" that they aren't doing well right now. Try being that hero when you have to be INSANELY better than your opponent in the upper echelons of play.
Protoss are doing extremely well actually. GSL is the only place they aren't. You have to be insanely better? What exactly is this based off? They're probably the simplest race in the game. This thread is pure whining now, which is a shame because the start was actually intelligent.
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On November 02 2010 08:19 Deathstar wrote:
LOL? What part of instant army + chronoboost makes protoss macro challenging? And don't seriously put larva inject and instantly warpgating units on the same league. It's insulting.
Managing warpgates plus chronoboost is harder than inject, I guess you will have to be insulted. It's all the other stuff Zerg has to to do in addition to inject that make their macro harder.
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On November 02 2010 18:06 Sniffy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:02 QuantumTheory wrote:Idk how people can say that it's because P doesn't have a "hero" that they aren't doing well right now. Try being that hero when you have to be INSANELY better than your opponent in the upper echelons of play. Protoss are doing extremely well actually. GSL is the only place they aren't. You have to be insanely better? What exactly is this based off? They're probably the simplest race in the game. This thread is pure whining now, which is a shame because the start was actually intelligent.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, try microing your precious gas-heavy as hell army while having to warp in units individually....
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On November 02 2010 13:05 abrasion wrote:
I feel like I've picked the shit race again! Undead fan to Protoss fan, why didn't I back Orc and Terran? :/
Just because Protoss isn't doing well in the tournament where the best of the best compete, doesn't mean that Protoss is suddenly totally underpowered at lower skill level.
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On November 02 2010 16:52 Brian333 wrote:
Well it makes sense that a lot of former Protoss players switched to Terran. Especially ITR. ITR used to be a harass intensive micro oriented player that favored drops and spell casters (like his "mentor," IntoTheRain). Switching to Terran in SC2 allowed him to better translate his style over into the sequel. I don't really remember Clare's playstyle in SC1.
As for warp prism play... It just really seems underwhelming outside of Immortal drops. Purely as a transport unit, it's better than the Medivac and Overlord. The problem is the "gimmick" ability is counter-intuitive to drop-harass. That and per-cargo-slot and per-cost, Protoss damage-dealing is just outright pathetic compared to T and Z.
One of the important parts about harass is not trading your drop units because that diminishes the cost-effectiveness of harass. Medivac drops have great synergy because they transport the units, keep them alive as they stim and harass, reload everything, and then gtfo. Warp Prisms have an issue in this regard because they drop, allow you to change forms, warp in, and then when you leave, you kind of have to leave behind whatever incredibly expensive units you warped in. It's just not cost effective to drop and lose hundreds of minerals worth of units because you can't run away. Sure, just drop, harass, and reload without warping in but this brings me to the next point.
Per cargo-space, Protoss DPS is horrible outside of a handful of units and this severely caps the efficiency of drop play because you just can't deal enough damage quickly to justify the risk.
2 marines deal more dps than 1 zealot even without stim. With stim, it's not even close.
1 marauder deals slightly less than 1 stalker against non-armored and severely out damages stalkers against armored. With stim, the marauder blows the stalker out of the water in both.
Immortals deal good dps against armored, HTs are great against workers because of storm and Archon splash, and DTs shred units apart.
The issue is a Warp Prism loaded with 2 immortals is 700 minerals and 200 gas. 4 HT is 400/600. 4 DT is 700/500. You lose any of those in transit and you'll be crying yourself to sleep that night. Lose it in retreat after harass and unless you did massive damage, the drop was pointless and you might actually even be behind. Risk / Reward is just not worth it. In comparison, 8 marine drop = 500/100. 4 marauder is 500/200.
So really, Warp Prisms are just not effective as harass. I could see them used more frequently to gain positioning advantages in mid-field engagements but outside of NexGenius, I haven't really seen it done. It's just incredibly situational.
This guy hit a very good point!! Giving Protoss early harass options would be really good for the race. This combined with the Zealot being a strange tier 1 unit. If you equaled the first combat unit allowing 8 zealots in the opponents base would be tough to stop but 4 is managable. Protoss has no real unit that is scary in a drop outside of HT which is usually 3rd base play. So your harassing yes but not early-mid which the other races can do much more easily. I will say I have been loving DTs more Even if the opponent has a scan they are still annoying that is later game harass though.
I think the tech tree is the problem for Protoss honestly the Robo is as necessary as the Cyber Core is.
Protoss Tech Tree(in current state of play)
Gateway->Core->Robo Facility
I
v
---------------- I --------------------
I I I
v v v
Stargate Tech Robo bay Twilight Tech
Im not saying that you can't get to the other trees without the robo facility but the robo is so necessary for the scouting information. You can use hallucinate but that early every unit and every FF is critical.
I think we need to get past the robo observer requirement in all of our builds but there is one thing really preventing that and thats Banshees. Against zerg you need it to ensure your going the right tech path.
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On November 02 2010 18:06 Sniffy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:02 QuantumTheory wrote:Idk how people can say that it's because P doesn't have a "hero" that they aren't doing well right now. Try being that hero when you have to be INSANELY better than your opponent in the upper echelons of play. Protoss are doing extremely well actually. GSL is the only place they aren't. You have to be insanely better? What exactly is this based off? They're probably the simplest race in the game. This thread is pure whining now, which is a shame because the start was actually intelligent.
What defines simple? At your bronze level play perhaps protoss is the simplest race. Have you ever tried holding an expansion against a mindless mouthbreathing 3 rax terran? It takes tons more skill to hold that off than to just mass units off 3 rax.
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Lol.. excluding idra, Huk is owning it up in NA, and hes a protoss. Besides, i think its soley for the fact that Tester didnt get into gsl2, thats why theres not many strong tosses. I mean i would love to see a high level play between idra/fruitdealer/checkprime vs tester/inca/nexgenius which we have been lacking to see
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Pretty much everything that was said...
- Banshee = robo or get ready to throw the dice and hope there's no banshee in your mineral line at the 8 minute mark.
- DTs / Templars on different buildings
- 0 viable harassment due to 9 range vikings and everything being faster than a warp prism without spending 100 freaking gas to upgrade it (and still slower than mutas)
- Stalkers doing less dps than an old lady's purse smash
- Stupidly expensive upgrades on different tech paths that seem to never be up in time, not to be aggressive but to not die.
- Most high tech units DTs / Carriers / Void rays / Phoenix / mothership don't actually integrate that well into the toss army without Colossus / HTs to deal with the masses of tier 1/2 that zerg and terran can throw at you.
Best fixes i could see would be merge templar archives and dark shrine and reduce the cost / build time of observers to minimize the amount of time spent using your robo for a unit that doesn't actually fight for you. (although the info is probably invaluable).
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well, yes, protoss players tend to cheese. especially vs terran. but the question is, why are they doing this? why are they going for hidden techs? why are they going for risky expansions? well, the option is quite simple; going for a macro game. yes, koreans are quite cheesy in the first place, but the cheesiness of protoss is so frequent, that it is standard.
especially this gets appearant the further a tournament like this goes. in both quarterfinals of gsl, protoss did horribly. they always chose to cheese or go for a risky expansion. the question is, why are they doing this? the obvious answer would be, that no protoss is confident enough to win a macro game. now there is the question wether are they plain bad....all together or are they just right and they really wouldnt stand a chance.
the pvz in this season were quite poor, almost every match boiled down to either a canonrush or a canon expo followed by a roach rush. it was disgusting. pvt were quite the same. either 1 gate core fe or some one-base cheese (watch hopetorture vs genius for a awesome example).
so what happened? i basically think that terran and zerg just developped new, better ways to play their race. protoss on the other hand has been pretty much the same shit since beta period. but its not like the protoss are lazy, actually the protoss is the race that exploits their abilities at its best.
just think about it. what is more frequent? a protoss forgetting to add hts or a terran not caring about adding ghosts? you know the answer.
also, protoss players are doing everything to gain as much mapcontrol as possible.
question, how often do you see sensor towers used???? right, never.
also both races have great harrass abilities, be it little things like zerglings or contaminate or big things like nydus or baneling drops into the eco.
or just benshees or drops with 2 medivacs instasniping a nexus.
protoss has nothing to compete.
therefore protoss has pretty much boiled down to cheesing, to get somewhat of an advantage.
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On November 02 2010 18:13 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:06 Sniffy wrote:On November 02 2010 18:02 QuantumTheory wrote:Idk how people can say that it's because P doesn't have a "hero" that they aren't doing well right now. Try being that hero when you have to be INSANELY better than your opponent in the upper echelons of play. Protoss are doing extremely well actually. GSL is the only place they aren't. You have to be insanely better? What exactly is this based off? They're probably the simplest race in the game. This thread is pure whining now, which is a shame because the start was actually intelligent. I've said it before and I'll say it again, try microing your precious gas-heavy as hell army while having to warp in units individually....
Don't worry, he probably just queues multiple units to compensate for his (lack of) macro. It is debatable whether warpgates actually dish out units in the long run due to the lack of queuing and even with 5s shaved off compared to gateways, there will always be a margin of delay to bring in units. The main advantage is the fact that it follows a "pay and warp as you go" mentality as opposed to most "pay and receive later".
Not to make a whine out of this thread I do find that Protoss units are a quite cost-ineffective relative to their Terran and Zerg counterparts, not to mention the gas-heavy, time-consuming tech routes and the fact that opening with robo is pretty much mandatory. At my level it doesn't concern me too much since it's mainly just work on your fundamentals and worry about balance when you reach top tier.
Edit: And yes, what Brian333 said about the viability of drops is absolutely true. The burst damage of Protoss units from a drop cannot be compared against not to mention the "warp in harass" just doesn't cut it in terms of benefit:cost ratio.
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I think a patch that addresses the main protoss problems, such as early scouting and the way protoss is forced to go robo and how its tech tree is so gas and time intensive. I'm not giving any answers, but I'm sure blizz can find them. It shouldn't interfere with team games or regular ladder too much, but even the playing field at the highest skill-levels.
Zerg has had their patch, and it helped. Now it is protoss turn.
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On November 02 2010 18:19 koolaid1990 wrote:
Lol.. excluding idra, Huk is owning it up in NA, and hes a protoss. Besides, i think its soley for the fact that Tester didnt get into gsl2, thats why theres not many strong tosses. I mean i would love to see a high level play between idra/fruitdealer/checkprime vs tester/inca/nexgenius which we have been lacking to see
Yeah HuK owns up NA , except when SeleCt, qxc and idra play. (wait what?)
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Terran,
1:1a,
2: t
3: *SUPER HARD MACRO PART BEWARE* 3 DDDDDD (5ss if they are REALLY good)
4. repeat from step one.
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The observer is the real problem. It's such a great unit as it's cloaked but it's so valuable if lost. My idea (probably is OP) is to make observer a researchable tech on the core for sentries. Basically you research it right after warpgates, and it the sentry costs 100 energy and lasts for 60 seconds. Sentries usually have too much energy during fights anyway, and this gives them a way to expend energy. The upgrade can even cost 100/100.
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On November 02 2010 18:27 HuHEN wrote:
Terran,
1:1a,
2: t
3: *SUPER HARD MACRO PART BEWARE* 3 DDDDDD (5ss if they are REALLY good)
4. repeat from step one.
Enlighten me on the situation Protoss would be doing during this moment 
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i don't believe toss-t1-units are up and the hightech-units aren't too. for me the biggest problem is the lack of mobility specially in lategame. stalker are very fast and so the have a good mobility but they have to stick with the mainarmy cause of antiair.
the next thing wich is hard to handle for me is the warpgate. i mean it is a very cool ability to warp in units. but u can't do it on minimap so it is hard for me to reinforce my army in big fights wich are very micro intensive.sometimes i think it would be better to transform the warpgates back that u can handle the reinforcement with hotkey and ralleypoint.
a lot of stuff for me to explore and improve but i don't believe the hole race is underpowered.
ps: i am newbi and this is just my humble opinion...
pps: would be nice to hear opinions about the warpgate-stuff
thx 
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Protoss,
1: 1a
2: FFFFFF
3: move colossus back
4: (return to pylon) 3sssz
5: 4c
6: 5ee
7: select units warping in ctrl1
8: back to the battle
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On November 02 2010 18:21 ensis wrote:
well, yes, protoss players tend to cheese. especially vs terran. but the question is, why are they doing this? why are they going for hidden techs? why are they going for risky expansions? well, the option is quite simple; going for a macro game. yes, koreans are quite cheesy in the first place, but the cheesiness of protoss is so frequent, that it is standard.
especially this gets appearant the further a tournament like this goes. in both quarterfinals of gsl, protoss did horribly. they always chose to cheese or go for a risky expansion. the question is, why are they doing this? the obvious answer would be, that no protoss is confident enough to win a macro game. now there is the question wether are they plain bad....all together or are they just right and they really wouldnt stand a chance.
the pvz in this season were quite poor, almost every match boiled down to either a canonrush or a canon expo followed by a roach rush. it was disgusting. pvt were quite the same. either 1 gate core fe or some one-base cheese (watch hopetorture vs genius for a awesome example).
so what happened? i basically think that terran and zerg just developped new, better ways to play their race. protoss on the other hand has been pretty much the same shit since beta period. but its not like the protoss are lazy, actually the protoss is the race that exploits their abilities at its best.
just think about it. what is more frequent? a protoss forgetting to add hts or a terran not caring about adding ghosts? you know the answer.
also, protoss players are doing everything to gain as much mapcontrol as possible.
question, how often do you see sensor towers used???? right, never.
also both races have great harrass abilities, be it little things like zerglings or contaminate or big things like nydus or baneling drops into the eco.
or just benshees or drops with 2 medivacs instasniping a nexus.
protoss has nothing to compete.
therefore protoss has pretty much boiled down to cheesing, to get somewhat of an advantage.
A 14 or 15 hatch first build is Risky
A 2 rax expand is Risky
A Quick banshee is risky
Fast mutas are Risky
Every race wants their tech hidden
Rushing to tech is risky if they mass units and push hard because your betting your minerals to get that tech up quickly. Terrans always hide their tech outside of 3 rax most of the time you can see the 1 or 2 more rax going down with the initial 9 scout.
Spires and baneling nests usually go behind the mineral line anything not at the front of the base is hidden tech really. Its easier for the other races to get the information with out really hurting the path they take to get to the tech.
You point to a Macro game is the weakness of toss but every toss should want more money even Genius that went with the void ray build expanded off of it how is that cheesy? PPL associate the void ray as cheese even if that shit floats in there base at the 20 minute mark when a Zerg can have 30 mutas and crush a mineral line by that time and escape easily.
Macro is not the problem of protoss at all.
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On November 02 2010 18:30 gotMilk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:27 HuHEN wrote:
Terran,
1:1a,
2: t
3: *SUPER HARD MACRO PART BEWARE* 3 DDDDDD (5ss if they are REALLY good)
4. repeat from step one.
Enlighten me on the situation Protoss would be doing during this moment
1. Check map for cloaked banshees
2. Check map for marauder drops
3. Check map for viking drops
4. Check map for tank drops
5. Check ramp for stim rushes
6. Check to make sure observer isn't about to be scanned
7. Check to make sure there are no ghosts in the opposing army.
8. Micro units so that you don't lose to kiting
9. Click on W, make a few units at a pylon
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To answer your question and quote the first post:
"No protoss in GSL2 RO4, no protoss in GSL1 RO4"
Because:
3 terrans in GSL2 RO4, 3 terrans in GSL2 RO4
Protoss is harder to play against terran at higher levels and players just need to learn to play the game better before we will see good results from protoss players.
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EPT
