[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 25

On November 02 2010 19:07 Bommes wrote:


Yea that's right, but as a Terran you will face similar problems. 1 Missstep and you run into FFs instantly losing you the game because of splitting your army due to terrain, 1 moment no attention and storm kills your whole army, not only 20 supply.
I never said protoss is easier to play, I do think that it's harder from pure mechanics, I'm just saying that you shouldn't discuss about balance by making up unrealistic stuff you have to do in comparison to your opponent (in ladder, on the same skill level).

Discussing about balance by legitimating your opinion with your opponent's skill (level) is not and will never be a good basis for a discussion from my point of view, that's what I wanted to say. It's just too emotional and people are making up too much stuff.

On November 02 2010 19:16 ensis wrote:


yup, youre completely right, but thats another problem. if the terran really is carefull, as protoss you are screwed, templar vs. ghost is the best example. if the terran makes a mistake you can win, but if the terran is carefull, you cannot touch him no matter what youre doing.

On November 02 2010 19:22 oZii wrote:
a 14 hatch isn't safe where do you ppl get this idea. Its not just safe except to cheese. 3 gate pressure expand push can break a 14 hatch after its up its not made out of teflon lol. You have to force the zerg to not drone hard and put pressure.

You dont wall against terran unless you want your pylon or gateways sniped we dont have auto-cast repair for our building thats why its ok to wall as terran. Though many terrans dont wall against protoss now either.

Any expand is risky cause your spending money on the CC nexus or whatever. Doesnt matter if its FE or not. Its easier to expand later because you can get a better army to help defend but that doesnt mean that 400 minerals or 300 for hatch can't cost you at the next engagement if the opponent pushes at the right time.

genus expanded in every game except for blink stalkers if he didnt expand in any of them you would be saying OMG allin 1 base noob.

so out of 4 games he didn't expand 1 time so where is your example of Protoss not going for macro style games? kcdc 1 gate FE huk uses this build alot. 3 gate expand against zerg. Do you even know any protoss builds? 2 gate robo allows you to expand depending on match up or situation. 2 gate stargate expand in PvZ. 2 gate fe in PvZ, 1 gate robo alows for expand in PvT. It all depends on the information and situation. Its not like there aren't macro orientated build out there for protoss.

On November 02 2010 19:47 ensis wrote:


i have about 600 points and countless games more than you, you are that low level teir of players, where protoss is stronger than terran.
i´m not surprised that you own zergs with 3 gate, but this never happens at a pro level and very rarely even on my- still low- level.

i dont say that protoss cannot win the macro game or that protoss players dont want the macro game. but for some freaking reason you still fail to explain, no top-level protoss player actually wants to play a macro game straight up without advantage.
if protoss wanted this, he would just expand off 2 gate robo or 3 gate robo and tech up nice and smoothly. but it never happens. either they rush for an expansion hoping to get away with it, or they try to do some damage with voidrays or blinkstalkers. note; only speaking about pvt, because pvz is a complete mess right now without any structure.
sorry to offend you, but dont call me a noob, just because i have not the same oppinion.

On November 02 2010 20:42 Severedevil wrote:
Hmm... I suspect three things for Protoss.

1) Protoss underuse Stalkers in the early game.

Yes, Stalkers lose 1-for-1 and especially cost-for-cost against Marauder/Marine (as well as banshee >_<). But Protoss's other early units lose worse, until you have fancy tech, and they're simply too slow to compete unless Terran lets you wall off his army and then kill it with Zealots under Guardian Shield.

Furthermore, since Protoss has Warp Gate whereas Terran has to build and send units, Protoss can have a similar army cost in an attack as the Terran does on the defense - and far more on the defense since Terran has to produce and then send his units. This should give Protoss the ability to pressure (forcing Terran to reveal a tech or expansion build) and to defend aggression even though his units are less efficient.

2) Protoss underuse forge against aggressive PvT infantry play.

Protoss needs two gas, and it's bitching hard to hold the natural. Photon Cannons are the only unit Protoss has until Colossus that solidly defeat Stim Marine/Marauder, and they don't use any gas...

3) Protoss need modest buffs to some of their easily-accessible units (Zealot/Stalker/Immortal/Sentry/Void Ray) to compete better in the early game. Move speed 2.25 is miserable, perhaps some of those could be upped to 2.5. (A modest nerf to Colossus and/or Templar might also be appropriate if they're too strong once Protoss can safely acquire them.) Maps are probably also too small.

On November 02 2010 18:16 Zuor wrote:


Just because Protoss isn't doing well in the tournament where the best of the best compete, doesn't mean that Protoss is suddenly totally underpowered at lower skill level.

On November 02 2010 20:07 oZii wrote:


Regardless of how many points you have or How many games you have played the title of the Thread is GSL no where did I bring my own experiences, Points on Ladder or how many games I played into the discussion, now as this thread progressed other tournaments have been brought into the discussion. I didnt call you a noob I was saying that you are referring Genius play as cheesy. If he stayed on 1 base people would be saying he was going for all-in 1 base play.

You can't say that protoss players doesn't go for Macro games you are so Generalizing everyone that plays Toss. Then you talk about expansions in tournaments when I gave you an example in GSL only 1 game did Genius not expand and isn't it common practice and widely known that You push then expand right? Genius attacked with Voids then Expanded by forcing ITR to stay in his base a bit longer. If you see you have a better unit composition and feel that you can do massive damage or win out right why shouldnt you push? As you push you expand isn't that basic Starcraft mentality?

You say no macro without advantage now if we stick with PvT matchups many Protoss go 1 gate FE or 2 gate robo into expand. If the expand doesnt hold because the Terran goes allin rax of course it can fall. Or the terran can see the expand and go expand himself I have seen this numerous times I watch streams like all day long I watch more than I play I havent missed GSL yet this season so I dont get where you get this idea of protoss doesnt want to macro. I point to protoss builds that are designed to allow expansion either fast or not. You are just throwing out there No Protoss wants to macro without citing any examples from GSL besides the 1 game of 4 that genius didnt expand. Genius expands almost every matchup but less in PvP but thats hard for many to do in PvP.

Blizzcon? he FE or expanded more than he did not. Artosis refers to Genius as a macro orientated Protoss several times in the broadcast during the series Genius got eliminated.

See how I am pointing to examples of high level tournaments were a toss expands specifically Genius.

Saying that its the mentality of the Protoss player base as a whole as the reasoning why toss isn't doing well at all is generalization. Which makes no sense other wise people like KCDC don't come up with builds like the FE or minigun posts strategies of Blink stalker expand in PvP. There are more protoss players than any of the other races. So pointing to just players mindset is impractical.

On November 02 2010 21:33 lastreason wrote:
and what u say about the fact that dt's are useless against terrans?

On November 02 2010 21:22 ensis wrote:


you said that i wouldnt know any protoss builds, this has nothing to do with gsl and thats why i said that.
and you talked about 3 gate vs. zerg. havent seen any in gsl, may be mistaking. at least its not standard.
also, its about gsl and not about genius vs itr, therefore generalizations are required.

and if you want to talk about this match so badly;
1. game: macrogame? nope. 2 base timing push, terran was not prepared and itr didnt play well the whole game.
2. game: cheese from protoss.
3. game: terran cheese.
4. game: a macro game. protoss got his 2nd up a lot earlier, but didnt do damage. got roflstomped by terran. maybe he should have taken his 3rd earlier, but i dont think this would have changed anything. voids are just wasted tech in mid-lategame.

so where is the macro oriented nex-genius? right, he´s dead! the games we should actually talk about are 1st and 4th. both went basically the same way, but turned out completely differnt. the other two are not any relevant except you want to talk about how imbalanced thors+ repair are. did you know that one scv has almost the repair of a medivac heal?

so the two options are protoss can compete macro-wise, then you basically say, genius screwed up in game 4. or protoss cannot win an even macro war vs mules and stuff and itr somehow screwed up game 1.

so, which is yours? or do you think, both screwed up and the macro-abilities are even?

On November 02 2010 19:47 ensis wrote:


i have about 600 points and countless games more than you, you are that low level teir of players, where protoss is stronger than terran.
i´m not surprised that you own zergs with 3 gate, but this never happens at a pro level and very rarely even on my- still low- level.

i dont say that protoss cannot win the macro game or that protoss players dont want the macro game. but for some freaking reason you still fail to explain, no top-level protoss player actually wants to play a macro game straight up without advantage.
if protoss wanted this, he would just expand off 2 gate robo or 3 gate robo and tech up nice and smoothly. but it never happens. either they rush for an expansion hoping to get away with it, or they try to do some damage with voidrays or blinkstalkers. note; only speaking about pvt, because pvz is a complete mess right now without any structure.
sorry to offend you, but dont call me a noob, just because i have not the same oppinion.

On November 02 2010 21:40 oZii wrote:


1) ... regardless what the unit composition is including void rays. If Genius pushed saw that he wouldn't do significant damage im pretty sure he would have back out since he was ahead and macro up. If the game doesnt go to a 5 base Game who's fault is that? The terrans? Because he attacked and didnt let the protoss .....

On November 02 2010 21:50 dragonsuper wrote:
protoss is a dead race right now,

On November 02 2010 20:48 oZii wrote:


Concerning what you say about the forge how would you use it in PvT? Im not being sarcastic just want to know your thoughts on how it could be used effectively when expanding?