|
On November 02 2010 21:48 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 21:40 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 21:22 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 20:07 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 19:47 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 19:22 oZii wrote:
a 14 hatch isn't safe where do you ppl get this idea. Its not just safe except to cheese. 3 gate pressure expand push can break a 14 hatch after its up its not made out of teflon lol. You have to force the zerg to not drone hard and put pressure.
You dont wall against terran unless you want your pylon or gateways sniped we dont have auto-cast repair for our building thats why its ok to wall as terran. Though many terrans dont wall against protoss now either.
Any expand is risky cause your spending money on the CC nexus or whatever. Doesnt matter if its FE or not. Its easier to expand later because you can get a better army to help defend but that doesnt mean that 400 minerals or 300 for hatch can't cost you at the next engagement if the opponent pushes at the right time.
genus expanded in every game except for blink stalkers if he didnt expand in any of them you would be saying OMG allin 1 base noob.
so out of 4 games he didn't expand 1 time so where is your example of Protoss not going for macro style games? kcdc 1 gate FE huk uses this build alot. 3 gate expand against zerg. Do you even know any protoss builds? 2 gate robo allows you to expand depending on match up or situation. 2 gate stargate expand in PvZ. 2 gate fe in PvZ, 1 gate robo alows for expand in PvT. It all depends on the information and situation. Its not like there aren't macro orientated build out there for protoss. i have about 600 points and countless games more than you, you are that low level teir of players, where protoss is stronger than terran. i´m not surprised that you own zergs with 3 gate, but this never happens at a pro level and very rarely even on my- still low- level. i dont say that protoss cannot win the macro game or that protoss players dont want the macro game. but for some freaking reason you still fail to explain, no top-level protoss player actually wants to play a macro game straight up without advantage. if protoss wanted this, he would just expand off 2 gate robo or 3 gate robo and tech up nice and smoothly. but it never happens. either they rush for an expansion hoping to get away with it, or they try to do some damage with voidrays or blinkstalkers. note; only speaking about pvt, because pvz is a complete mess right now without any structure. sorry to offend you, but dont call me a noob, just because i have not the same oppinion. Regardless of how many points you have or How many games you have played the title of the Thread is GSL no where did I bring my own experiences, Points on Ladder or how many games I played into the discussion, now as this thread progressed other tournaments have been brought into the discussion. I didnt call you a noob I was saying that you are referring Genius play as cheesy. If he stayed on 1 base people would be saying he was going for all-in 1 base play. You can't say that protoss players doesn't go for Macro games you are so Generalizing everyone that plays Toss. Then you talk about expansions in tournaments when I gave you an example in GSL only 1 game did Genius not expand and isn't it common practice and widely known that You push then expand right? Genius attacked with Voids then Expanded by forcing ITR to stay in his base a bit longer. If you see you have a better unit composition and feel that you can do massive damage or win out right why shouldnt you push? As you push you expand isn't that basic Starcraft mentality? You say no macro without advantage now if we stick with PvT matchups many Protoss go 1 gate FE or 2 gate robo into expand. If the expand doesnt hold because the Terran goes allin rax of course it can fall. Or the terran can see the expand and go expand himself I have seen this numerous times I watch streams like all day long I watch more than I play I havent missed GSL yet this season so I dont get where you get this idea of protoss doesnt want to macro. I point to protoss builds that are designed to allow expansion either fast or not. You are just throwing out there No Protoss wants to macro without citing any examples from GSL besides the 1 game of 4 that genius didnt expand. Genius expands almost every matchup but less in PvP but thats hard for many to do in PvP. Blizzcon? he FE or expanded more than he did not. Artosis refers to Genius as a macro orientated Protoss several times in the broadcast during the series Genius got eliminated. See how I am pointing to examples of high level tournaments were a toss expands specifically Genius. Saying that its the mentality of the Protoss player base as a whole as the reasoning why toss isn't doing well at all is generalization. Which makes no sense other wise people like KCDC don't come up with builds like the FE or minigun posts strategies of Blink stalker expand in PvP. There are more protoss players than any of the other races. So pointing to just players mindset is impractical. you said that i wouldnt know any protoss builds, this has nothing to do with gsl and thats why i said that. and you talked about 3 gate vs. zerg. havent seen any in gsl, may be mistaking. at least its not standard. also, its about gsl and not about genius vs itr, therefore generalizations are required. and if you want to talk about this match so badly; 1. game: macrogame? nope. 2 base timing push, terran was not prepared and itr didnt play well the whole game. 2. game: cheese from protoss. 3. game: terran cheese. 4. game: a macro game. protoss got his 2nd up a lot earlier, but didnt do damage. got roflstomped by terran. maybe he should have taken his 3rd earlier, but i dont think this would have changed anything. voids are just wasted tech in mid-lategame. so where is the macro oriented nex-genius? right, he´s dead! the games we should actually talk about are 1st and 4th. both went basically the same way, but turned out completely differnt. the other two are not any relevant except you want to talk about how imbalanced thors+ repair are. did you know that one scv has almost the repair of a medivac heal? so the two options are protoss can compete macro-wise, then you basically say, genius screwed up in game 4. or protoss cannot win an even macro war vs mules and stuff and itr somehow screwed up game 1. so, which is yours? or do you think, both screwed up and the macro-abilities are even? 1) ... regardless what the unit composition is including void rays. If Genius pushed saw that he wouldn't do significant damage im pretty sure he would have back out since he was ahead and macro up. If the game doesnt go to a 5 base Game who's fault is that? The terrans? Because he attacked and didnt let the protoss ..... youre brilliant, you say, genius would have played the macro game, becuase he was ahead to prove me wrong on my statement that protoss needs to have some sort of advantage. brilliant, really.
See this is where your thought process is flawed regarding the topic. Nobody is 15 CC and 15 nexus NOBODY in PvT they can but then you say OMG Risky. Basic DAY9 fundamentals of RTS especially starcraft tell you to Expand as you Push what is so hard to understand about what I wrote. Terran is not Zerg and neither is Protoss they arent hatch first against each wtf.
Since your trying to be so smart here. How does Genius know he is ahead? He doesn't he only knows it once he pushes out like all good little boys and girls do in starcraft as he is expanding then he sees his opponents base and knows he is ahead. What makes Genius ahead? A better unit composition? Maybe the fact that he has expanded and Is about equal or Greater on food were as his opponent is turtling. Genius is unaware or anyone is unaware that they are head only if they scout. So from your viewpoint your looking at it like every push while expand is bad when that is basic fundamentals of starcraft so no I didn't prove your point at all. If you think pushing while expansion is bad when everyone does it then you must be just 4 gating.
You say go 2 gate robo you can push with that you know? You dont have to play defense which is what it sounds like your saying that protoss must turtle 2 3 bases and that every push is all in regardless if there is a expansion or not.
KCDC FE is a defensive build you don't push with your initial units is there an advantage to that build when you expand? No, but then you will counter with but its risky!!! I honestly don't know what game your playing or watching.
|
On November 02 2010 21:59 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 21:48 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 21:40 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 21:22 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 20:07 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 19:47 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 19:22 oZii wrote:
a 14 hatch isn't safe where do you ppl get this idea. Its not just safe except to cheese. 3 gate pressure expand push can break a 14 hatch after its up its not made out of teflon lol. You have to force the zerg to not drone hard and put pressure.
You dont wall against terran unless you want your pylon or gateways sniped we dont have auto-cast repair for our building thats why its ok to wall as terran. Though many terrans dont wall against protoss now either.
Any expand is risky cause your spending money on the CC nexus or whatever. Doesnt matter if its FE or not. Its easier to expand later because you can get a better army to help defend but that doesnt mean that 400 minerals or 300 for hatch can't cost you at the next engagement if the opponent pushes at the right time.
genus expanded in every game except for blink stalkers if he didnt expand in any of them you would be saying OMG allin 1 base noob.
so out of 4 games he didn't expand 1 time so where is your example of Protoss not going for macro style games? kcdc 1 gate FE huk uses this build alot. 3 gate expand against zerg. Do you even know any protoss builds? 2 gate robo allows you to expand depending on match up or situation. 2 gate stargate expand in PvZ. 2 gate fe in PvZ, 1 gate robo alows for expand in PvT. It all depends on the information and situation. Its not like there aren't macro orientated build out there for protoss. i have about 600 points and countless games more than you, you are that low level teir of players, where protoss is stronger than terran. i´m not surprised that you own zergs with 3 gate, but this never happens at a pro level and very rarely even on my- still low- level. i dont say that protoss cannot win the macro game or that protoss players dont want the macro game. but for some freaking reason you still fail to explain, no top-level protoss player actually wants to play a macro game straight up without advantage. if protoss wanted this, he would just expand off 2 gate robo or 3 gate robo and tech up nice and smoothly. but it never happens. either they rush for an expansion hoping to get away with it, or they try to do some damage with voidrays or blinkstalkers. note; only speaking about pvt, because pvz is a complete mess right now without any structure. sorry to offend you, but dont call me a noob, just because i have not the same oppinion. Regardless of how many points you have or How many games you have played the title of the Thread is GSL no where did I bring my own experiences, Points on Ladder or how many games I played into the discussion, now as this thread progressed other tournaments have been brought into the discussion. I didnt call you a noob I was saying that you are referring Genius play as cheesy. If he stayed on 1 base people would be saying he was going for all-in 1 base play. You can't say that protoss players doesn't go for Macro games you are so Generalizing everyone that plays Toss. Then you talk about expansions in tournaments when I gave you an example in GSL only 1 game did Genius not expand and isn't it common practice and widely known that You push then expand right? Genius attacked with Voids then Expanded by forcing ITR to stay in his base a bit longer. If you see you have a better unit composition and feel that you can do massive damage or win out right why shouldnt you push? As you push you expand isn't that basic Starcraft mentality? You say no macro without advantage now if we stick with PvT matchups many Protoss go 1 gate FE or 2 gate robo into expand. If the expand doesnt hold because the Terran goes allin rax of course it can fall. Or the terran can see the expand and go expand himself I have seen this numerous times I watch streams like all day long I watch more than I play I havent missed GSL yet this season so I dont get where you get this idea of protoss doesnt want to macro. I point to protoss builds that are designed to allow expansion either fast or not. You are just throwing out there No Protoss wants to macro without citing any examples from GSL besides the 1 game of 4 that genius didnt expand. Genius expands almost every matchup but less in PvP but thats hard for many to do in PvP. Blizzcon? he FE or expanded more than he did not. Artosis refers to Genius as a macro orientated Protoss several times in the broadcast during the series Genius got eliminated. See how I am pointing to examples of high level tournaments were a toss expands specifically Genius. Saying that its the mentality of the Protoss player base as a whole as the reasoning why toss isn't doing well at all is generalization. Which makes no sense other wise people like KCDC don't come up with builds like the FE or minigun posts strategies of Blink stalker expand in PvP. There are more protoss players than any of the other races. So pointing to just players mindset is impractical. you said that i wouldnt know any protoss builds, this has nothing to do with gsl and thats why i said that. and you talked about 3 gate vs. zerg. havent seen any in gsl, may be mistaking. at least its not standard. also, its about gsl and not about genius vs itr, therefore generalizations are required. and if you want to talk about this match so badly; 1. game: macrogame? nope. 2 base timing push, terran was not prepared and itr didnt play well the whole game. 2. game: cheese from protoss. 3. game: terran cheese. 4. game: a macro game. protoss got his 2nd up a lot earlier, but didnt do damage. got roflstomped by terran. maybe he should have taken his 3rd earlier, but i dont think this would have changed anything. voids are just wasted tech in mid-lategame. so where is the macro oriented nex-genius? right, he´s dead! the games we should actually talk about are 1st and 4th. both went basically the same way, but turned out completely differnt. the other two are not any relevant except you want to talk about how imbalanced thors+ repair are. did you know that one scv has almost the repair of a medivac heal? so the two options are protoss can compete macro-wise, then you basically say, genius screwed up in game 4. or protoss cannot win an even macro war vs mules and stuff and itr somehow screwed up game 1. so, which is yours? or do you think, both screwed up and the macro-abilities are even? 1) ... regardless what the unit composition is including void rays. If Genius pushed saw that he wouldn't do significant damage im pretty sure he would have back out since he was ahead and macro up. If the game doesnt go to a 5 base Game who's fault is that? The terrans? Because he attacked and didnt let the protoss ..... youre brilliant, you say, genius would have played the macro game, becuase he was ahead to prove me wrong on my statement that protoss needs to have some sort of advantage. brilliant, really. See this is where your thought process is flawed regarding the topic. Nobody is 15 CC and 15 nexus NOBODY. Basic DAY9 fundamentals of RTS especially starcraft tell you to Expand as you Push what is so hard to understand about what I wrote. Terran is not Zerg and neither is Protoss they arent hatch first against each wtf. Since your trying to be so smart here. How does Genius know he is ahead? He doesn't he only knows it once he pushes out like all good little boys and girls do in starcraft as he is expanding then he sees his opponents base and knows he is ahead. What makes Genius ahead? A better unit composition? Maybe the fact that he has expanded and Is about equal or Greater on food were as his opponent is turtling. Genius is unaware or anyone is unaware that they are head only if they scout. So from your viewpoint your looking at it like every push while expand is bad when that is basic fundamentals of starcraft so no I didn't prove your point at all. If you think pushing while expansion is bad when everyone does it then you must be just 4 gating. You say go 2 gate robo you can push with that you know? You dont have to play defense which is what it sounds like your saying that protoss must turtle 2 3 bases and that every push is all in regardless if there is a expansion or not. KCDC FE is a defensive build you don't push with your initial units is there an advantage to that build when you expand? No but then you will counter with but its risky!!! I honestly don't know what game your playing or watching.
Ive seen people go 15 CC and 15 nexus. its not impossible just not fully explored yet. Also expanding while pushing isn't ALWAYS the best solution.
|
On November 02 2010 18:43 Plexa wrote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being forced to go robo first against Terran. Protoss went X gate into robo in SC1 for 12 years and that never stopped innovation. Just as with SC1, if you choose not to open robo then you are at extreme risk from banshee (vultures) - but if they don't go banshee you are fine. You take that gamble and that gamble is completely fine.
Protoss are weak to Terran in the early game purely because there are a few strategies that require precision counters. As already discussed, banshee require observer or you lose, thor pushes require immortals, banshee/marine pushes require stalker/colossus, various X rax builds require a certain number of sentries not to die etc. All of these strategies are perfectly counterable by the protoss given sufficient information - but without that information it's instant gg. That's why good Terrans (like boxer) do things to keep the protoss confused and in the dark - hiding banshees is GG, weird thor pushes after banshee is also gg without immortals - exploiting protoss like that is the key to winning. Protoss aren't good enough at reading Terran to be able to play safe just yet...
You're correct in your analysis. T is the one who dictates how the match progresses since P is forced to react accordingly vs T or lose. This is compounded by the fact that the matches primarily hinge on the early portion of the game, if a T push/start breaks you as P you've already lost or are behind for the rest of the game unless T screws up.
P should also have options that would require T to react, similar to Banshee openings, Thor pushes, etc. In the ZvT matchup both races can force the other into a particular set of units or builds which is how it should be, there is a certain equilibrium now that isn't quite there in PvT.
|
On November 02 2010 22:03 raf3776 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 21:59 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 21:48 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 21:40 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 21:22 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 20:07 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 19:47 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 19:22 oZii wrote:
a 14 hatch isn't safe where do you ppl get this idea. Its not just safe except to cheese. 3 gate pressure expand push can break a 14 hatch after its up its not made out of teflon lol. You have to force the zerg to not drone hard and put pressure.
You dont wall against terran unless you want your pylon or gateways sniped we dont have auto-cast repair for our building thats why its ok to wall as terran. Though many terrans dont wall against protoss now either.
Any expand is risky cause your spending money on the CC nexus or whatever. Doesnt matter if its FE or not. Its easier to expand later because you can get a better army to help defend but that doesnt mean that 400 minerals or 300 for hatch can't cost you at the next engagement if the opponent pushes at the right time.
genus expanded in every game except for blink stalkers if he didnt expand in any of them you would be saying OMG allin 1 base noob.
so out of 4 games he didn't expand 1 time so where is your example of Protoss not going for macro style games? kcdc 1 gate FE huk uses this build alot. 3 gate expand against zerg. Do you even know any protoss builds? 2 gate robo allows you to expand depending on match up or situation. 2 gate stargate expand in PvZ. 2 gate fe in PvZ, 1 gate robo alows for expand in PvT. It all depends on the information and situation. Its not like there aren't macro orientated build out there for protoss. i have about 600 points and countless games more than you, you are that low level teir of players, where protoss is stronger than terran. i´m not surprised that you own zergs with 3 gate, but this never happens at a pro level and very rarely even on my- still low- level. i dont say that protoss cannot win the macro game or that protoss players dont want the macro game. but for some freaking reason you still fail to explain, no top-level protoss player actually wants to play a macro game straight up without advantage. if protoss wanted this, he would just expand off 2 gate robo or 3 gate robo and tech up nice and smoothly. but it never happens. either they rush for an expansion hoping to get away with it, or they try to do some damage with voidrays or blinkstalkers. note; only speaking about pvt, because pvz is a complete mess right now without any structure. sorry to offend you, but dont call me a noob, just because i have not the same oppinion. Regardless of how many points you have or How many games you have played the title of the Thread is GSL no where did I bring my own experiences, Points on Ladder or how many games I played into the discussion, now as this thread progressed other tournaments have been brought into the discussion. I didnt call you a noob I was saying that you are referring Genius play as cheesy. If he stayed on 1 base people would be saying he was going for all-in 1 base play. You can't say that protoss players doesn't go for Macro games you are so Generalizing everyone that plays Toss. Then you talk about expansions in tournaments when I gave you an example in GSL only 1 game did Genius not expand and isn't it common practice and widely known that You push then expand right? Genius attacked with Voids then Expanded by forcing ITR to stay in his base a bit longer. If you see you have a better unit composition and feel that you can do massive damage or win out right why shouldnt you push? As you push you expand isn't that basic Starcraft mentality? You say no macro without advantage now if we stick with PvT matchups many Protoss go 1 gate FE or 2 gate robo into expand. If the expand doesnt hold because the Terran goes allin rax of course it can fall. Or the terran can see the expand and go expand himself I have seen this numerous times I watch streams like all day long I watch more than I play I havent missed GSL yet this season so I dont get where you get this idea of protoss doesnt want to macro. I point to protoss builds that are designed to allow expansion either fast or not. You are just throwing out there No Protoss wants to macro without citing any examples from GSL besides the 1 game of 4 that genius didnt expand. Genius expands almost every matchup but less in PvP but thats hard for many to do in PvP. Blizzcon? he FE or expanded more than he did not. Artosis refers to Genius as a macro orientated Protoss several times in the broadcast during the series Genius got eliminated. See how I am pointing to examples of high level tournaments were a toss expands specifically Genius. Saying that its the mentality of the Protoss player base as a whole as the reasoning why toss isn't doing well at all is generalization. Which makes no sense other wise people like KCDC don't come up with builds like the FE or minigun posts strategies of Blink stalker expand in PvP. There are more protoss players than any of the other races. So pointing to just players mindset is impractical. you said that i wouldnt know any protoss builds, this has nothing to do with gsl and thats why i said that. and you talked about 3 gate vs. zerg. havent seen any in gsl, may be mistaking. at least its not standard. also, its about gsl and not about genius vs itr, therefore generalizations are required. and if you want to talk about this match so badly; 1. game: macrogame? nope. 2 base timing push, terran was not prepared and itr didnt play well the whole game. 2. game: cheese from protoss. 3. game: terran cheese. 4. game: a macro game. protoss got his 2nd up a lot earlier, but didnt do damage. got roflstomped by terran. maybe he should have taken his 3rd earlier, but i dont think this would have changed anything. voids are just wasted tech in mid-lategame. so where is the macro oriented nex-genius? right, he´s dead! the games we should actually talk about are 1st and 4th. both went basically the same way, but turned out completely differnt. the other two are not any relevant except you want to talk about how imbalanced thors+ repair are. did you know that one scv has almost the repair of a medivac heal? so the two options are protoss can compete macro-wise, then you basically say, genius screwed up in game 4. or protoss cannot win an even macro war vs mules and stuff and itr somehow screwed up game 1. so, which is yours? or do you think, both screwed up and the macro-abilities are even? 1) ... regardless what the unit composition is including void rays. If Genius pushed saw that he wouldn't do significant damage im pretty sure he would have back out since he was ahead and macro up. If the game doesnt go to a 5 base Game who's fault is that? The terrans? Because he attacked and didnt let the protoss ..... youre brilliant, you say, genius would have played the macro game, becuase he was ahead to prove me wrong on my statement that protoss needs to have some sort of advantage. brilliant, really. See this is where your thought process is flawed regarding the topic. Nobody is 15 CC and 15 nexus NOBODY. Basic DAY9 fundamentals of RTS especially starcraft tell you to Expand as you Push what is so hard to understand about what I wrote. Terran is not Zerg and neither is Protoss they arent hatch first against each wtf. Since your trying to be so smart here. How does Genius know he is ahead? He doesn't he only knows it once he pushes out like all good little boys and girls do in starcraft as he is expanding then he sees his opponents base and knows he is ahead. What makes Genius ahead? A better unit composition? Maybe the fact that he has expanded and Is about equal or Greater on food were as his opponent is turtling. Genius is unaware or anyone is unaware that they are head only if they scout. So from your viewpoint your looking at it like every push while expand is bad when that is basic fundamentals of starcraft so no I didn't prove your point at all. If you think pushing while expansion is bad when everyone does it then you must be just 4 gating. You say go 2 gate robo you can push with that you know? You dont have to play defense which is what it sounds like your saying that protoss must turtle 2 3 bases and that every push is all in regardless if there is a expansion or not. KCDC FE is a defensive build you don't push with your initial units is there an advantage to that build when you expand? No but then you will counter with but its risky!!! I honestly don't know what game your playing or watching. Ive seen people go 15 CC and 15 nexus. its not impossible just not fully explored yet. Also expanding while pushing isn't ALWAYS the best solution.
I know its possible nothing is impossible you can save up 400 minerals and drop a Nexus if you want with 8 probes. In PvT I havent seen a 15 nexus in PvZ yea sure EDIT: to clarify which match up i was talking about.
I didnt say it was the best option either If you read the posts between me and him he is implying that pushing while expand=advantage and also that its bad and that is the is the only way protoss knows how to play or is one of the flaws of Protoss play. I also never said you always expand while you push but that is the ideal situation that is the best time to expand if you can cripple but not kill then expand. If you go to your opponents base and he has 10 cloacked banshees and you run in with a 14 zealots obviously your not going to want to expand.
|
Perhaps protoss is the hardest to play.
|
On November 02 2010 21:59 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 21:48 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 21:40 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 21:22 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 20:07 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 19:47 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 19:22 oZii wrote:
a 14 hatch isn't safe where do you ppl get this idea. Its not just safe except to cheese. 3 gate pressure expand push can break a 14 hatch after its up its not made out of teflon lol. You have to force the zerg to not drone hard and put pressure.
You dont wall against terran unless you want your pylon or gateways sniped we dont have auto-cast repair for our building thats why its ok to wall as terran. Though many terrans dont wall against protoss now either.
Any expand is risky cause your spending money on the CC nexus or whatever. Doesnt matter if its FE or not. Its easier to expand later because you can get a better army to help defend but that doesnt mean that 400 minerals or 300 for hatch can't cost you at the next engagement if the opponent pushes at the right time.
genus expanded in every game except for blink stalkers if he didnt expand in any of them you would be saying OMG allin 1 base noob.
so out of 4 games he didn't expand 1 time so where is your example of Protoss not going for macro style games? kcdc 1 gate FE huk uses this build alot. 3 gate expand against zerg. Do you even know any protoss builds? 2 gate robo allows you to expand depending on match up or situation. 2 gate stargate expand in PvZ. 2 gate fe in PvZ, 1 gate robo alows for expand in PvT. It all depends on the information and situation. Its not like there aren't macro orientated build out there for protoss. i have about 600 points and countless games more than you, you are that low level teir of players, where protoss is stronger than terran. i´m not surprised that you own zergs with 3 gate, but this never happens at a pro level and very rarely even on my- still low- level. i dont say that protoss cannot win the macro game or that protoss players dont want the macro game. but for some freaking reason you still fail to explain, no top-level protoss player actually wants to play a macro game straight up without advantage. if protoss wanted this, he would just expand off 2 gate robo or 3 gate robo and tech up nice and smoothly. but it never happens. either they rush for an expansion hoping to get away with it, or they try to do some damage with voidrays or blinkstalkers. note; only speaking about pvt, because pvz is a complete mess right now without any structure. sorry to offend you, but dont call me a noob, just because i have not the same oppinion. Regardless of how many points you have or How many games you have played the title of the Thread is GSL no where did I bring my own experiences, Points on Ladder or how many games I played into the discussion, now as this thread progressed other tournaments have been brought into the discussion. I didnt call you a noob I was saying that you are referring Genius play as cheesy. If he stayed on 1 base people would be saying he was going for all-in 1 base play. You can't say that protoss players doesn't go for Macro games you are so Generalizing everyone that plays Toss. Then you talk about expansions in tournaments when I gave you an example in GSL only 1 game did Genius not expand and isn't it common practice and widely known that You push then expand right? Genius attacked with Voids then Expanded by forcing ITR to stay in his base a bit longer. If you see you have a better unit composition and feel that you can do massive damage or win out right why shouldnt you push? As you push you expand isn't that basic Starcraft mentality? You say no macro without advantage now if we stick with PvT matchups many Protoss go 1 gate FE or 2 gate robo into expand. If the expand doesnt hold because the Terran goes allin rax of course it can fall. Or the terran can see the expand and go expand himself I have seen this numerous times I watch streams like all day long I watch more than I play I havent missed GSL yet this season so I dont get where you get this idea of protoss doesnt want to macro. I point to protoss builds that are designed to allow expansion either fast or not. You are just throwing out there No Protoss wants to macro without citing any examples from GSL besides the 1 game of 4 that genius didnt expand. Genius expands almost every matchup but less in PvP but thats hard for many to do in PvP. Blizzcon? he FE or expanded more than he did not. Artosis refers to Genius as a macro orientated Protoss several times in the broadcast during the series Genius got eliminated. See how I am pointing to examples of high level tournaments were a toss expands specifically Genius. Saying that its the mentality of the Protoss player base as a whole as the reasoning why toss isn't doing well at all is generalization. Which makes no sense other wise people like KCDC don't come up with builds like the FE or minigun posts strategies of Blink stalker expand in PvP. There are more protoss players than any of the other races. So pointing to just players mindset is impractical. you said that i wouldnt know any protoss builds, this has nothing to do with gsl and thats why i said that. and you talked about 3 gate vs. zerg. havent seen any in gsl, may be mistaking. at least its not standard. also, its about gsl and not about genius vs itr, therefore generalizations are required. and if you want to talk about this match so badly; 1. game: macrogame? nope. 2 base timing push, terran was not prepared and itr didnt play well the whole game. 2. game: cheese from protoss. 3. game: terran cheese. 4. game: a macro game. protoss got his 2nd up a lot earlier, but didnt do damage. got roflstomped by terran. maybe he should have taken his 3rd earlier, but i dont think this would have changed anything. voids are just wasted tech in mid-lategame. so where is the macro oriented nex-genius? right, he´s dead! the games we should actually talk about are 1st and 4th. both went basically the same way, but turned out completely differnt. the other two are not any relevant except you want to talk about how imbalanced thors+ repair are. did you know that one scv has almost the repair of a medivac heal? so the two options are protoss can compete macro-wise, then you basically say, genius screwed up in game 4. or protoss cannot win an even macro war vs mules and stuff and itr somehow screwed up game 1. so, which is yours? or do you think, both screwed up and the macro-abilities are even? 1) ... regardless what the unit composition is including void rays. If Genius pushed saw that he wouldn't do significant damage im pretty sure he would have back out since he was ahead and macro up. If the game doesnt go to a 5 base Game who's fault is that? The terrans? Because he attacked and didnt let the protoss ..... youre brilliant, you say, genius would have played the macro game, becuase he was ahead to prove me wrong on my statement that protoss needs to have some sort of advantage. brilliant, really. See this is where your thought process is flawed regarding the topic. Nobody is 15 CC and 15 nexus NOBODY in PvT they can but then you say OMG Risky. Basic DAY9 fundamentals of RTS especially starcraft tell you to Expand as you Push what is so hard to understand about what I wrote. Terran is not Zerg and neither is Protoss they arent hatch first against each wtf. Since your trying to be so smart here. How does Genius know he is ahead? He doesn't he only knows it once he pushes out like all good little boys and girls do in starcraft as he is expanding then he sees his opponents base and knows he is ahead. What makes Genius ahead? A better unit composition? Maybe the fact that he has expanded and Is about equal or Greater on food were as his opponent is turtling. Genius is unaware or anyone is unaware that they are head only if they scout. So from your viewpoint your looking at it like every push while expand is bad when that is basic fundamentals of starcraft so no I didn't prove your point at all. If you think pushing while expansion is bad when everyone does it then you must be just 4 gating. You say go 2 gate robo you can push with that you know? You dont have to play defense which is what it sounds like your saying that protoss must turtle 2 3 bases and that every push is all in regardless if there is a expansion or not. KCDC FE is a defensive build you don't push with your initial units is there an advantage to that build when you expand? No, but then you will counter with but its risky!!! I honestly don't know what game your playing or watching.
yeah, and again, you know everything about that game. send me a greeting card from korea with your first wcg and gsl title -.-
live on in your world of phantasy starcraft. you know? you arent right just because you are screaming the loudest. and you cannot read it seems. i never said anything about pushing is bad.
i say, that protoss needs and advantage, be it by dealing damage or distracting the enemy with a push or getting a nexus pretty early.
and thats why i think protoss are doing bad. btw. you still fail to give a decent explanation why protoss arent doing well in gsl. in addition to gsl. protoss ladder-ranks are dwindling even further every weak. right now we are at 24 protoss i think in the global top 100. whereas protoss is the most played race in diamond. well, the point is not the number itself, but the trend.
and it would be all good, if there were 4 zergs and 3 terrans and 1 protoss in gsl, because the terrans and zergplayers are all old bw progamers and the protoss just got lucky. but its not that way. i cannot believe that protoss players are just plain bad, i just cannot believe. especially since protoss was said to be overpowered during early beta, this means, that if protoss is op, protoss players are winning tournaments like those. also its a bit odd, that the only foreigners in gsl are terrans (idra is korean imo).
|
On November 02 2010 22:12 UnholyRai wrote:
Perhaps protoss is the hardest to play.
nope, its definitely not. protoss is easy as hell actually, but thats the problem.
there really is nothing you can master i think. except for gosumicro like shuttle+ ht.
you cannot really multitask like hell with harrassment except for stormdrops (and not even those vs. sensor towers). protoss lags dps units. not even collossi are exceptionally good at dps.
|
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2bk42.png)
Protoss not doing well in this season
|
On November 02 2010 22:44 xephon wrote:Protoss not doing well in this season
wow, i knew it was bad, but thats plain ugly and gross as hell.
|
Biggest problem I have playing protoss in high diamond is most of our T2 tech are basically gimmicks. The only non-gimmick unit (immortal) needs to be balanced to be more even against all units instead of amazing against certain ones and close to useless against others. Its everything that a SC2 unit shouldn't be... make it weaker against roach/marauder/tank and stronger against non-armored units.
You don't see builds with void rays because they are so fragile but high damage. This leads them to being used for rushes/all-in plays but almost never as a complimentary unit to an army. Phoenixes are very risky against Terran and dangerous against Zerg because of the timing pushes that going Phoenix opens you up to. (PS: I use phoenixes very often in PvZ and understand they can be strong but one fungal growth will destroy you're entire investment)
DTs are somewhat the same way. The only matchup where I feel DTs can be used as they should be (gotten mid-late instead of rushed and used for map control/harassment/even as part of an army) is PvZ. PvT and PvP they are just all-in hit or miss rushes.
Our other T2 units are gateway units with council upgrades. Charge and Blink are both amazing but suffer from expensive costs (charge should be 150/150 like blink at least) and are almost always delayed because of the omnipresent need for a robo.
Something I personally would love to see is increased sentry starting energy. Or maybe just energy cost reduction on guardian shield/hallucination. Because of how the AI auto-targets casters (and because they are fragile/slow) its very common to lose your sentries in any early/mid-game engagement. This would also help early-game.. you would need less sentries to be "safe" which would make your small gateway army stronger in an actual fight.
Re-reading this it sounds like I'm whining a lot but I actually think Protoss is not underpowered. I would like to see the race made less gimmicky and a couple of small buffs but its not nearly as weak as some people think.
And yes its true that at the top level there are fewer protoss because it is seen as the gimmick/"easy" race with less potential. I would love for them to change some of the units to be stronger in more situations but not so ungodly powerful in certain ones (immortal vs armored/phoenix vs muta/early VR vs light anti air ECT). I think it would make the game better overall.
|
On November 02 2010 22:44 xephon wrote:Protoss not doing well in this season
A lot of that is imo due to Protoss playing dated builds vs Zerg, they're trying to pull off things that just don't work anymore since the last patch.
Also TvP looks to be the most even MU in this GSL.
|
On November 02 2010 03:23 Jacobs Ladder wrote:
I think over all, toss are fine. We may be a bit too build restricted and reactionary, but over all, most of the toss eliminations have been good matches.
Yeah you can't really complain, Protoss has always been a reactionary race even in BW. That's why I stuck with it, although it is difficult to react properly at all times because of the stage the game is in.
|
BTW here are some things off the top of my head to make the units less gimmicky without being overpowered (numbers would need to be tweaked obviously)
Immortal: Reduce damage vs armored by a good amount (10-15?). Increase normal damage slightly (5-7?). Reduce build cost slightly (maybe 200 75?). Increase shield amount but lower HP (not hurt quite as bad by emp)
Phoenix: Allow to shoot while beaming (effective in smaller numbers and not such a liability against early pushes). Increase durability (hp or shields). Remove firing while moving. Maybe increase range by one or something so they can still be microd against mutas but not like it is now. Something like the way stalkers micro against marines. (this might be too much)
VR: Honestly its really hard to balance this. If you make it more durable or less costly it would be too strong. I think it should probably stay in the role it has now.
Archon: Increase durability but lower damage. Increase range by 1 (might be too much)
I think another idea is to allow sentries to hallucinate an observer. This solves some of the robo dependency while keeping detection fairly expensive (hallucination upgrade and 100 energy). Allowing permanent observers from the other tech structures by letting them be trained at the Nexus would be too strong but I think temporary ones from from hallucination would be fine.
|
This would fix Protoss: Swap Colossus with Reaver.
|
On November 02 2010 23:13 adrift wrote:
BTW here are some things off the top of my head to make the units less gimmicky without being overpowered (numbers would need to be tweaked obviously)
Immortal: Reduce damage vs armored by a good amount (10-15?). Increase normal damage slightly (5-7?). Reduce build cost slightly (maybe 200 75?). Increase shield amount but lower HP (not hurt quite as bad by emp)
Phoenix: Allow to shoot while beaming (effective in smaller numbers and not such a liability against early pushes). Increase durability (hp or shields). Remove firing while moving. Maybe increase range by one or something so they can still be microd against mutas but not like it is now. Something like the way stalkers micro against marines. (this might be too much)
VR: Honestly its really hard to balance this. If you make it more durable or less costly it would be too strong. I think it should probably stay in the role it has now.
Archon: Increase durability but lower damage. Increase range by 1 (might be too much)
I think another idea is to allow sentries to hallucinate an observer. This solves some of the robo dependency while keeping detection fairly expensive (hallucination upgrade and 100 energy). Allowing permanent observers from the other tech structures by letting them be trained at the Nexus would be too strong but I think temporary ones from from hallucination would be fine.
as far as i know this isnt allowed on tl.
and you guys are actually funny saying immortals are awesome vs some units... roaches. period.
well, maybe ultralisks but only with decent zealot support. oh forgot vikings -.-. stalkers die to everything, vs. immo its not an exception
|
On November 02 2010 23:13 adrift wrote:
BTW here are some things off the top of my head to make the units less gimmicky without being overpowered (numbers would need to be tweaked obviously)
Immortal: Reduce damage vs armored by a good amount (10-15?). Increase normal damage slightly (5-7?). Reduce build cost slightly (maybe 200 75?). Increase shield amount but lower HP (not hurt quite as bad by emp)
Phoenix: Allow to shoot while beaming (effective in smaller numbers and not such a liability against early pushes). Increase durability (hp or shields). Remove firing while moving. Maybe increase range by one or something so they can still be microd against mutas but not like it is now. Something like the way stalkers micro against marines. (this might be too much)
VR: Honestly its really hard to balance this. If you make it more durable or less costly it would be too strong. I think it should probably stay in the role it has now.
Archon: Increase durability but lower damage. Increase range by 1 (might be too much)
I think another idea is to allow sentries to hallucinate an observer. This solves some of the robo dependency while keeping detection fairly expensive (hallucination upgrade and 100 energy). Allowing permanent observers from the other tech structures by letting them be trained at the Nexus would be too strong but I think temporary ones from from hallucination would be fine.
Archons should be massive, they don't do shit against terran bio because of concussive shells. They are supposed to be good against bio.
|
On November 02 2010 22:40 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 21:59 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 21:48 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 21:40 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 21:22 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 20:07 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 19:47 ensis wrote:On November 02 2010 19:22 oZii wrote:
a 14 hatch isn't safe where do you ppl get this idea. Its not just safe except to cheese. 3 gate pressure expand push can break a 14 hatch after its up its not made out of teflon lol. You have to force the zerg to not drone hard and put pressure.
You dont wall against terran unless you want your pylon or gateways sniped we dont have auto-cast repair for our building thats why its ok to wall as terran. Though many terrans dont wall against protoss now either.
Any expand is risky cause your spending money on the CC nexus or whatever. Doesnt matter if its FE or not. Its easier to expand later because you can get a better army to help defend but that doesnt mean that 400 minerals or 300 for hatch can't cost you at the next engagement if the opponent pushes at the right time.
genus expanded in every game except for blink stalkers if he didnt expand in any of them you would be saying OMG allin 1 base noob.
so out of 4 games he didn't expand 1 time so where is your example of Protoss not going for macro style games? kcdc 1 gate FE huk uses this build alot. 3 gate expand against zerg. Do you even know any protoss builds? 2 gate robo allows you to expand depending on match up or situation. 2 gate stargate expand in PvZ. 2 gate fe in PvZ, 1 gate robo alows for expand in PvT. It all depends on the information and situation. Its not like there aren't macro orientated build out there for protoss. i have about 600 points and countless games more than you, you are that low level teir of players, where protoss is stronger than terran. i´m not surprised that you own zergs with 3 gate, but this never happens at a pro level and very rarely even on my- still low- level. i dont say that protoss cannot win the macro game or that protoss players dont want the macro game. but for some freaking reason you still fail to explain, no top-level protoss player actually wants to play a macro game straight up without advantage. if protoss wanted this, he would just expand off 2 gate robo or 3 gate robo and tech up nice and smoothly. but it never happens. either they rush for an expansion hoping to get away with it, or they try to do some damage with voidrays or blinkstalkers. note; only speaking about pvt, because pvz is a complete mess right now without any structure. sorry to offend you, but dont call me a noob, just because i have not the same oppinion. Regardless of how many points you have or How many games you have played the title of the Thread is GSL no where did I bring my own experiences, Points on Ladder or how many games I played into the discussion, now as this thread progressed other tournaments have been brought into the discussion. I didnt call you a noob I was saying that you are referring Genius play as cheesy. If he stayed on 1 base people would be saying he was going for all-in 1 base play. You can't say that protoss players doesn't go for Macro games you are so Generalizing everyone that plays Toss. Then you talk about expansions in tournaments when I gave you an example in GSL only 1 game did Genius not expand and isn't it common practice and widely known that You push then expand right? Genius attacked with Voids then Expanded by forcing ITR to stay in his base a bit longer. If you see you have a better unit composition and feel that you can do massive damage or win out right why shouldnt you push? As you push you expand isn't that basic Starcraft mentality? You say no macro without advantage now if we stick with PvT matchups many Protoss go 1 gate FE or 2 gate robo into expand. If the expand doesnt hold because the Terran goes allin rax of course it can fall. Or the terran can see the expand and go expand himself I have seen this numerous times I watch streams like all day long I watch more than I play I havent missed GSL yet this season so I dont get where you get this idea of protoss doesnt want to macro. I point to protoss builds that are designed to allow expansion either fast or not. You are just throwing out there No Protoss wants to macro without citing any examples from GSL besides the 1 game of 4 that genius didnt expand. Genius expands almost every matchup but less in PvP but thats hard for many to do in PvP. Blizzcon? he FE or expanded more than he did not. Artosis refers to Genius as a macro orientated Protoss several times in the broadcast during the series Genius got eliminated. See how I am pointing to examples of high level tournaments were a toss expands specifically Genius. Saying that its the mentality of the Protoss player base as a whole as the reasoning why toss isn't doing well at all is generalization. Which makes no sense other wise people like KCDC don't come up with builds like the FE or minigun posts strategies of Blink stalker expand in PvP. There are more protoss players than any of the other races. So pointing to just players mindset is impractical. you said that i wouldnt know any protoss builds, this has nothing to do with gsl and thats why i said that. and you talked about 3 gate vs. zerg. havent seen any in gsl, may be mistaking. at least its not standard. also, its about gsl and not about genius vs itr, therefore generalizations are required. and if you want to talk about this match so badly; 1. game: macrogame? nope. 2 base timing push, terran was not prepared and itr didnt play well the whole game. 2. game: cheese from protoss. 3. game: terran cheese. 4. game: a macro game. protoss got his 2nd up a lot earlier, but didnt do damage. got roflstomped by terran. maybe he should have taken his 3rd earlier, but i dont think this would have changed anything. voids are just wasted tech in mid-lategame. so where is the macro oriented nex-genius? right, he´s dead! the games we should actually talk about are 1st and 4th. both went basically the same way, but turned out completely differnt. the other two are not any relevant except you want to talk about how imbalanced thors+ repair are. did you know that one scv has almost the repair of a medivac heal? so the two options are protoss can compete macro-wise, then you basically say, genius screwed up in game 4. or protoss cannot win an even macro war vs mules and stuff and itr somehow screwed up game 1. so, which is yours? or do you think, both screwed up and the macro-abilities are even? 1) ... regardless what the unit composition is including void rays. If Genius pushed saw that he wouldn't do significant damage im pretty sure he would have back out since he was ahead and macro up. If the game doesnt go to a 5 base Game who's fault is that? The terrans? Because he attacked and didnt let the protoss ..... youre brilliant, you say, genius would have played the macro game, becuase he was ahead to prove me wrong on my statement that protoss needs to have some sort of advantage. brilliant, really. See this is where your thought process is flawed regarding the topic. Nobody is 15 CC and 15 nexus NOBODY in PvT they can but then you say OMG Risky. Basic DAY9 fundamentals of RTS especially starcraft tell you to Expand as you Push what is so hard to understand about what I wrote. Terran is not Zerg and neither is Protoss they arent hatch first against each wtf. Since your trying to be so smart here. How does Genius know he is ahead? He doesn't he only knows it once he pushes out like all good little boys and girls do in starcraft as he is expanding then he sees his opponents base and knows he is ahead. What makes Genius ahead? A better unit composition? Maybe the fact that he has expanded and Is about equal or Greater on food were as his opponent is turtling. Genius is unaware or anyone is unaware that they are head only if they scout. So from your viewpoint your looking at it like every push while expand is bad when that is basic fundamentals of starcraft so no I didn't prove your point at all. If you think pushing while expansion is bad when everyone does it then you must be just 4 gating. You say go 2 gate robo you can push with that you know? You dont have to play defense which is what it sounds like your saying that protoss must turtle 2 3 bases and that every push is all in regardless if there is a expansion or not. KCDC FE is a defensive build you don't push with your initial units is there an advantage to that build when you expand? No, but then you will counter with but its risky!!! I honestly don't know what game your playing or watching. yeah, and again, you know everything about that game. send me a greeting card from korea with your first wcg and gsl title -.- live on in your world of phantasy starcraft. you know? you arent right just because you are screaming the loudest. and you cannot read it seems. i never said anything about pushing is bad. i say, that protoss needs and advantage, be it by dealing damage or distracting the enemy with a push or getting a nexus pretty early. and thats why i think protoss are doing bad. btw. you still fail to give a decent explanation why protoss arent doing well in gsl. in addition to gsl. protoss ladder-ranks are dwindling even further every weak. right now we are at 24 protoss i think in the global top 100. whereas protoss is the most played race in diamond. well, the point is not the number itself, but the trend. and it would be all good, if there were 4 zergs and 3 terrans and 1 protoss in gsl, because the terrans and zergplayers are all old bw progamers and the protoss just got lucky. but its not that way. i cannot believe that protoss players are just plain bad, i just cannot believe. especially since protoss was said to be overpowered during early beta, this means, that if protoss is op, protoss players are winning tournaments like those. also its a bit odd, that the only foreigners in gsl are terrans (idra is korean imo).
I agree to disagree  you have strong points some I agree with some I don't neither of us will figure out nothing wrong with healthy debate in the end we will still have our opinions but thats what forums are for.
|
Haha, as ClouD so epically stated in IRC the MetaWhine has shifted.
|
Immortals are awesome and underused, huk made 3 of them early in each his PvT in EG Masters, that made him "push proof", first time I saw that and he did really well. That makes sense obviously, even against marine, in small numers marines and marauders waste so much shoot against immortals, they are awesome tanks.
What I don't get is you never see any protoss make more than 2 or 3 of them. They cost 100 minerals more than siege tanks and less gaz, and they take so long to kill and make so much damage they worth it im(m)o. I'm sure if they were a terran unit, there would be OP whine about them :D
Well, I guess there reasons for this underuse, but seeing huk make a lot of them very fast against terran and rape very convincigly makes me wonder what are those reasons.
|
I disagree with messing with the immortal. Right now it's main real use is against Marauder/Roach, because 1 immortal is the same cost as 2 stalker, and we all know how hard 2 stalker are going to blow against 2 marauder while the immortal will win.
Main cause of all these drastic imbalances at top level play is because Blizzard isn't balancing the game for top level play. Unfortunately because Protoss is the strongest race at lower level play it's going to get nerfed the hardest and lag severely at top level play. Blizzard needs to hire former progamer because the casuals they have on their balancing team suck.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
