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On November 02 2010 18:35 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:21 ensis wrote:
well, yes, protoss players tend to cheese. especially vs terran. but the question is, why are they doing this? why are they going for hidden techs? why are they going for risky expansions? well, the option is quite simple; going for a macro game. yes, koreans are quite cheesy in the first place, but the cheesiness of protoss is so frequent, that it is standard.
especially this gets appearant the further a tournament like this goes. in both quarterfinals of gsl, protoss did horribly. they always chose to cheese or go for a risky expansion. the question is, why are they doing this? the obvious answer would be, that no protoss is confident enough to win a macro game. now there is the question wether are they plain bad....all together or are they just right and they really wouldnt stand a chance.
the pvz in this season were quite poor, almost every match boiled down to either a canonrush or a canon expo followed by a roach rush. it was disgusting. pvt were quite the same. either 1 gate core fe or some one-base cheese (watch hopetorture vs genius for a awesome example).
so what happened? i basically think that terran and zerg just developped new, better ways to play their race. protoss on the other hand has been pretty much the same shit since beta period. but its not like the protoss are lazy, actually the protoss is the race that exploits their abilities at its best.
just think about it. what is more frequent? a protoss forgetting to add hts or a terran not caring about adding ghosts? you know the answer.
also, protoss players are doing everything to gain as much mapcontrol as possible.
question, how often do you see sensor towers used???? right, never.
also both races have great harrass abilities, be it little things like zerglings or contaminate or big things like nydus or baneling drops into the eco.
or just benshees or drops with 2 medivacs instasniping a nexus.
protoss has nothing to compete.
therefore protoss has pretty much boiled down to cheesing, to get somewhat of an advantage. A 14 or 15 hatch first build is Risky A 2 rax expand is Risky A Quick banshee is risky Fast mutas are Risky Every race wants their tech hidden Rushing to tech is risky if they mass units and push hard because your betting your minerals to get that tech up quickly. Terrans always hide their tech outside of 3 rax most of the time you can see the 1 or 2 more rax going down with the initial 9 scout. Spires and baneling nests usually go behind the mineral line anything not at the front of the base is hidden tech really. Its easier for the other races to get the information with out really hurting the path they take to get to the tech. You point to a Macro game is the weakness of toss but every toss should want more money even Genius that went with the void ray build expanded off of it how is that cheesy? PPL associate the void ray as cheese even if that shit floats in there base at the 20 minute mark when a Zerg can have 30 mutas and crush a mineral line by that time and escape easily. Macro is not the problem of protoss at all.
I am horrible at games that go longer than 20 minutes. One zerg have map control with mutas and creep and terran have walled themselves in at every expansion while still doing drops all over the place, i find it hard to just survive let alone kill my opponent. My response? I've been practicing 3 gate blink stalkers all in lately and it works.
This is the problem, protoss are all about timing pushes to the point where protoss are all-in in almost every situation. Maybe one day a protoss will figure out how to play out a long drawn macro game against zerg or terran, but until that day comes most protoss will probably just play timing pushes and all-ins because frankly, they work and everything else doesn't.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being forced to go robo first against Terran. Protoss went X gate into robo in SC1 for 12 years and that never stopped innovation. Just as with SC1, if you choose not to open robo then you are at extreme risk from banshee (vultures) - but if they don't go banshee you are fine. You take that gamble and that gamble is completely fine.
Protoss are weak to Terran in the early game purely because there are a few strategies that require precision counters. As already discussed, banshee require observer or you lose, thor pushes require immortals, banshee/marine pushes require stalker/colossus, various X rax builds require a certain number of sentries not to die etc. All of these strategies are perfectly counterable by the protoss given sufficient information - but without that information it's instant gg. That's why good Terrans (like boxer) do things to keep the protoss confused and in the dark - hiding banshees is GG, weird thor pushes after banshee is also gg without immortals - exploiting protoss like that is the key to winning. Protoss aren't good enough at reading Terran to be able to play safe just yet.
If you enter into a standard macro game, with current trends in playstyle, Protoss have the advantage but I'm not convinced that lategame is imbalanced just yet. There are a multitude of strategies which are untested since most players put winning first (i.e. they have to exploit protoss weakness) and thus aren't as experienced in the midgame. Give it some time then we can draw more conclusions on this front.
I also think PvZ is zerg favoured at the moment mostly because
- Protoss playstyles have had to adjust radically since roach buff and zergs style haven't had to adjust
- PvZ isn't that well understood yet from the P perspective
- Late game zerg is unstoppable with the current metagame trends
We really need to go back to the drawing board and reevaluate what we're doing in this matchup. I don't think it's imbalanced since there is such a lack of information and we're only just really experimenting now. We can talk about this again in a few months time.
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On November 02 2010 18:06 Sniffy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:02 QuantumTheory wrote:Idk how people can say that it's because P doesn't have a "hero" that they aren't doing well right now. Try being that hero when you have to be INSANELY better than your opponent in the upper echelons of play. Protoss are doing extremely well actually. GSL is the only place they aren't. You have to be insanely better? What exactly is this based off? They're probably the simplest race in the game. This thread is pure whining now, which is a shame because the start was actually intelligent.
kind of off-topic as it doesn't pertain to the GSL, but them doing extremely well isn't all that true. i'm not sure why protoss get labeled as the simplest race, either. what a stupid carryover from BW.
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On November 02 2010 04:25 dutpotd wrote:
If the observer was built out of the Nexus, and available after any of the tier 2 structures (robo/stargate/council) were up then we would see things open up, see fewer all-ins, and earlier use of the high tier units that frankly aren't that high tier (as someone pointed out Carriers are pretty easily countered, same with Templar). Zerg has detection come from a vital/ingrained building (Lair) and so does Terran, Toss has to choose 1 of 3 tech routes to get detection - hell, to get decent scouting (okay, that is wrong, phoenix and hallucination is also very viable).
- dut
Such a good idea.
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Really like observer being built from Nexus idea, it would open Protoss up A LOT more.
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In my opinion, the following things should be fixed:
1) Charge. While Marauders have no cooldown for conc. shells, I'd like this to be the same for charge.
Was leg speed for zealots imba in BW? I doubt it.
2) Tech. DTs and HTs are separate. I don't see any reason why they should be. Was that imba in BW? Again, no.
Yes, the game isn't the same, but everyone has to go robo now...
3) Mothership. You can't use this unit vs a person who is on your level or better.
4) Carriers are useless...
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Or buff the Stalker's DPS would be a good idea....it's the most expensive t1.5 unit in the game shoot lmao
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On November 02 2010 18:34 HuHEN wrote:
Protoss,
1: 1a
2: FFFFFF
3: move colossus back
4: (return to pylon) 3sssz
5: 4c
6: 5ee
7: select units warping in ctrl1
8: back to the battle
Wow that was the worst comeback ever!
let me shoot 1 right back at you.
"Ohhhhhhhhhh Terran has 4 less steps IMBA TERRAN"
IMBAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Anyway, I'm intersted to see what Protoss is turned into next patch, exciting stuff.
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Germany1697 Posts
I want to try to explain my thoughts on this, without actually QQing....
I think one of the most important problems are the new "basic" units Blizz threw into the game.
Each race got 1 more "basic" unit. T =Marauder, Z = Roach, P = Sentry. Lets look at these a bit closer.
Marauder =
- Insanly strong attack (especially vs armored)
- 125 HP + 1 Armor
- viable in early, mid and late game
Roach:
- Strong attack with good range since patch 1.1.2
- quite fast on and off creep (faster than Zealot which is important)
- 140 HP and +1 Armor
- viable in early, mid and late game (not entirely neccessary in early game vs T anymore because no reapers)
Sentry:
- 40/40, no armor
- much more expansive than Roach or Marauder
- Attack damage pretty much useless
- viable (neccessary) in early game to survive any early push (mass sling, bling ore MM) BUT not viable in later stages of the game. Only gives a little extra due to guardian shield but since its HP is so low it can be sniped by mutas too easily
-> P needs Sentries to survive and hold a ramp ´BUT also needs units that actually do damage. Bth come from Gates so players have to deceide, Sentries or attacking units
-> P can FF a ramp 10 times in a row with enough Sentries. Problem is, that P needs to build more and more sentries, while not being able to tech because of the amount of gas sunk into sentries (This is important to note!!)
At the same time, T can wait down the ramp and reinforce (usually from 1rax reactor and 1rax techlab) and get CS and Stim without having to be afraid of anything P can build. After the 10 FF to hold the ramp, the T army is even more superior than it was before because of CS (no micro for P anymore) and Stim (insta kill gateway units) and alot more attacking units than P can get.
P has 2 options then. Stay alive and die in mid or late game because theer is no way to keep up in macro after this scenario or try to expo fast which can work but also dies to most of the build a T can throw at you.
Imagine, these 3 Units were not in the game. Of course, due to late game and T2/3 units it wouldnt be balanced anymore and I dont want these units to be gone. Actually I like them but I think that most part of early game imbalances come from these 3 units.
Some people already pointed out that P needs a unit to harass. I agree. While Z and T can be agressive, P has to be passive in order to survive. Its ok when there is one race being more passive than others but i dont think Blizz intention was to make P THAT passive in early- mid game
One more thing to note. Even with the roach buff, P has good chances against Z because it is more viable to get into a macro game.
I see more of a problem in PvT. T can do a variation of builds that are all very viable and transfer into macro oriented play quite well. P cant because of limitation of options (Many of these have been pointed out already like messed up techtree etc...)
Once a P enters T3 in late game with one base ahead of T, there is this little window where P seems to be very strong, but seriously: How often do you see a game like this in top level play? almost never! because of the totaly messed up early game in TvP
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On November 02 2010 18:50 .kv wrote:
Or buff the Stalker's DPS would be a good idea....it's the most expensive t1.5 unit in the game shoot lmao
Stalkers are strong already in some situations. Buffing their dps would probably make them OP.
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On November 02 2010 18:37 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:30 gotMilk wrote:On November 02 2010 18:27 HuHEN wrote:
Terran,
1:1a,
2: t
3: *SUPER HARD MACRO PART BEWARE* 3 DDDDDD (5ss if they are REALLY good)
4. repeat from step one.
Enlighten me on the situation Protoss would be doing during this moment  1. Check map for cloaked banshees 2. Check map for marauder drops 3. Check map for viking drops 4. Check map for tank drops 5. Check ramp for stim rushes 6. Check to make sure observer isn't about to be scanned 7. Check to make sure there are no ghosts in the opposing army. 8. Micro units so that you don't lose to kiting 9. Click on W, make a few units at a pylon
That's why low-level TvP is imbalanced in favour of Protoss and high-level TvP is imbalanced in favour of Terran, because Terran is so easy to play. Wait, what?
Point 3 is funny though. "OH F*** A DROPSHIP IN MY BASE THE MARAUDERS WILL KILL ALL MY TE... ah nevermind dude, he dropped some Vikings"
But my message to everyone is, don't fall into that trap thinking that you are always way better than your opponent just because you are doing the things you listed there. If you are laddering you are playing opponents that are as good as you are and do the same things you do. If you always think you are better than your opponent, then you are a fool and shouldn't take part in a discussion about balance. Balance doesn't really matter until the top 1% players, people should learn from the SC1 attitude. If you lose it's your fault, you just suck. Don't blame the game.
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Im not saying im better than my opponents, all im saying is Terran is RIDICULOUSLY easy to play, the toss is easier line is so retarded.
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On November 02 2010 18:54 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:37 darmousseh wrote:On November 02 2010 18:30 gotMilk wrote:On November 02 2010 18:27 HuHEN wrote:
Terran,
1:1a,
2: t
3: *SUPER HARD MACRO PART BEWARE* 3 DDDDDD (5ss if they are REALLY good)
4. repeat from step one.
Enlighten me on the situation Protoss would be doing during this moment 1. Check map for cloaked banshees 2. Check map for marauder drops 3. Check map for viking drops 4. Check map for tank drops 5. Check ramp for stim rushes 6. Check to make sure observer isn't about to be scanned 7. Check to make sure there are no ghosts in the opposing army. 8. Micro units so that you don't lose to kiting 9. Click on W, make a few units at a pylon That's why low-level TvP is imbalanced in favour of Protoss and high-level TvP is imbalanced in favour of Terran, because Terran is so easy to play. Wait, what? Point 3 is funny though. "OH F*** A DROPSHIP IN MY BASE THE MARAUDERS WILL KILL ALL MY TE... ah nevermind dude, he dropped some Vikings" But my message to everyone is, don't fall into that trap thinking that you are always way better than your opponent just because you are doing the things you listed there. If you are laddering you are playing opponents that are as good as you are and do the same things you do. If you always think you are better than your opponent, then you are a fool and shouldn't take part in a discussion about balance. Balance doesn't really matter until the top 1% players, people should learn from the SC1 attitude. If you lose it's your fault, you just suck. Don't blame the game.
Lol, yeah vikings aren't the scariest thing in the world. Actually pvt is the easiest matchup for me right now because of a 3 gate blink stalker timing push i use, but against someone who doesn't blidly FE against protoss, it's quite a bit harder. Usually 1-5 just means watch the minimap constantly and 6 is to actually micro ur observer. 7 is a lot harder since its tough to notice it and 8 is really tough because if u are 1/2 a second behind on microing you can lose like 20 supply in 2-3 seconds.
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On November 02 2010 18:38 Ancient.eu wrote:
Protoss is harder to play against terran at higher levels and players just need to learn to play the game better before we will see good results from protoss players.
While Protoss are still finding their comfort zones, pros from Z and T are already settling and cutting their lose ends. Will we even see pro Protoss catch up? I am really hoping a hero emerges soon from the Protoss population because my hope is running dry, and I find myself cheering on the other races most of the time.
+ Show Spoiler +Kyrix vs FoxeR series in GSL2 has insane micro so imagine a refined/perfected form of FoxeR's micro against collosus and HT storms. It could potentially be disastrous for the Protoss opponent but this is just a theory that has yet to be tested.
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On November 02 2010 18:17 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:06 Sniffy wrote:On November 02 2010 18:02 QuantumTheory wrote:Idk how people can say that it's because P doesn't have a "hero" that they aren't doing well right now. Try being that hero when you have to be INSANELY better than your opponent in the upper echelons of play. Protoss are doing extremely well actually. GSL is the only place they aren't. You have to be insanely better? What exactly is this based off? They're probably the simplest race in the game. This thread is pure whining now, which is a shame because the start was actually intelligent. What defines simple? At your bronze level play perhaps protoss is the simplest race. Have you ever tried holding an expansion against a mindless mouthbreathing 3 rax terran? It takes tons more skill to hold that off than to just mass units off 3 rax.
Perhaps simplest was an exaggeration. The idea that a Protoss has to do "insanely" better to win is laughable though. They don't require any more skill to play than Terran does. 3 rax is a very easy strat to execute but it is also not hard to beat. Similar to something like 4gate I spose. 
And you assume I'm bronze because I say something that contradicts what you think is true?
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On November 02 2010 18:35 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:21 ensis wrote:
well, yes, protoss players tend to cheese. especially vs terran. but the question is, why are they doing this? why are they going for hidden techs? why are they going for risky expansions? well, the option is quite simple; going for a macro game. yes, koreans are quite cheesy in the first place, but the cheesiness of protoss is so frequent, that it is standard.
especially this gets appearant the further a tournament like this goes. in both quarterfinals of gsl, protoss did horribly. they always chose to cheese or go for a risky expansion. the question is, why are they doing this? the obvious answer would be, that no protoss is confident enough to win a macro game. now there is the question wether are they plain bad....all together or are they just right and they really wouldnt stand a chance.
the pvz in this season were quite poor, almost every match boiled down to either a canonrush or a canon expo followed by a roach rush. it was disgusting. pvt were quite the same. either 1 gate core fe or some one-base cheese (watch hopetorture vs genius for a awesome example).
so what happened? i basically think that terran and zerg just developped new, better ways to play their race. protoss on the other hand has been pretty much the same shit since beta period. but its not like the protoss are lazy, actually the protoss is the race that exploits their abilities at its best.
just think about it. what is more frequent? a protoss forgetting to add hts or a terran not caring about adding ghosts? you know the answer.
also, protoss players are doing everything to gain as much mapcontrol as possible.
question, how often do you see sensor towers used???? right, never.
also both races have great harrass abilities, be it little things like zerglings or contaminate or big things like nydus or baneling drops into the eco.
or just benshees or drops with 2 medivacs instasniping a nexus.
protoss has nothing to compete.
therefore protoss has pretty much boiled down to cheesing, to get somewhat of an advantage. A 14 or 15 hatch first build is Risky A 2 rax expand is Risky A Quick banshee is risky Fast mutas are Risky Every race wants their tech hidden Rushing to tech is risky if they mass units and push hard because your betting your minerals to get that tech up quickly. Terrans always hide their tech outside of 3 rax most of the time you can see the 1 or 2 more rax going down with the initial 9 scout. Spires and baneling nests usually go behind the mineral line anything not at the front of the base is hidden tech really. Its easier for the other races to get the information with out really hurting the path they take to get to the tech. You point to a Macro game is the weakness of toss but every toss should want more money even Genius that went with the void ray build expanded off of it how is that cheesy? PPL associate the void ray as cheese even if that shit floats in there base at the 20 minute mark when a Zerg can have 30 mutas and crush a mineral line by that time and escape easily. Macro is not the problem of protoss at all.
yeah 14 hatch is risky, but its risky because it fails to a cheese build. with a normal 12 or 14 gw you cannot kill a hatch before pool. and the zerg just lets you know, that hes doing 14 hatch.
the early expansions protoss players are using are countered afterwards.
if a 14 hatch gets hardcountered by a proxy gate, then the counter was build before the 14 hatch.
if a 1 gate core fe gets hardcountered the counter is set up after he has seen the expo. thats the difference in risk.
yeah, you want your tech hidden, but you dont build it somewhere around the map like genius did with his council. also a difference, zerg says, ok, i place it behind my minerals, hope he doesnt sees it, but if he sees it its not that big of a deal. thats the difference in hiding techs. as you say it, every race wants their tech hidden, but only protoss are building tech outside of the main. while zergs and terran could to it the same way.
and with your 3 rax, yeah, thats the problem. protoss wont put up 3 additional gw for a 4 gate push in front of the scv. terrans just dont care in your example, they smack the rax in your face and say, deal with it bitch!. btw i never seen any terran building the rax before the rine kills my probe.
and if you say, protoss has the ability to win a macro war. why arent they doing it? can you please at least explain this to me?
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Russian Federation122 Posts
On November 02 2010 18:53 Sewi wrote:
I want to try to explain my thoughts on this, without actually QQing....
I think one of the most important problems are the new "basic" units Blizz threw into the game.
Each race got 1 more "basic" unit. T =Marauder, Z = Roach, P = Sentry. Lets look at these a bit closer.
Marauder =
- Insanly strong attack (especially vs armored)
- 125 HP + 1 Armor
- viable in early, mid and late game
Roach:
- Strong attack with good range since patch 1.1.2
- quite fast on and off creep (faster than Zealot which is important)
- 140 HP and +1 Armor
- viable in early, mid and late game (not entirely neccessary in early game vs T anymore because no reapers)
Sentry:
- 40/40, no armor
- much more expansive than Roach or Marauder
- Attack damage pretty much useless
- viable (neccessary) in early game to survive any early push (mass sling, bling ore MM) BUT not viable in later stages of the game. Only gives a little extra due to guardian shield but since its HP is so low it can be sniped by mutas too easily
-> P needs Sentries to survive and hold a ramp ´BUT also needs units that actually do damage. Bth come from Gates so players have to deceide, Sentries or attacking units
-> P can FF a ramp 10 times in a row with enough Sentries. Problem is, that P needs to build more and more sentries, while not being able to tech because of the amount of gas sunk into sentries (This is important to note!!)
At the same time, T can wait down the ramp and reinforce (usually from 1rax reactor and 1rax techlab) and get CS and Stim without having to be afraid of anything P can build. After the 10 FF to hold the ramp, the T army is even more superior than it was before because of CS (no micro for P anymore) and Stim (insta kill gateway units) and alot more attacking units than P can get.
P has 2 options then. Stay alive and die in mid or late game because theer is no way to keep up in macro after this scenario or try to expo fast which can work but also dies to most of the build a T can throw at you.
Imagine, these 3 Units were not in the game. Of course, due to late game and T2/3 units it wouldnt be balanced anymore and I dont want these units to be gone. Actually I like them but I think that most part of early game imbalances come from these 3 units.
Some people already pointed out that P needs a unit to harass. I agree. While Z and T can be agressive, P has to be passive in order to survive. Its ok when there is one race being more passive than others but i dont think Blizz intention was to make P THAT passive in early- mid game
One more thing to note. Even with the roach buff, P has good chances against Z because it is more viable to get into a macro game.
I see more of a problem in PvT. T can do a variation of builds that are all very viable and transfer into macro oriented play quite well. P cant because of limitation of options (Many of these have been pointed out already like messed up techtree etc...)
Once a P enters T3 in late game with one base ahead of T, there is this little window where P seems to be very strong, but seriously: How often do you see a game like this in top level play? almost never! because of the totaly messed up early game in TvP
Marauders are OK, concussive shells are not. With it marauders in early game become counter for all gate units.
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On November 02 2010 18:59 HuHEN wrote:
Im not saying im better than my opponents, all im saying is Terran is RIDICULOUSLY easy to play, the toss is easier line is so retarded that only 1800 diamond terrans could possibly believe it.
This is my first RTS and i would have to say that terran was way easier to learn than protoss. The tech tree is simple, the upgrades make sense and all units seem to be viable in most matchups and have the best t3 tech units in the game(thors, bcs, ghost nukes).
I enjoy playing protoss more because i like stalkers and zealots and the whole warp in mechanic, but the tech tree is really difficult. Tech switching is almost non existant since most games are really short.
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On November 02 2010 18:59 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:54 Bommes wrote:On November 02 2010 18:37 darmousseh wrote:On November 02 2010 18:30 gotMilk wrote:On November 02 2010 18:27 HuHEN wrote:
Terran,
1:1a,
2: t
3: *SUPER HARD MACRO PART BEWARE* 3 DDDDDD (5ss if they are REALLY good)
4. repeat from step one.
Enlighten me on the situation Protoss would be doing during this moment 1. Check map for cloaked banshees 2. Check map for marauder drops 3. Check map for viking drops 4. Check map for tank drops 5. Check ramp for stim rushes 6. Check to make sure observer isn't about to be scanned 7. Check to make sure there are no ghosts in the opposing army. 8. Micro units so that you don't lose to kiting 9. Click on W, make a few units at a pylon That's why low-level TvP is imbalanced in favour of Protoss and high-level TvP is imbalanced in favour of Terran, because Terran is so easy to play. Wait, what? Point 3 is funny though. "OH F*** A DROPSHIP IN MY BASE THE MARAUDERS WILL KILL ALL MY TE... ah nevermind dude, he dropped some Vikings" But my message to everyone is, don't fall into that trap thinking that you are always way better than your opponent just because you are doing the things you listed there. If you are laddering you are playing opponents that are as good as you are and do the same things you do. If you always think you are better than your opponent, then you are a fool and shouldn't take part in a discussion about balance. Balance doesn't really matter until the top 1% players, people should learn from the SC1 attitude. If you lose it's your fault, you just suck. Don't blame the game. Lol, yeah vikings aren't the scariest thing in the world. Actually pvt is the easiest matchup for me right now because of a 3 gate blink stalker timing push i use, but against someone who doesn't blidly FE against protoss, it's quite a bit harder. Usually 1-5 just means watch the minimap constantly and 6 is to actually micro ur observer. 7 is a lot harder since its tough to notice it and 8 is really tough because if u are 1/2 a second behind on microing you can lose like 20 supply in 2-3 seconds.
Yea that's right, but as a Terran you will face similar problems. 1 Missstep and you run into FFs instantly losing you the game because of splitting your army due to terrain, 1 moment no attention and storm kills your whole army, not only 20 supply.
I never said protoss is easier to play, I do think that it's harder from pure mechanics, I'm just saying that you shouldn't discuss about balance by making up unrealistic stuff you have to do in comparison to your opponent (in ladder, on the same skill level).
Discussing about balance by legitimating your opinion with your opponent's skill (level) is not and will never be a good basis for a discussion from my point of view, that's what I wanted to say. It's just too emotional and people are making up too much stuff.
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On November 02 2010 19:00 kalimari wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 18:38 Ancient.eu wrote:
Protoss is harder to play against terran at higher levels and players just need to learn to play the game better before we will see good results from protoss players. While Protoss are still finding their comfort zones, pros from Z and T are already settling and cutting their lose ends. Will we even see pro Protoss catch up? I am really hoping a hero emerges soon from the Protoss population because my hope is running dry, and I find myself cheering on the other races most of the time. + Show Spoiler +Kyrix vs FoxeR series in GSL2 has insane micro so imagine an refined/perfected form of FoxeR's micro against collosus and HT storms. It could potentially be disastrous for the Protoss opponent but this is just a theory that has yet to be tested.
+ Show Spoiler +a little micro helps to maximize the colossi splash so it'd make sense that a lot of micro would help to minimize it. storm is more about good placement but yea units avoid each other so easily in this game, i can see exceptional splits and pre-splits minimizing storms. i'll be very sad if they nerf storm :\
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EPT
