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[/QUOTE]
To me it feels like such a thing would be just zerg, but instead of being made of tissue, they're made of metal. And instead of playing like the massable zerg, they'd play more like the small group of Protoss. [/QUOTE]
Yeah, from the starcraft standpoint that's true. I was kinda replying to the people who are saying "there's no thematic room for a 4th race in the entirety of scifi 'lore' ".
If you get rid of the overmind and just think of "zerg" as really hostile bestial aliens that aren't necessarily all controlled by the same mind, then the differences emerge. It would obviously be really different to attack a planet where there's 4 or 5 different zerg broods fighting each other than attacking a planet controlled by the machine army.
Gameplay wise, (although a 4th race is obviously a terrible idea) you'd probably have to steal the "evolution" subtheme from zerg and make the focus of the machines be "upgrading" - as in your standard fighting unit can modify itself into more advanced units, etc.
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Yeah, from the starcraft standpoint that's true. I was kinda replying to the people who are saying "there's no thematic room for a 4th race in the entirety of scifi 'lore' ".
If you get rid of the overmind and just think of "zerg" as really hostile bestial aliens that aren't necessarily all controlled by the same mind, then the differences emerge. It would obviously be really different to attack a planet where there's 4 or 5 different zerg broods fighting each other than attacking a planet controlled by the machine army.
Gameplay wise, (although a 4th race is obviously a terrible idea) you'd probably have to steal the "evolution" subtheme from zerg and make the focus of the machines be "upgrading" - as in your standard fighting unit can modify itself into more advanced units, etc.
Thats the thing, creating a new "niche" for a new race necessarily involves carving out one of the elements of the existing races, because they're currently so broad. So you end up taking the "hive mind" or "evolution" or "assimilation" component of Zerg, or you take robots/ai, or "magic" type powers/mysticism, away from Protoss, just so the new race can have its own shtick.
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a lot of people are trying to argue and while i tried to keep an open mind, i just didn't find their arguments perplexing.
i agree with op.
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Right now, the races cover such a broad spectrum, that its hard to see what new units couldn't be easily made to fit into one of them.
edit: for example, say you wanted a unit based on the Terminator. It would be a really strong, "unstoppable" killing machine, and also a robot driven by AI.
How does that not make perfect thematic sense for the Protoss?
If you're looking at it from a starcraft perspective, then yeah, robots are protoss. But like you said, the spectrum is really broad, and you could theoretically distill the protoss race into focusing ONLY on psionic units. That frees up the space for a mechanical race.
I mean, if you think about it, the inclusion of robots with protoss is pretty arbitrary, since their whole deal is connecting spiritually with the khala which I assume robots can't do. If you think about other "protoss-like" characters in other sci-fi works, a lot of the time they're pitted against robots (jedi vs droid army in star wars, for example).
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Thats the thing, creating a new "niche" for a new race necessarily involves carving out one of the elements of the existing races, because they're currently so broad. So you end up taking the "hive mind" or "evolution" or "assimilation" component of Zerg, or you take robots/ai, or "magic" type powers/mysticism, away from Protoss, just so the new race can have its own shtick.
Sure, I think we agree on that. It'd be like trying to add a 6th color to magic or something. I'm just saying that a non-starcraft video game could theoretically be made where there are 4 unique races like the ones I described earlier.
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On September 12 2010 11:23 The_Pacifist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 11:21 awesomoecalypse wrote:The "hybrid" theme. And there's million and one ways to do it. The greatest strengths of Protoss and Zerg. And, their weaknesses as well. Creepy crawlies clad in a layer of psionic armor. Endless resurrections of the swarm. Etc. etc. This is in no way a "unique niche" in the sense of a different sci fi genre. I used to think "Pokemon will never get past the second generation. How many themes can you have for those monster things?" Pokemon isn't about different genres fighting each other Dark pokemon. Fire pokemon. Water pokemon. Steel, psychic, flying, ground, grass. Need I go on? EDIT: And they also have hybrids. 
You aren't thinking clearly. Water pokemons are pretty much hard counters to fire but that doesn't mean protoss > terran in SC2. What you're saying has no relavance because there is a TON of more variables in terran and protoss matchup than there is in fire vs water. Terran goes heavy marauders, gets countered by zealot, then counter with heavy marines than gets countered by storms. In pokemon, majority of the time a hydro pump on a fire pokemon is pretty GG. Yes, I know there are hybrids and whatnot but there is way more depth in sc2. Pokemon element types are on a totally different dimension and you cant compare it to sc2
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On September 12 2010 11:14 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +You could easily have an entirely machine based race work with different mechanics (ZING!). For instance it could have interchangeable parts and merge/collapse in order to be more effective. Like all units come from one base type (kind of like larva) or any sort of crazy machine idea. Mech are already Terran. Robots are already Protoss. Larva mechanics are already Zerg. Show nested quote +You could also make magic/spirit based race that doesn't really die but losses its ability to manifest itself in our universe. Protoss are already the spiritual race. By lore, they even have the "don't die" thing covered, being teleported off the battlefield so their spiritual essences can be turned into immortals.
Having vehicles or robots doesn't make a machine race... and the machine parts are analogous to how Zerg starts from 1 spot but not the same. All 3 races are biological in nature. Something like Terminator, Borg, Matrix, Screamers, etc could be another race.
Protoss have spirituality/religion but they are physical biological creatures that die with the exception of archons. Zealots(DTs?) are teleported when they are critically wounded in battle to be refit into goons/immortals, its not their spirit or essence its their physical body...
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All 3 races are biological in nature.
Probes, sentries, warp prisms, colossi, reavers, interceptors...
you were saying?
I think Toss have a pretty clear lock on the "ai/robot unit" niche.
Protoss have spirituality/religion but they are physical biological creatures with the exception of archons.
As you say, we already have a clear example of a transcendent, magical/psychic/spiritual being, and it fits perfectly into one of the existing races.
"Like Toss robot units, only ALL the units are robots." or "Like archons, only ALL their units are like that" is not nearly enough to justify an entirely new race.
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On September 12 2010 11:14 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +You could easily have an entirely machine based race work with different mechanics (ZING!). For instance it could have interchangeable parts and merge/collapse in order to be more effective. Like all units come from one base type (kind of like larva) or any sort of crazy machine idea. Mech are already Terran. Robots are already Protoss. Larva mechanics are already Zerg. Show nested quote +You could also make magic/spirit based race that doesn't really die but losses its ability to manifest itself in our universe. Protoss are already the spiritual race. By lore, they even have the "don't die" thing covered, being teleported off the battlefield so their spiritual essences can be turned into immortals.
Technically their spirits are turned into dragoons, actually. And they can't make any more of them, because the zerg have control of the place where all the spirits warped. Immortals are made by putting bigger guns on the last remaining dragoons.
Not that this takes away from your point, I just felt the need to correct you.
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Sure, I think we agree on that. It'd be like trying to add a 6th color to magic or something. I'm just saying that a non-starcraft video game could theoretically be made where there are 4 unique races like the ones I described earlier.
Sure, there could.
But as Starcraft is currently set up, literally any sci fi trope or unit type you can think of can fit neatly into one of the existing races. There is no niche which isn't currently encompassed by one of the races, because the races aren't built around one specific culture ala Warcraft, they're built around entire genres and everything in them.
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On September 12 2010 14:14 awesomoecalypse wrote:Probes, sentries, warp prisms, colossi, reavers, interceptors... you were saying? I think Toss have a pretty clear lock on the "ai/robot unit" niche. Show nested quote +Protoss have spirituality/religion but they are physical biological creatures with the exception of archons. As you say, we already have a clear example of a transcendent, magical/psychic/spiritual being, and it fits perfectly into one of the existing races. "Like Toss robot units, only ALL the units are robots." or "Like archons, only ALL their units are like that" is not nearly enough to justify an entirely new race.
Those are tools just like a tank is. Those are not intelligent AI's they are just scripted programs. I'm talking about an entire race that is self sufficient and advancing of only robots with no biology or it uses biological creatures like humans use machines. Have you ever seen the Terminator?
Protoss are no different than Terran or Zerg because when they actually die they don't come back. I don't think archons have been specified as to what they are exactly but having the assistance of a spiritual/psionic entity doesn't make your race magic/spiritual/energy based. The point is the Protoss aren't machines or spirits but they use them just like Terran are not machines but they use them.
I think you are just dense tbh.
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I'm sure they can balance a 4th race out, and I know they can find a distinct flavor for it. I don't think they will ever do it though cause it just won't pay to pull all that extra work in there. Or, they might just decide its a good excuse to add in another expansion pack.
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Call me a troll if you wish, but I honestly think that the OP, while he has sentient points, doesn't understand the power of creativity in a fantasy setting. Starcraft is very much fantasy ("sci-fi" is a misnomer), and yes, the current Zerg/Terran/Protoss has a very solid, very strong balance in both gameplay elements and themes. However, that doesn't mean that it can't be expanded upon with a fourth race. I've had fun trying to imagine possibilities that would distinguish a potential new alien race from the current three. With enough talented artists (and I mean artists in the broad definition), it would definitely be possible.
Is it going to happen?
Very unlikely.
But... I'd be hard pressed to buy two expansions without the promise of enough new content, and to me that means a fourth race.
=/
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On September 12 2010 14:18 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 11:14 awesomoecalypse wrote:You could easily have an entirely machine based race work with different mechanics (ZING!). For instance it could have interchangeable parts and merge/collapse in order to be more effective. Like all units come from one base type (kind of like larva) or any sort of crazy machine idea. Mech are already Terran. Robots are already Protoss. Larva mechanics are already Zerg. You could also make magic/spirit based race that doesn't really die but losses its ability to manifest itself in our universe. Protoss are already the spiritual race. By lore, they even have the "don't die" thing covered, being teleported off the battlefield so their spiritual essences can be turned into immortals. Technically their spirits are turned into dragoons, actually. And they can't make any more of them, because the zerg have control of the place where all the spirits warped. Immortals are made by putting bigger guns on the last remaining dragoons. Not that this takes away from your point, I just felt the need to correct you.
It's not their spirits it's their physical bodies, it says something like "when Zealots are critically wounded in battle they are teleported and put into the body of a goon". Instead of death they are put in other units. Think of Futurama with their heads in jars, thats what goons, stalkers, immortals are.
The rest of your lore is wrong I think but I'm not big on SC lore cept I have a good memory what I've read.
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On September 12 2010 13:40 DetriusXii wrote:
Excluding the hybrids, a fourth species did exist in the lore. The Protoss exterminated an alien race for insulting their faith. They created the Collossi as weapons of war for that purpose and then promised to never use them again after they realized that they committed genocide. Which leads to a question: what exactly were reavers? Super happy entertainment pleasure machines?
I'm pretty sure reavers were originally used to build things. Think (modern-day, not starcraft) factories, only smaller and moveable. So, basically portable technology manufacturing plants.
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On September 12 2010 14:29 jackofclubs81 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 13:40 DetriusXii wrote:
Excluding the hybrids, a fourth species did exist in the lore. The Protoss exterminated an alien race for insulting their faith. They created the Collossi as weapons of war for that purpose and then promised to never use them again after they realized that they committed genocide. Which leads to a question: what exactly were reavers? Super happy entertainment pleasure machines? I'm pretty sure reavers were originally used to build things. Think (modern-day, not starcraft) factories, only smaller and moveable. So, basically portable technology manufacturing plants.
Reavers are modified "mobile" factories that were modified to produce scarabs.
Colossi were mining tools weren't they? Nm they were ONLY built for war and the only automaton built for war by Toss.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Colossus
The colossus is an antiquated protoss war machine, dating back to the Kalath Intercession.[2]
It was unique in that it was created purely as a war machine, in contrast to most protoss automatons which were mainly created for industrial and/or resource gathering purposes. Such a trait was demonstrated by the mass slaughter carried out against the kalathi, appalling the protoss. As such, the Conclave outlawed the manufacture of colossi, and existing machines were deactivated before being sealed away. Some were sent to distant asteroids and uninhabited moons.[3]. Others were stored on Aiur, some underwater, awaiting a signal from a beacon.[4] The war against the zerg, however, prompted the return of the colossi to the protoss arsenal.[3]
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Indeed the niche the Xel Naga would most obviously occupy belongs now to the protoss.
Were a new race be added into the game it would most likely be made of those hybrids.
Maybe it would be a race that has similar mechanics to both Z and P but ends up creating unique gameplay.
For instance, two tech paths, one leads to more beffy units like the hybrid reaver from the campaign, the other leads to more caster units like the destroyer.
You would probably have some zealot like unit that would open the tech tree, like the zerg the Xel Naga would need only beacon buildings and would produce everything from a main building, it could have some sort of Hybridling as a worker unit, they would build buildings the the protoss and be used like larva for the other units, they would be produced at this main buildings,
the main building should probably have upgrades like lair and hive.
The supply resource should be some sort of obelisks that can be upgraded later on to dark obelisks to work as shield batteries or somethin
It would be very upgrade focused, all units would have like 2-3 upgrades.
For scouting some caster unit could have an upgrade which allows them a smaller version of scan for like 100 energy or more.
Just so many ideas right now, could certainly be awesome, but in the end, its protoss 2.0 +zerg
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On September 12 2010 11:15 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
wc3 players correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't orc vs undead possibly the most imbalanced matchup in a blizzard RTS (to the point of retardation)
Most top orcs are running somewhere around 80% lifetime winrate against UD. UD with winrate somewhere around 55% was considered total orc killer in that matchup. The maps are a little better for undead now, but it's still not very nice. So, in SC terms of balance it's imbalanced.
There are also quite a few matchups that just don't develop very well despite being roughly 50-50. For example Human vs Orc often goes to a situation where human expands right away, towers up big time and proceeds to tier 3 max upgraded army right away. While it has small details that keep it viable comptetively, I don't think it really is that good for spectating and the whole matchup seems to move on railroad tracks for the vast majority of time. It's playable, but I think it could be a lot better if they only had 3 races to think about.
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WC3 was originally going to have 6 races - http://www.gamespot.com/news/2568873.html
It will be interesting to see what happens if SC2 stays super popular and both expansions sell really well. I could easily imagine some way out of touch Activision/Blizzard exec in 2015 ordering a 3rd expansion with a 4th race to keep the gravy train rolling.
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The races allready overlap thematically. All of them are organic (i.e. its not just the zerg). Terran build machines to use for war as opposed to zerg but so does Protoss. Protoss have psychic abilities but so does Terran (ghosts). Hence it wouldn't make much of a difference if there was an all robot race that would overlap with protoss.
If Blizzard's primary goal was to have races represent individual themes it would make more sense to have 4 races so you could have one that was psychic, one robot, one animal and one human.
That being said Im not in favor of a fourth race as I think it would become too complex. But thats a matter of game mechanics and not the "modus operandi" of starcraft xD
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EPT
