EPTwhy mess with something perfect is probably what blizzard is thinking.
Why there should never be a 4th race in Starcraft - Page 3
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
why mess with something perfect is probably what blizzard is thinking. | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
On September 12 2010 11:48 Yurie wrote: Stating such absolutes always comes back to bite you. ^^ It just hasn't been done yet. You could add another one to SC and remain completely unique, my idea for that would be a fantasy race in a sci fi setting. Balancing would of course be up in the air.  edit, question. Do we know what is on the other side of Protoss space? ive been brainstorming this idea for awhile on how you could add a 4th race to sc and make it completely unique in every aspect.. ive had no ideas id love to hear a property that is unique from regen, repair/heal, and shields also like to hear unique tech paths (lair vs core vs factory/addons) and also mass spawn vs warping vs traditional unit qeue ..just sayin the hybrids would IMO be the only possible unique race and it would just be a combination of the existing properties which would be boring and redundant | ||
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Doppelganger
488 Posts
On September 12 2010 11:48 Yurie wrote: You could add another one to SC and remain completely unique, my idea for that would be a fantasy race in a sci fi setting. Balancing would of course be up in the air. I'd rather miss out on that fourth race! Elves and Orcs in Space is for Warhammer 40k. It would not fit and I hope the Xel'naga and the Hybrids remain unplayable. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
WC3 seems to be okay. | ||
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Zvendetta
United States321 Posts
Interestingly enough, for the first game's expansion they added a 4th race. When the sequel came out, they REMOVED the 4th race. I think "random" should be changed to "xel'naga" so that each time you spawn you would create a race and then play that. Random essentially is already a 4th option to choose your race. oh btw, you called zerg weak. Individual units, yes, may be a tad bit weaker. but "weak" is not good to describe a race at large. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
As for thematic scifi roles, I am tempted to look at scifi universes with many factions/races See to me, this is entirely the wrong approach. Thats the Warcraft approach. "If these races look different from each other, have different cultures, and have different gameplay mechanics, then thats enough to justify their existence." Starcraft is more than that. The races aren't just about different appearances, or different cultures, or even different mechanics...they are about entirely different genres, thrown together and made to fight. Those genres encompass huge amounts of variation and MANY different works--so Toss cover not just the Eldar or the Predator, but things like Flying Saucers and tractor beams, teleportation and beaming, laser beams and lightsabers, psychic powers and autonomous combat robots. The entire genre of "far future"/"fantastical" scifi is captured in a single race. It is, by design, incredibly broad and meant to include elements from many, many different works which all fit roughly into the same genre. Same with Terran. *Anything* that shows up realistic/human-oriented scifi is fitting for Terran, from space marines, to mechwarriors, to BSG-style capital ships, to nukes. They embody entire genres. A new race would have to do the same. | ||
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leeznon
United States255 Posts
This race wouldn't attack, only spell cast. That would be amazing! | ||
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Yurie
11904 Posts
On September 12 2010 11:55 billyX333 wrote: ive been brainstorming this idea since 2003 on how you could add a 4th race and make it completely unique in every aspect.. ive had no ideas id love to hear a property that is unique from regen, repair/heal, and shields also like to hear unique tech paths (lair vs core vs factory/addons) and also mass spawn vs warping vs traditional unit qeue ..just sayin I don't have all the answers since I just thought of it like 40 minutes ago. :p Unique from regen, repair/heal and shields. Squads of mages/warriors, whatever. Suggested solution: Since this race is individually weak they always fight in squads. When they lose HP they lose members of the squad like in total war series or Dawn of War. Similar to those series you can get members back through various means. Perhaps have summoners reinforce them for you or have a building you have to go to. It is similar to healing, but if the efficiency of the units goes down slightly per lost member it would be unique (if too much they would need to be very strong at the start). Tech paths. They teleport in a camp of some sort, I would suggest a tree or some such and make it a natural race with animals (cuddly) and so on to fit a unique look for SC that rings of fantasy. Isn't T and P tech paths pretty much the same in that they build 1, then 2, then 3 or 4, with buildings 4,5,6 needed to get units from them? As for this race, perhaps something like a summoning ritual with x amount of workers (balance numbers) performing a ritual to get a larger summoning circle in order to get larger circles. Then you have different tiers in how large circles you can call in. With x amount of tiers depending on balancing, timings and costs. Not truly happy with that idea though. But if you have to perform it for each building and have an enabling building it might work. So you start with building 1, build building 2 with x workers summoning it in, perhaps from a short distance away to proxy it where you can see and can build basic magic cadre a. Then you build building 3 and set your workers to expanding building 2, however many you have/want to building 2.1. This then enables building 4 which enables building 2.2 to be summoned. Building 3 and 4 would then have the upgrades for their tiers, but not for the whole race. I am not fully happy with this idea, but it is basically that you level up the construction buildings, kind of like a tech lab, but taken further. Also mass spawn vs warping vs traditional unit queue. The idea I had would be similar to warping. Though the building could keep warping in "people" until the cap set by the building level. Let's say 3,5,7 or 9. Once that number is reached you have to group those units into a cadre or squad with a specific purpose. Perhaps have different kinds of people teleporting in forcing you to make basic units of one kind to get a high enough concentration of people of the other kind for your squad. So if you build squads of 2 warrior kinds then you need to build magic kind since that is all you can build. Not sure that is a needed part, perhaps one type of person or setting a building to what type you want would work. You could go back to that building and reinforce any losses you had incurred, making that the race's defence. Building a reinforcement building on the front. Still considering ideas on how to make it fit and be unique. Any other important factors to consider or good ideas for a race of that type? Oh and I don't really want a 4:th race, this is just fun to discuss. | ||
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Yurie
11904 Posts
On September 12 2010 12:01 awesomoecalypse wrote:-so Toss cover not just the Eldar or the Predator, but things like Flying Saucers and tractor beams, teleportation and beaming, laser beams and lightsabers, psychic powers and autonomous combat robots. I think the protoss miss several of the things you want to include in them. At least that is my feeling, that toss is a bit too stream lined, especially in the magic department. edit. Sorry for double post, I'll just go to bed if I am making this stupid mistakes | ||
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Obscure
United States272 Posts
On September 12 2010 11:44 awesomoecalypse wrote: Thats my point though. Terrans may be, in the most specific sense, "truckers in space". But on a thematic sense, they are also the embodiment of an entire genre of "realistic" and human-oriented science fiction which encompasses many different works, from Mechwarrior to Battlestar Galactica to Firefly. The other ideas people are bringing up aren't, "hey, there's this entire genre of science fiction which is totally unrepresented in the Starcraft spectrum, so lets add a race to represent that genre" They are, basically, the Warcraft approach of adding races which may be distinct in terms of visuals or gameplay, but don't embody a distinct genre. Spot on. Not only would a fourth race add nothing thematically that the current three races already cover, but it would also make balancing the game that much harder. Blizzard had many years to mull over the idea of adding another playabe race to the SC universe, and I think they made the right choice. | ||
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Parodoxx
United States549 Posts
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Tomo009
Australia96 Posts
The reason for this is simple, I'm sure most of you know that Starcraft is based almost entirely on warhammer 40k (as warcraft was originally to be a warhammer rts, but blizzard had the licence pulled from under them). There are still heaps of warhammer mirrors that would be incredibly unique. For instance there is no "come from the ground, plant with no real purpose race" ala the Orks, no chaos powers, though they are a newer addition to warhammer, no necron like race. But I don't think it is needed at all and I for one am totally happy 3 functional races. | ||
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Disciple7
United States198 Posts
The Omnipotent: Even if XN were to overlap the "psionic" abilities of protoss, they have the omnipotence trait. I think XN may still be too redundant with protoss however, but a race like the Reapers in ME would be almost COMPLETELY different. Omnipotent machines that engulf other races to be born/prolong their existence. They may not fit into weak-medium-powerful, but they could start weak, and by engulfing other units of their own, or other enemies who are weaker than them, they become more powerful (this sounds retarded, I know, I'm just trying to point out it wouldn't be redundant). Nature beings: No, the zerg are not spawned from nature, they are simply organic. When I say nature beings, I mean they are LITERALLY part of nature. Many may say this fits only into high-fantasy, but tell me why it can't be sci-fi? Mutalisks can fly in space, why can't nature beings be able to traverse space somehow? Because I do not feel like explaining each individually: Gameplay would obviously be very different for both, they would both have different themes. Balance with 4 races would be shit, but I do think it would be fun to have another race. Maybe with their advertised "all-powerful" map editor, someone could come up with a 4th race, just for shits and giggles, maybe bring a WC race into SC. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On September 12 2010 13:00 Disciple7 wrote: I think there are two themes not covered by SC (in sci-fi) actually The Omnipotent: Even if XN were to overlap the "psionic" abilities of protoss, they have the omnipotence trait. I think XN may still be too redundant with protoss however, but a race like the Reapers in ME would be almost COMPLETELY different. Omnipotent machines that engulf other races to be born/prolong their existence. They may not fit into weak-medium-powerful, but they could start weak, and by engulfing other units of their own, or other enemies who are weaker than them, they become more powerful (this sounds retarded, I know, I'm just trying to point out it wouldn't be redundant). Nature beings: No, the zerg are not spawned from nature, they are simply organic. When I say nature beings, I mean they are LITERALLY part of nature. Many may say this fits only into high-fantasy, but tell me why it can't be sci-fi? Mutalisks can fly in space, why can't nature beings be able to traverse space somehow? Because I do not feel like explaining each individually: Gameplay would obviously be very different for both, they would both have different themes. Balance with 4 races would be shit, but I do think it would be fun to have another race. Maybe with their advertised "all-powerful" map editor, someone could come up with a 4th race, just for shits and giggles, maybe bring a WC race into SC. omnipotent |ämˈnipətənt| adjective (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything. • having ultimate power and influence : an omnipotent sovereign. Try to balance, reasonably in lore, something omnipotent and tell me how it goes. It doesn't make sense from a gameplay perspective. From a thematic perspective perhaps, but there are overlaps with the Zerg who assimilate other races, and the Protoss with their high technology. As for nature, I don't really get what you're saying, as I've never heard of anything like it as a scifi theme. And as for the map editor, due to the ridiculously small data limit, you can barely bring your own models into the game, let alone a whole race. | ||
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benetc
5 Posts
On September 12 2010 11:10 blitzkrieger wrote: You could easily have an entirely machine based race work with different mechanics (ZING!). I agreed with the OP until I read this, (and subsequently nerdgasmed) because it's the only sci-fi thematic "race" that isn't covered by protoss/terran/zerg. Think of it as a race of terminators, or necrons from warhammer 40k, or the machines from the matrix trilogy. That said, if you wanted to include them in starcraft and be completely distinct (not that that would be a good idea, of course), you'd have to get rid of the protoss robotic units and make the race completely focused on being techno-spiritual psionic spellcasters and whatnot. Terran mech is fine because there are still humans inside the tanks, they're not automatons. Another thing is that the theme to this race is being a single-minded force that can't be distracted from their objectives (a la terminators), so this might be stepping on the zerg's toes if you're thinking about starcraft 1 and the overmind. The solution to that is to make the zerg a lot more chaotic and prone to infighting, kind of the 40k ork shtick ("If they ever united in one army they'd take over the universe" etc etc) So as it stands, I think that leaves the general Sci-Fi race divides as: "Terrans": the humans that use guns and "realistic" weaponry, and are kind of middle of the road in most regards "Protoss": the mystics that use magic and lasers/ lightsabers and such; individually powerful "Zerg": the mindless horde of predatory aliens, usually individually weak but have massive numbers "The Machines": completely mechanical army that shares a single programmed directive. totally fearless and incredibly resilient | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On September 12 2010 13:31 benetc wrote: I agreed with the OP until I read this, (and subsequently nerdgasmed) because it's the only sci-fi thematic "race" that isn't covered by protoss/terran/zerg. Think of it as a race of terminators, or necrons from warhammer 40k, or the machines from the matrix trilogy. That said, if you wanted to include them in starcraft and be completely distinct (not that that would be a good idea, of course), you'd have to get rid of the protoss robotic units and make the race completely focused on being techno-spiritual psionic spellcasters and whatnot. Terran mech is fine because there are still humans inside the tanks, they're not automatons. Another thing is that the theme to this race is being a single-minded force that can't be distracted from their objectives (a la terminators), so this might be stepping on the zerg's toes if you're thinking about starcraft 1 and the overmind. The solution to that is to make the zerg a lot more chaotic and prone to infighting, kind of the 40k ork shtick ("If they ever united in one army they'd take over the universe" etc etc) So as it stands, I think that leaves the general Sci-Fi race divides as: "Terrans": the humans that use guns and "realistic" weaponry, and are kind of middle of the road in most regards "Protoss": the mystics that use magic and lasers/ lightsabers and such; individually powerful "Zerg": the mindless horde of predatory aliens, usually individually weak but have massive numbers "The Machines": completely mechanical army that shares a single programmed directive. totally fearless and incredibly resilient To me it feels like such a thing would be just zerg, but instead of being made of tissue, they're made of metal. And instead of playing like the massable zerg, they'd play more like the small group of Protoss. | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
And it doesn't have to be Xel'Naga. It could just be some race that was just discovered in some distant sector. The zerg have been assimilating all sorts of races, so obviously there are other races out there. So lore-wise there's definitely room for a fourth race. I wouldn't mind it if it stayed in the campaign. Multiplayer on the other hand is just fine with 3. | ||
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DetriusXii
Canada156 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Think of it as a race of terminators, or necrons from warhammer 40k, or the machines from the matrix trilogy. That said, if you wanted to include them in starcraft and be completely distinct (not that that would be a good idea, of course), you'd have to get rid of the protoss robotic units and make the race completely focused on being techno-spiritual psionic spellcasters and whatnot. Terran mech is fine because there are still humans inside the tanks, they're not automatons. This is a good point. A fully robotic AI race is definitely a defining element of a broad, recurring subgenre of SciFi that shows up in many different works. But right now, robots and AI fall under the Protoss spectrum of "high technology". Like, nearly half the protoss units are robots/Ai. Probes are robots. Colossi are robots. Sentries are robots. Warp Prisms are robots. Reavers were robots. Interceptors are robots. So the question is, if there's a robot/AI unit which you'd like to introduce to the game, why couldn't it just be a Protoss unit? Similarly, if you're going to introduce a mystic unit with magic-like powers, why couldn't it be a Protoss unit? And if you're going to introduce a new "organic" unit, why can't it just be a Zerg unit. Right now, the races cover such a broad spectrum, that its hard to see what new units couldn't be easily made to fit into one of them. edit: for example, say you wanted a unit based on the Terminator. It would be a really strong, "unstoppable" killing machine, and also a robot driven by AI. How does that not make perfect thematic sense for the Protoss? | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
-3 races : 3 Match-up to balance -4 races : 6 Match-up to balance... twice more headaches. Edit : bah didn't see it on the first page a bit too hasty and cant delete post =( | ||
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