EPTWhy there should never be a 4th race in Starcraft - Page 6
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
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mangomango
United States265 Posts
On September 12 2010 11:10 blitzkrieger wrote: You could easily have an entirely machine based race work with different mechanics (ZING!). For instance it could have interchangeable parts and merge/collapse in order to be more effective. Like all units come from one base type (kind of like larva) or any sort of crazy machine idea. You could also make magic/spirit based race that doesn't really die but losses its ability to manifest itself in our universe. The options aren't limited to biological, human, and advanced alien at all not even counting hybrids. I think this is the truth of it. But Idra would be very upset about this. He might even write a strongly worded letter... | ||
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hoovehand
United Kingdom542 Posts
starcraft really feeds on sci-fi geek fantasies of alien, predator and space marines in a sandbox. it's the backbone of the entire game. ingeniously original 'classes' and fighting styles look no further than guildwars. i get chills just thinking about how awesome that game was back in the day... | ||
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mangomango
United States265 Posts
On September 12 2010 13:37 TedJustice wrote: There hasn't been an AI themed race yet. There are tons of possibilities. And it doesn't have to be Xel'Naga. It could just be some race that was just discovered in some distant sector. The zerg have been assimilating all sorts of races, so obviously there are other races out there. So lore-wise there's definitely room for a fourth race. I wouldn't mind it if it stayed in the campaign. Multiplayer on the other hand is just fine with 3. It could be a race that "was" being assimilated by the Zerg on some distant frontier but threw off their oppressors and are only now learning about Humans and Protoss. OR What about a race of Borg like units that combine different qualities from all the races. WAIT I think I hear Idra sharpening his pencil again.... there will be nerd-rage and terrible terrible splash damage. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
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LBo
Germany35 Posts
On September 12 2010 16:04 sh[A]d[O]w wrote: Look, Some people might be completely missing the point of the AI / robot race. If you added a "Robot" race. It would be: Non-living automated machines programed to destroy. They would be like philosophical zombies. They have no protoss "soul", human "consciousness", or zerg "hive mind". They go through the motions of massacring you, but don't know it. They're not aware, or alive, just running on programing. Thematically, Starcraft can be divided like this: Zerg: "Alien"-like organic hive mind that swarms and infests planets. They have no goal in mind, they just reproduce, consume, evolve, and plague the universe like parasites. Terran: Humans in the future. Industrial, and able to survive in the far reaches of space through the use of science and technology. Not natural, but intellectually driven. Protoss: Spiritual and psychic beings that have found a way beyond science of interacting with the universe. Basically a religious jedi-like awareness that allows them to use "spells" and "magic". The entire Zerg race is like one huge organism with the pulsating buildings that feed on creep and everything. Terran is the human race that has stopped evolving organically, but uses its intellect, science and technology to adapt. Protoss is the enlightened race that transcends dimensions and logic. The Robot race would be like a combination of non-living things that just happen to be arranged together in a way that they're driven to go through the motions of killing you. This. But I have to correct you on the human thing. Terrans in StarCraft did not stop to evolve, their psionic abilities are still growing, the Spectres are an indication, but this will probably never find its way into Multiplayer for a good reason. But lore-wise mankind is still on the way to a evolutionary level somewhat similar to the Protoss one day perhaps but that's probably million years in the future. But you're right on the ideology thing. People are trying to argue that there's room for a machine race in SC as no race embodies this theme, on the other hand people are trying to argue that the Protoss war machines encompass that idea. But that's not a good argument, I think. There's no reason that there couldn't be a robotical race, because there are robots in other armies. A machine race is a distinct Sci-Fi theme and by reading the OP it directly came into my (Sci-Fi obsessed) mind that this theme is not embodied by one of the races. The cyborg-race of the Borg in Star Trek, the Replicators of Stargate, the "undead" eternal Necron of Warhammer 40k, the Cylons of Battlestar Galactica, the Machines of Terminator (to some extent). The last two even have the distinction that they were created by humans or another sentient species, which brings an own theme. But that's not the point. There could be room in SC lore for a machine race, but we do not have to look only on the themes the races embody currently but also on the philosophy behind them: Zerg: Collectivist, mindless, no individuality, no free will, therefore obviously no virtues, no ethics, no dissent. (Let's leave Kerrigan out here on that.) A mechanical race would fit in this mindset. It's obviously occupied. Terran: Highly individualistic, outspoken, flexible, but also greedy and ruthless. Have the choice to make the right decision, have the potential to be the most ethical of all species. We are them obviously. Protoss: Interestingly the Protoss are in between here. Sometimes they are a little bit of what humans could be if they wanted to. They are individuals, they make choices, they have moral but also flaws, so they are accessible to us. But they learned to let their individuality not harm the greater good of their species or the universe (whatever that may be). They are spiritualistic and religious, sometimes also in a bad way that means for example highly conservative, unflexible and cruel. If we acknowledge that, we will see that there's no more room for another species unless we find a completely different part of human nature and can project it on a new race. (Protoss and Zerg embody parts of human nature to an extent.) | ||
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petelectro
Germany69 Posts
On September 13 2010 01:14 LBo wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 12 2010 16:04 sh[A]d[O]w wrote: Look, Some people might be completely missing the point of the AI / robot race. If you added a "Robot" race. It would be: Non-living automated machines programed to destroy. They would be like philosophical zombies. They have no protoss "soul", human "consciousness", or zerg "hive mind". They go through the motions of massacring you, but don't know it. They're not aware, or alive, just running on programing. Thematically, Starcraft can be divided like this: Zerg: "Alien"-like organic hive mind that swarms and infests planets. They have no goal in mind, they just reproduce, consume, evolve, and plague the universe like parasites. Terran: Humans in the future. Industrial, and able to survive in the far reaches of space through the use of science and technology. Not natural, but intellectually driven. Protoss: Spiritual and psychic beings that have found a way beyond science of interacting with the universe. Basically a religious jedi-like awareness that allows them to use "spells" and "magic". The entire Zerg race is like one huge organism with the pulsating buildings that feed on creep and everything. Terran is the human race that has stopped evolving organically, but uses its intellect, science and technology to adapt. Protoss is the enlightened race that transcends dimensions and logic. The Robot race would be like a combination of non-living things that just happen to be arranged together in a way that they're driven to go through the motions of killing you. This. But I have to correct you on the human thing. Terrans in StarCraft did not stop to evolve, their psionic abilities are still growing, the Spectres are an indication, but this will probably never find its way into Multiplayer for a good reason. But lore-wise mankind is still on the way to a evolutionary level somewhat similar to the Protoss one day perhaps but that's probably million years in the future. But you're right on the ideology thing. People are trying to argue that there's room for a machine race in SC as no race embodies this theme, on the other hand people are trying to argue that the Protoss war machines encompass that idea. But that's not a good argument, I think. There's no reason that there couldn't be a robotical race, because there are robots in other armies. A machine race is a distinct Sci-Fi theme and by reading the OP it directly came into my (Sci-Fi obsessed) mind that this theme is not embodied by one of the races. The cyborg-race of the Borg in Star Trek, the Replicators of Stargate, the "undead" eternal Necron of Warhammer 40k, the Cylons of Battlestar Galactica, the Machines of Terminator (to some extent). The last two even have the distinction that they were created by humans or another sentient species, which brings an own theme. But that's not the point. There could be room in SC lore for a machine race, but we do not have to look only on the themes the races embody currently but also on the philosophy behind them: Zerg: Collectivist, mindless, no individuality, no free will, therefore obviously no virtues, no ethics, no dissent. (Let's leave Kerrigan out here on that.) A mechanical race would fit in this mindset. It's obviously occupied. Terran: Highly individualistic, outspoken, flexible, but also greedy and ruthless. Have the choice to make the right decision, have the potential to be the most ethical of all species. We are them obviously. Protoss: Interestingly the Protoss are in between here. Sometimes they are a little bit of what humans could be if they wanted to. They are individuals, they make choices, they have moral but also flaws, so they are accessible to us. But they learned to let their individuality not harm the greater good of their species or the universe (whatever that may be). They are spiritualistic and religious, sometimes also in a bad way that means for example highly conservative, unflexible and cruel. If we acknowledge that, we will see that there's no more room for another species unless we find a completely different part of human nature and can project it on a new race. (Protoss and Zerg embody parts of human nature to an extent.) I think that we shouldn't just look at broad themes for a possible 4th race. Something really narrow and simple can be used to define a race aswell. For example: A robotic race could easily have a enslaving theme which would define and distinguish them from the other races more than enough. You can come up with a lot of characteristics of human nature that can be used as a "race-defining" theme. The only question is if a 4th race would fit in the SC universe that well. We sure know about the Xel'Naga but still, the only Xel'Naga that we have seen is the dark voice and I would hate to have the Xel'Naga use the hybrids, that would be just boring as hell... The 4th race would have to fulfill an important role in the plot without being the new super power in town and that is kinda hard to do with the current state of the story. | ||
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Lennon
United Kingdom2275 Posts
On September 12 2010 11:05 Skyze wrote: I think WC3 had good balance for 4 races. Every match-up was slightly imbalanced except for Orc-Undead which was completely broken. | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3789 Posts
On September 12 2010 14:18 awesomoecalypse wrote: Sure, there could. But as Starcraft is currently set up, literally any sci fi trope or unit type you can think of can fit neatly into one of the existing races. There is no niche which isn't currently encompassed by one of the races, because the races aren't built around one specific culture ala Warcraft, they're built around entire genres and everything in them. Actually I can think of plenty of sci fi tropes and science fiction concepts that haven't reached trope status that hasn't been touched. Tropes 1) Hard Sci-Fi race- A faction that doesn't break the boundaries of known science and still manages to kick ass with technology as Mass Drivers and a pathological patience and the societal structure to support such patience to think in the long term (even though they have limited life spans) in ways that looks absurd to the other factions. 2) An actual one mind race- The zerg are a hive mind like ants (stupid in small numbers but as their population grows their ability to perceive and become self aware leads to a developed conscious like the Overmind) A one mind race would be the reverse case were an all powerful being breaks off parts of itself to do certain actions and reduce the stress of having absolute control. This is usually represented by the machine races as seen in the Matrix or the Borg instead of the machine races like the ones in Terminator. But the implications should be clear this doesn't have to be just a machine race. The Similacrum origin story of the universe pretty much falls under this concept and it isn't even sci-fi. 3)Mystical faction - Everything is based on psuedoscience and other false crap like astrology, feng shui and so on. This faction would have a whole bunch of luck based mechanics. The Joey Wheeler of Starcraft. SciFi concept rarely touched 1) Sentient beings that can perceive and interact with multiple dimensions than the 3rd and possibly 5th dimension the other factions are limited to allowing them to pull off things that seems impossible and looks like magic even to the Xel Naga. | ||
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Fly[DCT]
Canada38 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
3)Mystical faction - Everything is based on psuedoscience and other false crap like astrology, feng shui and so on. This faction would have a whole bunch of luck based mechanics. The Joey Wheeler of Starcraft. Protoss? 1) Hard Sci-Fi race- A faction that doesn't break the boundaries of known science and still manages to kick ass with technology as Mass Drivers and a pathological patience and the societal structure to support such patience to think in the long term (even though they have limited life spans) in ways that looks absurd to the other factions. Ehm, this would just be a boring race that wouldn''t fit into the SC2 aesthetic :/. You know how big Marine shoulders are? Yeah. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
1) Hard Sci-Fi race- A faction that doesn't break the boundaries of known science and still manages to kick ass with technology as Mass Drivers and a pathological patience and the societal structure to support such patience to think in the long term (even though they have limited life spans) in ways that looks absurd to the other factions. Terran are already the "realistic" scifi race. Any "realistic" sci fi unit should be a Terran unit. 2) An actual one mind race- The zerg are a hive mind like ants (stupid in small numbers but as their population grows their ability to perceive and become self aware leads to a developed conscious like the Overmind) A one mind race would be the reverse case were an all powerful being breaks off parts of itself to do certain actions and reduce the stress of having absolute control. This is usually represented by the machine races as seen in the Matrix or the Borg instead of the machine races like the ones in Terminator. But the implications should be clear this doesn't have to be just a machine race. The Similacrum origin story of the universe pretty much falls under this concept and it isn't even sci-fi. Zerg are already the Borg of Starcraft, a hivemind that assimilates other races. 3)Mystical faction - Everything is based on psuedoscience and other false crap like astrology, feng shui and so on. This faction would have a whole bunch of luck based mechanics. The Joey Wheeler of Starcraft. Toss are already the mystical faction. If you're introducing any sort of unit with magic-type powers, it should be a Protoss unit. 1) Sentient beings that can perceive and interact with multiple dimensions than the 3rd and possibly 5th dimension the other factions are limited to allowing them to pull off things that seems impossible and looks like magic even to the Xel Naga. Protoss can already effect 4 dimensions (see: Chronoboost, the Motherships Timebomb that was removed). Its hard to see how any gameplay mechanics could operate in 5 dimensions. Honestly not one of these ideas so sounds completely different from the existing races that any unit you proposed for the new race couldn't fit right into one of the existing ones. | ||
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Nereus
Sweden9 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Name ONE unit that would exist for this new race, that couldn't fit quite easily into one of the existing races. because so far I haven't seen a single idea that couldn't be made to fit one of the existing 3. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
in other words even tho a new race CAN work, the devs find it to hard and frustrating to do so its not going to happen. lazyness is the limiting factor in many games these days. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
They were always one of my favorite sci-fi lore armies. For those who don't know their lore: Necrontyr were an ancient race who were doomed by a very short life-span. For all their technology, they could never find a way to live longer. They make these giant metal statues that their gods eventually come to inhabit, in turn forcing all necrontyr into their own metal statues so that they can continue their service forever. After rampaging through the universe with their unstoppable metal army, nearly destroying all life, they simply disappear. Now, people are stumbling upon tomb-worlds with armies of Necrons hidden in deep caverns. Meanwhile, the human empire is finding spies for the necron gods deep within their ranks. How long have the Necrons been engineering things for their grand return? Note: I really gutted the lore to fit it in a few sentences. | ||
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ckw
United States1018 Posts
On September 12 2010 11:06 awesomoecalypse wrote: If Xel'Naga were a playable race, in what way would they fulfill a distinct thematic role from the Protoss? Ancient? Check Super-technology/borderline magic powers? Check Incredible power? Check The Xel'Naga may appear in the campaign in some sense, but they will never be playable, because then there would be two "ancient, super powerful, far future" races. And racial overlap is unStarcraft. You're pretty positive about the direction a game will go for just a player. No offense but you're coming on pretty strong here, you aren't on the Blizzard team. I understand what you're saying but no one except Blizzard will ever know whats going to come in the expansions or the next game, that will come in probably 20 years. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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charlly987
19 Posts
WHAT IF !!! - they took all 3 races and divided them into 2 seperate, but self sufficient sub races. For example - you take terran and divide them into Dominion and Confederation. They both have some units in common but the Dominion gets tanks, banshees and goliaths while Confederates get medivac, fbat, marauder, viking etc. Ofcourse Im making up the unit combo, but if they could somehow get the balance by taking some strengths and weaknesses and shuffle them inbeetveen them it could turn out cool. God knows how many units they made for the campaing that lay dormant after they met their use. Same thing would go for zerg and toss. Storywise its very plausable but balancewise yeah i know, next to impossible. Just an idea tough...^^ | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
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