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On September 06 2010 12:12 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:24 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant tell anything through food, unless you know the times things happen. There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30. But, if you say "pro player moves out at 90 food, I will too" you will be. From that point on it is up to you to get to that 90 food as fast as possible. That is mechanics though, not strategy. If the caster leaves the supply bar up, or if he clicks on a player's unit, you can see the food. It is right there in the top corner, you can't miss it. -(Aassuming he is in a replay, if he isn't then this whole thread is moot anyway). And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject. Yeah I bet he loves that. No. You're very wrong dude. Anyone with decent mechanics (D+ level on iccup or even worse) can run basically a perfect timing attack down to the second.
what the fuck.
i was D+/C- on iccup and i could never get 90 food at 9 minutes opening 12 hatch into 5 hatch hydra no matter how hard i tried. i always ended up about 10-15 food short. closest i ever got was 85 food vs the computer just running the BO 10 times over and over again. same with my mutas for 2hat muta timing in zvt, always at least 20-30 seconds behind. so i absolutely disagree with your statement.
unless of course you're talking about executing in sc2, in which case i pretty much agree.
that said, i do think having a goal for players to reach in terms of food at a certain time is very important, and do agree that knowing how much food you should aim to have at X time is great for developing a player's macro.
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
Lately TL reminds me of the WoW forums, complain about everything.
Anti-spoilers are way more important than the time ffs. Really?
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On September 06 2010 12:23 piegasm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? What people are saying is that the time is ultimately irrelevant except as a yardstick so you can see your improvement. Quickness comes from repetition, not from trying to have 80 supply in X minutes. As you repeat the build order, you will gradually do it more and more quickly and you'll eventually have 80 supply in X minutes, regardless of whether you ever know the value of X. Leaving that aside, just watch other replays. It's not reasonable to ask casters to change how they broadcast to suit your desire to know the time when you have nearly unlimited options for watching replays without imposing upon anyone.
?????
Did you read what I wrote? I am not talking about copying a build order. Okay granted thats the main focus is, but its really not for some people. Like lets say Day9 is doing a TvP focusing on the T. Your a protoss, what you would get from this cast, is being aware of this fancy T push. But you cant do anything with said information because you cant compare it your build unless you are doing math via the youtube/blip whatever time bar which is just ridiculous. I mean if your a T you could totally make use of the video without the time. But for the Protoss player it means absolutely nothing say for entertainment value.
I mean that point aside, for a strategical cast, does it even matter if the time is showing or not? I mean its not like Day9's main goal is to entertain. He even says at the beginning of the cast, "The Day9 daily, where you can become a better gamer". Well why not let players make the most out of the daily? Like Im a zerg and Idra does this uber fancy thing winning him the game vs Strelok. But strelok does this amazing timing push that I am not sure I can handle. So I note the time he pushes, his units, upgrades, food whatever. And then through the time, I compare it to what I have when he pushes.
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Honestly I see the OP's point. And I understand asking casters to change the way they do things might seem UNREAL... omg. But time is a very big part of the game and while you may not sit there in a game and be like OMG ITS 7:09 time to move out!. But you could get a general feeling of dam at 12minutes he's 150+ food and im still stuck at 90... there is a big flaw in your game that needs to be addressed weither its macro/micro, both. Now every game is different and you could be mid/high diamond and be maxed out at 12 minutes where as in the replay the pro is only at 120 food? why is this well maybe who you are playing just doesn't cut it and allows you to walk over him.
I wouldn't tell someone how to do the job personally, but im pretty sure people who do the work they do for a large audience would rather have some feedback rather then saying i am god and i am right.(not saying any of you are) But some of you people in this thread pretty much disclose his idea because you think its unearthly for him to ask for something that could help everyone, no one, maybe someone in someway.. eitherway I would see it as only benefical for the casters who are doing indepth strat talks.
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On September 06 2010 12:12 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:24 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant tell anything through food, unless you know the times things happen. There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30. But, if you say "pro player moves out at 90 food, I will too" you will be. From that point on it is up to you to get to that 90 food as fast as possible. That is mechanics though, not strategy. the amount of wrong in this thread is discouraging If the caster leaves the supply bar up, or if he clicks on a player's unit, you can see the food. It is right there in the top corner, you can't miss it. -(Aassuming he is in a replay, if he isn't then this whole thread is moot anyway). And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject. Yeah I bet he loves that. No. You're very wrong dude. Anyone with decent mechanics (D+ level on iccup or even worse) can run basically a perfect timing attack down to the second.
actually you're very wrong.
of course we can run timing attacks like that. down to the second. but no good player clocks his build every time he does it. once you get your mechanics (more important than ur build order) you'll be able to create similar scenarios each time you play
you're trying to fix too much too fast. your example uses a player who cant macro or make probes. well obviously that player should work on macro instead of trying to get a build order tight. once he handles the obvious flaw and can do it right every time then he can start working on getting a build order right the same time every time by working on relative timings instead of garbage clock shit
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On September 06 2010 12:39 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:23 piegasm wrote:On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? What people are saying is that the time is ultimately irrelevant except as a yardstick so you can see your improvement. Quickness comes from repetition, not from trying to have 80 supply in X minutes. As you repeat the build order, you will gradually do it more and more quickly and you'll eventually have 80 supply in X minutes, regardless of whether you ever know the value of X. Leaving that aside, just watch other replays. It's not reasonable to ask casters to change how they broadcast to suit your desire to know the time when you have nearly unlimited options for watching replays without imposing upon anyone. ????? Did you read what I wrote? I am not talking about copying a build order. Okay granted thats the main focus is, but its really not for some people. Like lets say Day9 is doing a TvP focusing on the T. Your a protoss, what you would get from this cast, is being aware of this fancy T push. But you cant do anything with said information because you cant compare it your build unless you are doing math via the youtube/blip whatever time bar which is just ridiculous. I mean if your a T you could totally make use of the video without the time. But for the Protoss player it means absolutely nothing say for entertainment value. I mean that point aside, for a strategical cast, does it even matter if the time is showing or not? I mean its not like Day9's main goal is to entertain. He even says at the beginning of the cast, "The Day9 daily, where you can become a better gamer". Well why not let players make the most out of the daily? Like Im a zerg and Idra does this uber fancy thing winning him the game vs Strelok. But strelok does this amazing timing push that I am not sure I can handle. So I note the time he pushes, his units, upgrades, food whatever. And then through the time, I compare it to what I have when he pushes.
Lol you still don't get it. Ready what I posted like 5 posts back.
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On September 06 2010 12:31 orangecoconut wrote:
These vidoes could offer more strategic value to many players with a trivial change.
It's not a trivial change. It's an incredibly substantial change.
If it's so trivial, could you do a mockup of an overlay with a hole in it? And keep the sponsor logo intact?
Also, sense of time is subjective. In a recent Daily, Day9 did two toss openings, one a fast expand with three bases, the other a one-base four gate. Even though the one base four gate seemed a lot faster (both to myself and Day9), it actually took longer than the expanding build.
Not knowing that was an important part of that example, because in a real game you don't know.
You're arguing as if there are no good reasons to have the overlay as is, and as if there are absolutely no downsides to showing the time. And you're claiming it takes zero effort.
All of those things are patently untrue.
But you know what's trivial? Running your own stopwatch if you want to know the exact timings.
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Addressing your "don't really want to hunt for the replay of every game I've just seen casted"-
How many replays of games do you actually see casted? Most people stream live games so there isn't a game clock anyways, and Day9 casts usually 1 replay per daily, so... It's really too much work to find 1 replay? If you are suffering from google-phobia then I'm sorry
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On September 06 2010 12:32 mOnion wrote:
its not valid you're just terrible
you're trying to sway casters who literally have years and years more experience than you in this field. day9 has been playing for forever and Psy was like C in BW so I would think they know quite a bit more than you do.
the fact is that you're never going to have a clock on your screen, or a stopwatch with you at a live tournament. so the best way to judge when to push is based on food. sure the time seems more accurate but its actually incredibly ambiguous, way moreso than food count. when ppl say "blah blah and this push comes at 8 minute 30 second i always respond with "ok and what?" because that tells you nothing about the strenght of the push.
what makes a push strong is your food count in comparison to your opponents food and tech. if your 80 food push comes when your opponents spire is just about to finish then thats a timing, it has nothing to do with actual time.
also your attitude towards mods is pretty shitty. bow to manifesto.
edit: also having the bar there spoils shit, which ppl have already said
Well thanks for the BM, I hope you feel oh so good about yourself. And I dont think disagreeing with a mod is a shitty attitude, and Im not going to let his opinion just roll over mine just because hes a mod.
Yes I know Im bad comparatively, But Im not awful .Cminus in BW, and a tad above 900 diamond right now.
Maybe I am just not wording this well enough. So now Im going to just preface with this. All of what I am saying applies to what your doing out of game. Not in game, out of game.
I am going to go through an example so you can understand what I am saying.
The time of the replay is not blocked.-
You are a Protoss player, you watch a Day9 daily. You see BratOK, do a ghost push that kills the protoss. You are not sure whether what you do vs T, can survive this exact push. So, what you do is, you take down the time he pushes, and what he has at that time. Units, upgrades, food whatever you want. You see that at 7minutes and 30 seconds, he pushes out with stim, combat shield, 20 rines, 2 ghosts and a medivac. Now, either through having it written down, or looking through one of your own replays, in the build you do, what you have at 7 minutes and 30 seconds. At this point, in your head, you decide whether you can survive it or not. If you flat out now you'll win, dont worry about that style anymore, because you know you will just beat it (concept Day9 calls the imaginary player). But if you flat out know you are going to lose to it, get a practice partner and play against that style making adjustments and changes to where you have a solid deviation down to where you can beat it. If its ambiguous on whether or not you can beat it, either go into the unit tester, or just practice with your friend anyway. After this entire process is done, technically you should have gotten better, because you are now aware of the deviations you have to, or dont have to make against this style to win.
Another application would just be the whole "knowing things without seeing". Like when a player gets a spire. Watching a Vod, you see a Z puts his spire down at 6 minutes and 30 seconds. You go into one of your replays where you are vs Z, you skip to 6 minutes and 30 seconds you see your at 50 food. So now you know at 50 food your opponent is putting a spire down
Whether or not it spoils something or not is just a caster preference. I know Day9s intention for the Day9 daily is not to be entertainment, like HD or Husky, but for people to get better so I dont see how being spoiled on when the game ends should matter.
And please, I know your quite good, but dont just outright say Im a bronze jackass who doesnt know what hes talking about.
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On September 06 2010 12:39 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:23 piegasm wrote:On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? What people are saying is that the time is ultimately irrelevant except as a yardstick so you can see your improvement. Quickness comes from repetition, not from trying to have 80 supply in X minutes. As you repeat the build order, you will gradually do it more and more quickly and you'll eventually have 80 supply in X minutes, regardless of whether you ever know the value of X. Leaving that aside, just watch other replays. It's not reasonable to ask casters to change how they broadcast to suit your desire to know the time when you have nearly unlimited options for watching replays without imposing upon anyone. ????? Did you read what I wrote? I am not talking about copying a build order. Okay granted thats the main focus is, but its really not for some people. Like lets say Day9 is doing a TvP focusing on the T. Your a protoss, what you would get from this cast, is being aware of this fancy T push. But you cant do anything with said information because you cant compare it your build unless you are doing math via the youtube/blip whatever time bar which is just ridiculous. I mean if your a T you could totally make use of the video without the time. But for the Protoss player it means absolutely nothing say for entertainment value. I mean that point aside, for a strategical cast, does it even matter if the time is showing or not? I mean its not like Day9's main goal is to entertain. He even says at the beginning of the cast, "The Day9 daily, where you can become a better gamer". Well why not let players make the most out of the daily? Like Im a zerg and Idra does this uber fancy thing winning him the game vs Strelok. But strelok does this amazing timing push that I am not sure I can handle. So I note the time he pushes, his units, upgrades, food whatever. And then through the time, I compare it to what I have when he pushes.
I. Know. You're. Not. Copying. A. Build. Order. You describe getting beaten because your opponent had 80 food at a point in time where you had 70, correct? So you want to have 80 or more food in the same length of time. You don't actually need to know that length of time in order to hit 80 food in that time. You have to build faster. You build faster by repetition of your build order (which you are not, in fact, copying...yes we heard you), not by trying to get there in a specific amount of time. You don't need to know the time in order to beat the time. When an athlete runs a race, he's not trying to cross the finish line in X amount of time. He's trying to cross it as quickly as he can.
AND...all of this is moot because there are THOUSANDS of replays you can download and watch in order to compare the times at which both players hit supply milestones, not to mention your own replays. You're not dependent on watching videos on Youtube. What Day9's main goal is, is for Day9 to decide, not you. Day9 reckons he values not spoiling the game above showing the time for the people who may want it. So get your information somewhere other than Day9. You might have a valid point if Day9 was the only source of the information you wanted.
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On September 06 2010 12:49 kojinshugi wrote:
It's not a trivial change. It's an incredibly substantial change.
If it's so trivial, could you do a mockup of an overlay with a hole in it? And keep the sponsor logo intact?
Oh dear. You've created a straw man, now on to the attack! Haha. Of course, this isn't what I suggested at all, you did back on page 1. Not loading up the overlay is a trivial change.
It could be turned on when there's a point to be made by hiding the time, as in the 4 warp gate example. That's adding to the strategic value, which is a good thing!
Running a stopwatch, as has been pointed out (read the thread! It's only a few pages), is not trivial with pausing/rewinding going on. It's not even practical I'm afraid.
And.. just because you're being really antagonistic, and I feel like throwing some crumbs to the troll - as a programmer, I can assure you that changing the overlay from one image to two really shouldn't be all that hard. But it's not something I'd ask of anyone, because in programming even simple things can be a pain in the ass sometimes. In fact, if anyone has the source for the current overlay I'll make one fit around the time myself.
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On September 06 2010 12:56 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:32 mOnion wrote:
its not valid you're just terrible
you're trying to sway casters who literally have years and years more experience than you in this field. day9 has been playing for forever and Psy was like C in BW so I would think they know quite a bit more than you do.
the fact is that you're never going to have a clock on your screen, or a stopwatch with you at a live tournament. so the best way to judge when to push is based on food. sure the time seems more accurate but its actually incredibly ambiguous, way moreso than food count. when ppl say "blah blah and this push comes at 8 minute 30 second i always respond with "ok and what?" because that tells you nothing about the strenght of the push.
what makes a push strong is your food count in comparison to your opponents food and tech. if your 80 food push comes when your opponents spire is just about to finish then thats a timing, it has nothing to do with actual time.
also your attitude towards mods is pretty shitty. bow to manifesto.
edit: also having the bar there spoils shit, which ppl have already said Well thanks for the BM, I hope you feel oh so good about yourself. And I dont think disagreeing with a mod is a shitty attitude, and Im not going to let his opinion just roll over mine just because hes a mod. Yes I know Im bad comparatively, But Im not awful .Cminus in BW, and a tad above 900 diamond right now. Maybe I am just not wording this well enough. So now Im going to just preface with this. All of what I am saying applies to what your doing out of game. Not in game, out of game. I am going to go through an example so you can understand what I am saying. The time of the replay is not blocked.- You are a Protoss player, you watch a Day9 daily. You see BratOK, do a ghost push that kills the protoss. You are not sure whether what you do vs T, can survive this exact push. So, what you do is, you take down the time he pushes, and what he has at that time. Units, upgrades, food whatever you want. You see that at 7minutes and 30 seconds, he pushes out with stim, combat shield, 20 rines, 2 ghosts and a medivac. Now, either through having it written down, or looking through one of your own replays, in the build you do, what you have at 7 minutes and 30 seconds. At this point, in your head, you decide whether you can survive it or not. If you flat out now you'll win, dont worry about that style anymore, because you know you will just beat it (concept Day9 calls the imaginary player). But if you flat out know you are going to lose to it, get a practice partner and play against that style making adjustments and changes to where you have a solid deviation down to where you can beat it. If its ambiguous on whether or not you can beat it, either go into the unit tester, or just practice with your friend anyway. After this entire process is done, technically you should have gotten better, because you are now aware of the deviations you have to, or dont have to make against this style to win. Whether or not it spoils something or not is just a caster preference. I know Day9s intention for the Day9 daily is not to be entertainment, like HD or Husky, but for people to get better so I dont see how being spoiled on when the game ends should matter. And please, I know your quite good, but dont just outright say Im a bronze jackass who doesnt know what hes talking about.
But you shouldn't have a build order for PvT that you have to hope can survive a certain push at a certain time from a certain player. You should be scouting and adjusting your build, just like BratOK would be adjusting his build based on your actions (just sticking with your example). His push may come quicker if you don't harass as much as his opponent in the replay, or later if you harass more. Knowing what time a push comes out between 2 players will not help you as much as you seem to think if you were to face that player. Even with the same build order, every game has differences that will change those specific timings.
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On September 06 2010 13:01 orangecoconut wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:49 kojinshugi wrote:
It's not a trivial change. It's an incredibly substantial change.
If it's so trivial, could you do a mockup of an overlay with a hole in it? And keep the sponsor logo intact?
Running a stopwatch, as has been pointed out (read the thread! It's only a few pages), is not trivial with pausing/rewinding going on. It's not even practical I'm afraid.
Day [9] often mentions where he downloads his replays from, and I'm sure there's a good chance he'd respond to a pm asking for his source if he doesn't say it in the daily. You can easily get that replay yourself and sit there with a stopwatch.
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On September 06 2010 12:56 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:32 mOnion wrote:
its not valid you're just terrible
you're trying to sway casters who literally have years and years more experience than you in this field. day9 has been playing for forever and Psy was like C in BW so I would think they know quite a bit more than you do.
the fact is that you're never going to have a clock on your screen, or a stopwatch with you at a live tournament. so the best way to judge when to push is based on food. sure the time seems more accurate but its actually incredibly ambiguous, way moreso than food count. when ppl say "blah blah and this push comes at 8 minute 30 second i always respond with "ok and what?" because that tells you nothing about the strenght of the push.
what makes a push strong is your food count in comparison to your opponents food and tech. if your 80 food push comes when your opponents spire is just about to finish then thats a timing, it has nothing to do with actual time.
also your attitude towards mods is pretty shitty. bow to manifesto.
edit: also having the bar there spoils shit, which ppl have already said Well thanks for the BM, I hope you feel oh so good about yourself. And I dont think disagreeing with a mod is a shitty attitude, and Im not going to let his opinion just roll over mine just because hes a mod. Yes I know Im bad comparatively, But Im not awful .Cminus in BW, and a tad above 900 diamond right now. Maybe I am just not wording this well enough. So now Im going to just preface with this. All of what I am saying applies to what your doing out of game. Not in game, out of game. I am going to go through an example so you can understand what I am saying. The time of the replay is not blocked.- You are a Protoss player, you watch a Day9 daily. You see BratOK, do a ghost push that kills the protoss. You are not sure whether what you do vs T, can survive this exact push. So, what you do is, you take down the time he pushes, and what he has at that time. Units, upgrades, food whatever you want. You see that at 7minutes and 30 seconds, he pushes out with stim, combat shield, 20 rines, 2 ghosts and a medivac. Now, either through having it written down, or looking through one of your own replays, in the build you do, what you have at 7 minutes and 30 seconds. At this point, in your head, you decide whether you can survive it or not. If you flat out now you'll win, dont worry about that style anymore, because you know you will just beat it (concept Day9 calls the imaginary player). But if you flat out know you are going to lose to it, get a practice partner and play against that style making adjustments and changes to where you have a solid deviation down to where you can beat it. If its ambiguous on whether or not you can beat it, either go into the unit tester, or just practice with your friend anyway. After this entire process is done, technically you should have gotten better, because you are now aware of the deviations you have to, or dont have to make against this style to win. Another application would just be the whole "knowing things without seeing". Like when a player gets a spire. Watching a Vod, you see a Z puts his spire down at 6 minutes and 30 seconds. You go into one of your replays where you are vs Z, you skip to 6 minutes and 30 seconds you see your at 50 food. So now you know at 50 food your opponent is putting a spire down Whether or not it spoils something or not is just a caster preference. I know Day9s intention for the Day9 daily is not to be entertainment, like HD or Husky, but for people to get better so I dont see how being spoiled on when the game ends should matter. And please, I know your quite good, but dont just outright say Im a bronze jackass who doesnt know what hes talking about.
ok I see what you're saying. my bad.
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On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game.
this, but still why not just get a general idea. id hate to have my build timed out because if one thing goes wrong it throws your entire timing out the window. just use more broad generalizations.
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On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game.
pro response! mani to the rescue
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isn't this exactly what day9 hates? just copying exactly what someone else does like i don't understand this entirely but that's mainly because i don't like to copy someones exact timings i use their as day9 would say broad strokes and make it my own to play to my strengths, and if you're trying to copy a build and you lose to a certain push that's what tweaking your play and your builds to make them able to stop such things is exactly for lol i really don't agree with your logic at all the replay blocking makes the games much, much more enjoyable.
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On September 06 2010 12:59 piegasm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:39 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 12:23 piegasm wrote:On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? What people are saying is that the time is ultimately irrelevant except as a yardstick so you can see your improvement. Quickness comes from repetition, not from trying to have 80 supply in X minutes. As you repeat the build order, you will gradually do it more and more quickly and you'll eventually have 80 supply in X minutes, regardless of whether you ever know the value of X. Leaving that aside, just watch other replays. It's not reasonable to ask casters to change how they broadcast to suit your desire to know the time when you have nearly unlimited options for watching replays without imposing upon anyone. ????? Did you read what I wrote? I am not talking about copying a build order. Okay granted thats the main focus is, but its really not for some people. Like lets say Day9 is doing a TvP focusing on the T. Your a protoss, what you would get from this cast, is being aware of this fancy T push. But you cant do anything with said information because you cant compare it your build unless you are doing math via the youtube/blip whatever time bar which is just ridiculous. I mean if your a T you could totally make use of the video without the time. But for the Protoss player it means absolutely nothing say for entertainment value. I mean that point aside, for a strategical cast, does it even matter if the time is showing or not? I mean its not like Day9's main goal is to entertain. He even says at the beginning of the cast, "The Day9 daily, where you can become a better gamer". Well why not let players make the most out of the daily? Like Im a zerg and Idra does this uber fancy thing winning him the game vs Strelok. But strelok does this amazing timing push that I am not sure I can handle. So I note the time he pushes, his units, upgrades, food whatever. And then through the time, I compare it to what I have when he pushes. I. Know. You're. Not. Copying. A. Build. Order. You describe getting beaten because your opponent had 80 food at a point in time where you had 70, correct? So you want to have 80 or more food in the same length of time. You don't actually need to know that length of time in order to hit 80 food in that time. You have to build faster. You build faster by repetition of your build order (which you are not, in fact, copying...yes we heard you), not by trying to get there in a specific amount of time. You don't need to know the time in order to beat the time. When an athlete runs a race, he's not trying to cross the finish line in X amount of time. He's trying to cross it as quickly as he can. AND...all of this is moot because there are THOUSANDS of replays you can download and watch in order to compare the times at which both players hit supply milestones, not to mention your own replays. You're not dependent on watching videos on Youtube. What Day9's main goal is, is for Day9 to decide, not you. Day9 reckons he values not spoiling the game above showing the time for the people who may want it. So get your information somewhere other than Day9. You might have a valid point if Day9 was the only source of the information you wanted.
As to the first paragraph:
The whole point is realizing what you need to do. Granted, building faster may be your solution. Whatever you need to do, really doesnt matter. The whole point is realizing you need to do something. Of course the other application is what I detailed to mOnion in where you learn something like a spire timing.
As to the second:
What?!?! Im not dependent on just watching Day9 and Youtube??? Gaspgaspgasp.
Yes I realize this. Of course I realize this. I (and I assume the OP) dont see why you cant have the replay timer open, so we could possibly learn/get more out of the cast.
I also realize that Day9's intention is Day9's intention. But can we not make a thread trying to give constructive critism? Me saying that its not Day9s point to be entertainment, yet to help people get better is just an argument. Invalid or not, still an argument. Its still a valid point, because in my eyes, there is no reason for him not to show the replay bar. Sure I could watch a replay and learn the same thing, but if I am watching Day9, why cant I just kill 2 birds with one stone, so to speak.
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food is a way better measurement of time for sc. time is irrelevant unless you play the exact same game that the player played in the replay.
the reason is that the pro player is tweaking their play subtly to meet the exact demands of their game. making small adjustments based on their opponent. food is used for:make expansion at __ food, first push at around __ food. not: slightly change unit composition at __ time.
time has no real relativity in-game compared to food. a 60 food push means that you have like 30 food worth of units to push with at least. with a 5 minute push means nothing. you could have one ghost.
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On September 06 2010 13:10 Elevenst wrote:
isn't this exactly what day9 hates? just copying exactly what someone else does Nah, he has mentioned so many times about himself "stealing" the strat of whoever beated him on the ladder. What he means is not to stay forever in such mode, but experimenting as you get better.
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EPT
