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Please (please) ditch the 'anti spoiler' boxes hiding the game time in replays.
Your casts are focused on strategy, yet you're obscuring one of the most valuable pieces of information available to your viewers. Your videos may rock my socks, but without being able to see the game time it's far harder than it should be to match what we're seeing with our existing knowledge of timings.
I want to be able to check the clock, go "oh his <x push> is ready to go at 6:05" rather than "if I do the exact build I'm seeing this guy do here, I'll have <y building> at 50% when he's moving out". The latter has it's advantages, but they're irrelevant to this discussion - showing the time won't stop anyone using that method.
Yes, there are ways around this, but I don't really want to hunt for the replay of every game I've just seen casted. Making one forum thread is so much easier.
And anyway, what are us (your loyal, loving [no homo] followers) gaining from this evil little box? Well, it's slightly harder to guess the length of the game. Slightly, because videos have a progress bar.
Sounds like a raw deal to me.
Obviously, this doesn't apply to casters that are doing their thing for entertainment value only. Husky, HD, etc... box. Box everywhere. Make things exciting, I'm not watching your vids to learn.
Otherwise, top stuff lads. Keep it cracking.
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I agree in principle, but if the games are actual matches instead of some ladder nonsense, a lot of viewers will also want to watch them as entertainment/sport.
Use a stopwatch or just download the actual replay (if available).
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All of these isses could be solved by having strategic box placement that shows current time but hides total time and progress bar.
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Osaka27149 Posts
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game.
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I agree, I don't think I will care about spoilers unless it's a tournament game.
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maybe they should just hide the progress bar and the max. replay time and only show the current time they're at
On September 06 2010 11:08 kojinshugi wrote:
Use a stopwatch or just download the actual replay (if available).
that doesn't really work in the kind of casts he means, they rewind and slow-mo the replay all the time, pretty hard to use a stopwatch there 
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What if they just add a timer that goes up, while still hiding the progress bar.
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If you really care that much use a stopwatch or some other timer. Demanding that casters create some weird overlay with a hole in it is absolutely silly.
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I think you can just judge timings by supply and other buildings... the actual time is less important imo
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I think supply is a much better way to gauge the length of a game. It encourages you to keep your macro up so your supply count keeps going up.
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On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game.
Really?
Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod.
The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food.
You cant compare or make decisions through food, unless you know the times things happen.
And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject.
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Dear Blizzard,
Your UI is limited and needs additional features for replays.
1. Allow for Production, income and APM to be viewed simultaneously.
2. Allow for the timer to be hidden, or just allow the progress bar to be hidden.
 on't feel like posting on the Battle.net forums. but you get the idea, direct this at Blizzard the casters are simply working with what they have and need additional options imo.
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On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant tell anything through food, unless you know the times things happen. And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject.
Top right corner does not show the food? Really?
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Osaka27149 Posts
On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant tell anything through food, unless you know the times things happen.
There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30. But, if you say "pro player moves out at 90 food, I will too" you will be. From that point on it is up to you to get to that 90 food as fast as possible. That is mechanics though, not strategy.
If the caster leaves the supply bar up, or if he clicks on a player's unit, you can see the food. It is right there in the top corner, you can't miss it. -(Aassuming he is in a replay, if he isn't then this whole thread is moot anyway).
And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject.
Yeah I bet he loves that.
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What Day 9 does, at least in my eyes, is discuss strategy on a high level instead of on a specific, detail-oriented level. Don't get me wrong, he's great at pin-pointing subtleties and especially connections between events that transpire in game, but since he speaks to a large audience of various skill levels, he doesn't walk you through the potentially rigid nitty gritty of builds.
Some viewers are veterans at executing build orders crisply, some don't know build orders, some don't even know what they are. His education seems to be aimed at discussing the "why?" behind specific elements in play, not every "what?"
Even in the age before SC2, his cast was an entirely different resource from, say, well crafted [G] threads (Stylish's VODs, 4 gate 2 archon guide, 5 hatch hydra muta guide), which detailed not only supply counts and times, but scouting tips, goals at different game stages, adaptations, etc.
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no way- I don't wanna get spoilered!
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Day9 doesn't want you to know the time something comes, but he wants you to be able to know IN GAME when you should do something, unless you have a 3rd party timer in your game you wont know your exact time in game anyways. So it's better to go off of supply counts, army size, tech structures and upgrades to know when something should happen. You should know "Oh speed just finished upgrading, it's time to attack this terran because he wont be able to defend it easily" and stuff like that.
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You can't see game time while you are playing an actual game, so I don't see how it's such a useful piece of information.
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On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply?
Because it's mathematically impossible to get X supply before Y seconds depending on the build.
It doesn't matter whether he pushes at 4 minutes 32 seconds. It matters that he builds structures A and B in a specific order and then makes units out of them. How many units you can make is constrained by supply and income, not some arbitrary amount of time.
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Day9 is all about the high level strategy/thought processes that players go through, not specific builds. If you want to lift specific builds from something, get a replay pack.
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On September 06 2010 11:24 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant tell anything through food, unless you know the times things happen. There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30. But, if you say "pro player moves out at 90 food, I will too" you will be. From that point on it is up to you to get to that 90 food as fast as possible. That is mechanics though, not strategy. If the caster leaves the supply bar up, or if he clicks on a player's unit, you can see the food. It is right there in the top corner, you can't miss it. -(Aassuming he is in a replay, if he isn't then this whole thread is moot anyway).
Your thinking about it in a different way I guess. What I mean is like your thinking of the person your watching as your opponent, not yourself. Which to me is one of the bigger reasons to watch replays/vods. I mean yeah if you do what he does and push at 90 food, I mean thats okay you can tell through that. What I mean is "In a BratOK style, at 6 30 he pushes with 80 food. In my style at 6 30 I have 70 food. I need to change some things so I can get more food by 6 30 so I can survive this push."
I mean the example doesnt make a lot of practical sense but I think you get the jist. So by through watching the replay/vod and comparing you know either you need to worry about this thing and practice against it. Or you dont need to worry about it.
I think thats the most practical sense of watching a strategical cast, where you just compare your builds against the builds your seeing. I think thats the point the OP is trying to put up.
[QUOTE]On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:
[quote]And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I bet he loves that.[/QUOTE]
I didnt sent the PMs like 5 seconds in a row. Very spread out. Maybe the first one was right when he put up the blocker thing. Then after 3 months I sent another one. And then the most recent one was about a month ago.
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Yeah, I am completely 100% against this suggestion. Manifesto sums it up pretty well, just use the damn food counts, which are far more useful than timings. Aside from the obvious points pointed out already such as skill gap, how do you plan on timing when you move out ingame based on those times? It isn't realtime, so if you have a stopwatch you'll be off there. And there isn't an ingame clock based off ingame time that can be shown. So surely, the food count method is not only easier and doesn't require the spoiling of the game, but it is also far more effective?
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I would say for streams focused around analyzing games like for example day 9 daily, there's no need for a spoiler box, since day9 himself says it's goal isn't to be entertained by the games. For the typical commentary though, spoiler boxes are important for making pushes and dangerous situations more suspenseful to the viewer. Who's going to be tense when the replay bar shows this push will end the game before it even engages, or if it reveals the opposite? Even a harass or push 10 minutes into the game loses its intensity when you can clearly see the game lasts 45 minutes, meaning the engagement will most likely have little impact in the grand scheme of things. While if the timer was covered, this game Could be under 15 minutes long for all we know. It would be a lot more suspenseful to the viewer when the results are unknown, making it more entertaining. It's better not knowing.
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On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant compare or make decisions through food, unless you know the times things happen. And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject.
I think you should PM him more. lol
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Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to know the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything.
To reiterate:
useful information: buildings and units built. actions taken with units. positions of buildings.
not useful information: the times things happen. clearly they are going to just happen as quickly as possible, what else would a player possibly do.
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On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game.
pretty much
I think most people base timings off supply anyways when they're play (adjusted for unit or economic losses) instead of having a stopwatch next to them that they start every time they start the game
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I understand wanting to know the times things happen as a reference point. You watch a replay, you die at around X time because your opponent had 10 more food than you. You make note of that time and then you check your build order tab after each game just to check that you're getting closer to having 10 more food yourself by X time. It's just a way to measure whether you've actually improved.
On the other hand, there's a metric crap-ton of SC2 replay sites full of more replays than you could watch in a lifetime. I see no reason why you need to make your comparisons specifically from casted matches.
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On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything.
But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game, and hence you know you need to practice against it, before you hit the ladder or go into a tournament.
Is it affect? I can never tell which one is which
And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you.
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On September 06 2010 11:24 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant tell anything through food, unless you know the times things happen. There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30. But, if you say "pro player moves out at 90 food, I will too" you will be. From that point on it is up to you to get to that 90 food as fast as possible. That is mechanics though, not strategy. If the caster leaves the supply bar up, or if he clicks on a player's unit, you can see the food. It is right there in the top corner, you can't miss it. -(Aassuming he is in a replay, if he isn't then this whole thread is moot anyway). Show nested quote +And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject. Yeah I bet he loves that.
No. You're very wrong dude.
Anyone with decent mechanics (D+ level on iccup or even worse) can run basically a perfect timing attack down to the second.
It's very important to know when builds mature and when attacks hit down by time, not foodcount. Frequently things like worker cutting lead to similar food counts at different times. Zerg can be 2 food behind by losing some early lings. Early pressure can throw off food counts a bit. It's so important to know the exact timings. It gives a metric by which new builds can be measured to see if they're viable or not, or what they have to watch out for.
It's also very important for newer players to have a goal to reach. It's not useful to say "this 4 warpgate hits at 42 food." It will take a newer player an extra minute to reach there perhaps because his macro is bad and he doesn't constantly make probes, or he loses a few units early to some sort of early pressure, or misses chronoboosts. That player will look at the pro rep and see the same supply and say to himself "what am I doing wrong, I have the same stuff!" However, if that player knew he had that stuff a minute late he'd know he has problems and he'd know what to work towards. Seeing that warpgate finished at 6:25 is more important than seeing that it finished at 28 food.
It's a very valid concern by the OP.
However, an ingame clock or clock overlay would help solve that. Is there an option to turn on a clock? I'm sure a program can be developed that would do this, regardless.
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On September 06 2010 12:10 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything. But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game. Isnt it affect? I can never tell which one is which And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you.
But what's important is you understanding when supply-wise to build tech structures. You learn the build order that way, and then just do it as quickly as possible. Then practice and do it quicker. The information you want will come from a good build order and good scouting, not from saying "A 4 gate pushes out at x time"
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"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway.
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On September 06 2010 12:15 AJMcSpiffy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:10 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything. But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game. Isnt it affect? I can never tell which one is which And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you. But what's important is you understanding when supply-wise to build tech structures. You learn the build order that way, and then just do it as quickly as possible. Then practice and do it quicker. The information you want will come from a good build order and good scouting, not from saying "A 4 gate pushes out at x time"
But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it.
On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway.
Why does everyone seem to miss the point? Yes it does seem rather narcissistic, but its a very, very valid point. I just think its not being listened to because no one is understanding or realizing why its important to see the time.
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On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway.
what this guy said
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I'd rather address Blizzard, as I'm sure it's embarrassing that the game requires ext. mumbo-jumbo.
Include UI option to hide total replay time -> so many awkward casting problems solved.
Day9 & Co. use cover bars as a temporary workaround, not because they prefer it that way.
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On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:15 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On September 06 2010 12:10 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything. But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game. Isnt it affect? I can never tell which one is which And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you. But what's important is you understanding when supply-wise to build tech structures. You learn the build order that way, and then just do it as quickly as possible. Then practice and do it quicker. The information you want will come from a good build order and good scouting, not from saying "A 4 gate pushes out at x time" But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point?
What people are saying is that the time is ultimately irrelevant except as a yardstick so you can see your improvement. Quickness comes from repetition, not from trying to have 80 supply in X minutes. As you repeat the build order, you will gradually do it more and more quickly and you'll eventually have 80 supply in X minutes, regardless of whether you ever know the value of X.
Leaving that aside, just watch other replays. It's not reasonable to ask casters to change how they broadcast to suit your desire to know the time when you have nearly unlimited options for watching replays without imposing upon anyone.
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rodrigo i think you're right and it is affect i have trouble with that one too, clearly
lol
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On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:15 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On September 06 2010 12:10 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything. But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game. Isnt it affect? I can never tell which one is which And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you. But what's important is you understanding when supply-wise to build tech structures. You learn the build order that way, and then just do it as quickly as possible. Then practice and do it quicker. The information you want will come from a good build order and good scouting, not from saying "A 4 gate pushes out at x time" But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? Yes it does seem rather narcissistic, but its a very, very valid point. I just think its not being listened to because no one is understanding or realizing why its important to see the time.
Because your mindset is stupid and you overvalue the time. Trying to set specific times when u get your stuff is ridiculous because it's gonna vary game to game depending on how the game progresses. Maybe the opponent goes for another kind of tech that requires you lay a bunker or float a CC a little later or ahve your ebay up earlier. What if your economy gets delayed beucase something happens and you have to pull scvs or you lose your scout early and have to send another one or a pair of lings picks of a worker or 2? Theres a million things that can happen that will skew your timings, which is why its completely ridiculous to try and build everything at certain times. Instead, learn when to get stuff relative to other stuff, and sometimes relative to your food count.
I'll use an Sc1 example. Suppose I want to do the Flash build, a 2 attack 1 armor timing push. I time my starport when my +1 attack is halfway finished. If I do that, I can get a science facility right after and it finishes just as the +1 finishes, which allows me to get the +2 attack without delay. Obviously the time i set up my armory is gonna vary depending on what build i choose and what not, so it's pretty useles for me to tell myself something like "i need to get my starport at 15 minutes 36 seconds"
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On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game.
Supply only helps if you're mirroring the build of one of the players. You can argue that if you're doing something else, then the other player may be doing things differently too.. but this doesn't quite hold up, because most players still just blindly execute whichever build they decided on before the game.
It's the difference between:
"Build x will have y units at z minutes"
and
"Build x will have y units when I'm at z food if nothing has caused a deviation from the build I'm watching"
Also, if you doing something similar build you're watching, how then do you compare yourself with that player? How do you know which of you gets to x food first? You have to go check the replays... and compare the time.
On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30.
This isn't true. The difference in timings between top players and decent amatures is minimal in the early game when both are just executing a build. That isn't where the skill gap lies, but it is where timings are most useful. Of course, after the early game none of this matters.
If you're basing anything off timings you should be using most optimal time anyway. I don't care if I can get enough stuff to hold a weaker player if I just get rolled when playing someone that can execute a build properly.
If you're using food or something else for your timings, cool - we're doing things a bit differently. That doesn't constitute a reason for keeping the spoiler hiding nastiness.
Next up, paraphrased quotes:
Day[9] isn't about specific builds
This is true, it's not usually the focus of his casts. It's also not relevant to this discussion, because I'm suggesting a way that we can get more out of his casts without changing anything else. Like I said, we can get this information elsewhere, but it would be nice not to have to.
Why should he do something for you?
Oh screw it, here comes some bolded text:
These vidoes could offer more strategic value to many players with a trivial change. Since these are strategic casts this is in line with the focus of the videos and therefore should be implemented.
Please, argue this point if you wish to argue. Don't just say "you should do things differently". I'm not interested in debating that further, because I really don't understand how people can say that timings shouldn't matter at all for anyone trying to improve at this game.
edit: I'm going to qualify that last statement, because SubtleArt made a coherent point (yay!). Timings aren't a be-all and end-all, but they have their uses. While many of these overlap with other methods of timing (supply, buildings, whatever), there some some situations in which they aren't matched. For example, to see if a build can match the production of another in the same circumstances, or to see if one can get enough units by the time a certain push arrives.
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On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:15 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On September 06 2010 12:10 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything. But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game. Isnt it affect? I can never tell which one is which And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you. But what's important is you understanding when supply-wise to build tech structures. You learn the build order that way, and then just do it as quickly as possible. Then practice and do it quicker. The information you want will come from a good build order and good scouting, not from saying "A 4 gate pushes out at x time" But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? Yes it does seem rather narcissistic, but its a very, very valid point. I just think its not being listened to because no one is understanding or realizing why its important to see the time.
its not valid you're just terrible
you're trying to sway casters who literally have years and years more experience than you in this field. day9 has been playing for forever and Psy was like C in BW so I would think they know quite a bit more than you do.
the fact is that you're never going to have a clock on your screen, or a stopwatch with you at a live tournament. so the best way to judge when to push is based on food. sure the time seems more accurate but its actually incredibly ambiguous, way moreso than food count. when ppl say "blah blah and this push comes at 8 minute 30 second i always respond with "ok and what?" because that tells you nothing about the strenght of the push.
what makes a push strong is your food count in comparison to your opponents food and tech. if your 80 food push comes when your opponents spire is just about to finish then thats a timing, it has nothing to do with actual time.
also your attitude towards mods is pretty shitty. bow to manifesto.
edit: also having the bar there spoils shit, which ppl have already said
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I don't think clock timings are at all important in SC.
If you use good mechanics and follow the order of operations given in the video, you'll hit similar times because that's what build orders do, they allow you to get reasonably reliable results from game to game without the use of a stop watch when you play.
Day9 doesn't sit there and say "he's moving out" without showing you exactly what the build up to that moment is. He walks you through the build order and that gives you a fairly accurate timing to hit based on the game up until that point rather than making people rely on paying attention to scouting, production, micro, AND some stop watch. Have you not heard the man stress the words "Relative timing" enough yet to understand this? Seriously, he talks in Bold, Italics, and Underlined words when he says it...
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On September 06 2010 12:12 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:24 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant tell anything through food, unless you know the times things happen. There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30. But, if you say "pro player moves out at 90 food, I will too" you will be. From that point on it is up to you to get to that 90 food as fast as possible. That is mechanics though, not strategy. If the caster leaves the supply bar up, or if he clicks on a player's unit, you can see the food. It is right there in the top corner, you can't miss it. -(Aassuming he is in a replay, if he isn't then this whole thread is moot anyway). And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject. Yeah I bet he loves that. No. You're very wrong dude. Anyone with decent mechanics (D+ level on iccup or even worse) can run basically a perfect timing attack down to the second.
what the fuck.
i was D+/C- on iccup and i could never get 90 food at 9 minutes opening 12 hatch into 5 hatch hydra no matter how hard i tried. i always ended up about 10-15 food short. closest i ever got was 85 food vs the computer just running the BO 10 times over and over again. same with my mutas for 2hat muta timing in zvt, always at least 20-30 seconds behind. so i absolutely disagree with your statement.
unless of course you're talking about executing in sc2, in which case i pretty much agree.
that said, i do think having a goal for players to reach in terms of food at a certain time is very important, and do agree that knowing how much food you should aim to have at X time is great for developing a player's macro.
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
Lately TL reminds me of the WoW forums, complain about everything.
Anti-spoilers are way more important than the time ffs. Really?
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On September 06 2010 12:23 piegasm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? What people are saying is that the time is ultimately irrelevant except as a yardstick so you can see your improvement. Quickness comes from repetition, not from trying to have 80 supply in X minutes. As you repeat the build order, you will gradually do it more and more quickly and you'll eventually have 80 supply in X minutes, regardless of whether you ever know the value of X. Leaving that aside, just watch other replays. It's not reasonable to ask casters to change how they broadcast to suit your desire to know the time when you have nearly unlimited options for watching replays without imposing upon anyone.
?????
Did you read what I wrote? I am not talking about copying a build order. Okay granted thats the main focus is, but its really not for some people. Like lets say Day9 is doing a TvP focusing on the T. Your a protoss, what you would get from this cast, is being aware of this fancy T push. But you cant do anything with said information because you cant compare it your build unless you are doing math via the youtube/blip whatever time bar which is just ridiculous. I mean if your a T you could totally make use of the video without the time. But for the Protoss player it means absolutely nothing say for entertainment value.
I mean that point aside, for a strategical cast, does it even matter if the time is showing or not? I mean its not like Day9's main goal is to entertain. He even says at the beginning of the cast, "The Day9 daily, where you can become a better gamer". Well why not let players make the most out of the daily? Like Im a zerg and Idra does this uber fancy thing winning him the game vs Strelok. But strelok does this amazing timing push that I am not sure I can handle. So I note the time he pushes, his units, upgrades, food whatever. And then through the time, I compare it to what I have when he pushes.
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Honestly I see the OP's point. And I understand asking casters to change the way they do things might seem UNREAL... omg. But time is a very big part of the game and while you may not sit there in a game and be like OMG ITS 7:09 time to move out!. But you could get a general feeling of dam at 12minutes he's 150+ food and im still stuck at 90... there is a big flaw in your game that needs to be addressed weither its macro/micro, both. Now every game is different and you could be mid/high diamond and be maxed out at 12 minutes where as in the replay the pro is only at 120 food? why is this well maybe who you are playing just doesn't cut it and allows you to walk over him.
I wouldn't tell someone how to do the job personally, but im pretty sure people who do the work they do for a large audience would rather have some feedback rather then saying i am god and i am right.(not saying any of you are) But some of you people in this thread pretty much disclose his idea because you think its unearthly for him to ask for something that could help everyone, no one, maybe someone in someway.. eitherway I would see it as only benefical for the casters who are doing indepth strat talks.
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On September 06 2010 12:12 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:24 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant tell anything through food, unless you know the times things happen. There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30. But, if you say "pro player moves out at 90 food, I will too" you will be. From that point on it is up to you to get to that 90 food as fast as possible. That is mechanics though, not strategy. the amount of wrong in this thread is discouraging If the caster leaves the supply bar up, or if he clicks on a player's unit, you can see the food. It is right there in the top corner, you can't miss it. -(Aassuming he is in a replay, if he isn't then this whole thread is moot anyway). And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject. Yeah I bet he loves that. No. You're very wrong dude. Anyone with decent mechanics (D+ level on iccup or even worse) can run basically a perfect timing attack down to the second.
actually you're very wrong.
of course we can run timing attacks like that. down to the second. but no good player clocks his build every time he does it. once you get your mechanics (more important than ur build order) you'll be able to create similar scenarios each time you play
you're trying to fix too much too fast. your example uses a player who cant macro or make probes. well obviously that player should work on macro instead of trying to get a build order tight. once he handles the obvious flaw and can do it right every time then he can start working on getting a build order right the same time every time by working on relative timings instead of garbage clock shit
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On September 06 2010 12:39 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:23 piegasm wrote:On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? What people are saying is that the time is ultimately irrelevant except as a yardstick so you can see your improvement. Quickness comes from repetition, not from trying to have 80 supply in X minutes. As you repeat the build order, you will gradually do it more and more quickly and you'll eventually have 80 supply in X minutes, regardless of whether you ever know the value of X. Leaving that aside, just watch other replays. It's not reasonable to ask casters to change how they broadcast to suit your desire to know the time when you have nearly unlimited options for watching replays without imposing upon anyone. ????? Did you read what I wrote? I am not talking about copying a build order. Okay granted thats the main focus is, but its really not for some people. Like lets say Day9 is doing a TvP focusing on the T. Your a protoss, what you would get from this cast, is being aware of this fancy T push. But you cant do anything with said information because you cant compare it your build unless you are doing math via the youtube/blip whatever time bar which is just ridiculous. I mean if your a T you could totally make use of the video without the time. But for the Protoss player it means absolutely nothing say for entertainment value. I mean that point aside, for a strategical cast, does it even matter if the time is showing or not? I mean its not like Day9's main goal is to entertain. He even says at the beginning of the cast, "The Day9 daily, where you can become a better gamer". Well why not let players make the most out of the daily? Like Im a zerg and Idra does this uber fancy thing winning him the game vs Strelok. But strelok does this amazing timing push that I am not sure I can handle. So I note the time he pushes, his units, upgrades, food whatever. And then through the time, I compare it to what I have when he pushes.
Lol you still don't get it. Ready what I posted like 5 posts back.
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On September 06 2010 12:31 orangecoconut wrote:
These vidoes could offer more strategic value to many players with a trivial change.
It's not a trivial change. It's an incredibly substantial change.
If it's so trivial, could you do a mockup of an overlay with a hole in it? And keep the sponsor logo intact?
Also, sense of time is subjective. In a recent Daily, Day9 did two toss openings, one a fast expand with three bases, the other a one-base four gate. Even though the one base four gate seemed a lot faster (both to myself and Day9), it actually took longer than the expanding build.
Not knowing that was an important part of that example, because in a real game you don't know.
You're arguing as if there are no good reasons to have the overlay as is, and as if there are absolutely no downsides to showing the time. And you're claiming it takes zero effort.
All of those things are patently untrue.
But you know what's trivial? Running your own stopwatch if you want to know the exact timings.
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Addressing your "don't really want to hunt for the replay of every game I've just seen casted"-
How many replays of games do you actually see casted? Most people stream live games so there isn't a game clock anyways, and Day9 casts usually 1 replay per daily, so... It's really too much work to find 1 replay? If you are suffering from google-phobia then I'm sorry
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On September 06 2010 12:32 mOnion wrote:
its not valid you're just terrible
you're trying to sway casters who literally have years and years more experience than you in this field. day9 has been playing for forever and Psy was like C in BW so I would think they know quite a bit more than you do.
the fact is that you're never going to have a clock on your screen, or a stopwatch with you at a live tournament. so the best way to judge when to push is based on food. sure the time seems more accurate but its actually incredibly ambiguous, way moreso than food count. when ppl say "blah blah and this push comes at 8 minute 30 second i always respond with "ok and what?" because that tells you nothing about the strenght of the push.
what makes a push strong is your food count in comparison to your opponents food and tech. if your 80 food push comes when your opponents spire is just about to finish then thats a timing, it has nothing to do with actual time.
also your attitude towards mods is pretty shitty. bow to manifesto.
edit: also having the bar there spoils shit, which ppl have already said
Well thanks for the BM, I hope you feel oh so good about yourself. And I dont think disagreeing with a mod is a shitty attitude, and Im not going to let his opinion just roll over mine just because hes a mod.
Yes I know Im bad comparatively, But Im not awful .Cminus in BW, and a tad above 900 diamond right now.
Maybe I am just not wording this well enough. So now Im going to just preface with this. All of what I am saying applies to what your doing out of game. Not in game, out of game.
I am going to go through an example so you can understand what I am saying.
The time of the replay is not blocked.-
You are a Protoss player, you watch a Day9 daily. You see BratOK, do a ghost push that kills the protoss. You are not sure whether what you do vs T, can survive this exact push. So, what you do is, you take down the time he pushes, and what he has at that time. Units, upgrades, food whatever you want. You see that at 7minutes and 30 seconds, he pushes out with stim, combat shield, 20 rines, 2 ghosts and a medivac. Now, either through having it written down, or looking through one of your own replays, in the build you do, what you have at 7 minutes and 30 seconds. At this point, in your head, you decide whether you can survive it or not. If you flat out now you'll win, dont worry about that style anymore, because you know you will just beat it (concept Day9 calls the imaginary player). But if you flat out know you are going to lose to it, get a practice partner and play against that style making adjustments and changes to where you have a solid deviation down to where you can beat it. If its ambiguous on whether or not you can beat it, either go into the unit tester, or just practice with your friend anyway. After this entire process is done, technically you should have gotten better, because you are now aware of the deviations you have to, or dont have to make against this style to win.
Another application would just be the whole "knowing things without seeing". Like when a player gets a spire. Watching a Vod, you see a Z puts his spire down at 6 minutes and 30 seconds. You go into one of your replays where you are vs Z, you skip to 6 minutes and 30 seconds you see your at 50 food. So now you know at 50 food your opponent is putting a spire down
Whether or not it spoils something or not is just a caster preference. I know Day9s intention for the Day9 daily is not to be entertainment, like HD or Husky, but for people to get better so I dont see how being spoiled on when the game ends should matter.
And please, I know your quite good, but dont just outright say Im a bronze jackass who doesnt know what hes talking about.
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On September 06 2010 12:39 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:23 piegasm wrote:On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? What people are saying is that the time is ultimately irrelevant except as a yardstick so you can see your improvement. Quickness comes from repetition, not from trying to have 80 supply in X minutes. As you repeat the build order, you will gradually do it more and more quickly and you'll eventually have 80 supply in X minutes, regardless of whether you ever know the value of X. Leaving that aside, just watch other replays. It's not reasonable to ask casters to change how they broadcast to suit your desire to know the time when you have nearly unlimited options for watching replays without imposing upon anyone. ????? Did you read what I wrote? I am not talking about copying a build order. Okay granted thats the main focus is, but its really not for some people. Like lets say Day9 is doing a TvP focusing on the T. Your a protoss, what you would get from this cast, is being aware of this fancy T push. But you cant do anything with said information because you cant compare it your build unless you are doing math via the youtube/blip whatever time bar which is just ridiculous. I mean if your a T you could totally make use of the video without the time. But for the Protoss player it means absolutely nothing say for entertainment value. I mean that point aside, for a strategical cast, does it even matter if the time is showing or not? I mean its not like Day9's main goal is to entertain. He even says at the beginning of the cast, "The Day9 daily, where you can become a better gamer". Well why not let players make the most out of the daily? Like Im a zerg and Idra does this uber fancy thing winning him the game vs Strelok. But strelok does this amazing timing push that I am not sure I can handle. So I note the time he pushes, his units, upgrades, food whatever. And then through the time, I compare it to what I have when he pushes.
I. Know. You're. Not. Copying. A. Build. Order. You describe getting beaten because your opponent had 80 food at a point in time where you had 70, correct? So you want to have 80 or more food in the same length of time. You don't actually need to know that length of time in order to hit 80 food in that time. You have to build faster. You build faster by repetition of your build order (which you are not, in fact, copying...yes we heard you), not by trying to get there in a specific amount of time. You don't need to know the time in order to beat the time. When an athlete runs a race, he's not trying to cross the finish line in X amount of time. He's trying to cross it as quickly as he can.
AND...all of this is moot because there are THOUSANDS of replays you can download and watch in order to compare the times at which both players hit supply milestones, not to mention your own replays. You're not dependent on watching videos on Youtube. What Day9's main goal is, is for Day9 to decide, not you. Day9 reckons he values not spoiling the game above showing the time for the people who may want it. So get your information somewhere other than Day9. You might have a valid point if Day9 was the only source of the information you wanted.
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On September 06 2010 12:49 kojinshugi wrote:
It's not a trivial change. It's an incredibly substantial change.
If it's so trivial, could you do a mockup of an overlay with a hole in it? And keep the sponsor logo intact?
Oh dear. You've created a straw man, now on to the attack! Haha. Of course, this isn't what I suggested at all, you did back on page 1. Not loading up the overlay is a trivial change.
It could be turned on when there's a point to be made by hiding the time, as in the 4 warp gate example. That's adding to the strategic value, which is a good thing!
Running a stopwatch, as has been pointed out (read the thread! It's only a few pages), is not trivial with pausing/rewinding going on. It's not even practical I'm afraid.
And.. just because you're being really antagonistic, and I feel like throwing some crumbs to the troll - as a programmer, I can assure you that changing the overlay from one image to two really shouldn't be all that hard. But it's not something I'd ask of anyone, because in programming even simple things can be a pain in the ass sometimes. In fact, if anyone has the source for the current overlay I'll make one fit around the time myself.
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On September 06 2010 12:56 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:32 mOnion wrote:
its not valid you're just terrible
you're trying to sway casters who literally have years and years more experience than you in this field. day9 has been playing for forever and Psy was like C in BW so I would think they know quite a bit more than you do.
the fact is that you're never going to have a clock on your screen, or a stopwatch with you at a live tournament. so the best way to judge when to push is based on food. sure the time seems more accurate but its actually incredibly ambiguous, way moreso than food count. when ppl say "blah blah and this push comes at 8 minute 30 second i always respond with "ok and what?" because that tells you nothing about the strenght of the push.
what makes a push strong is your food count in comparison to your opponents food and tech. if your 80 food push comes when your opponents spire is just about to finish then thats a timing, it has nothing to do with actual time.
also your attitude towards mods is pretty shitty. bow to manifesto.
edit: also having the bar there spoils shit, which ppl have already said Well thanks for the BM, I hope you feel oh so good about yourself. And I dont think disagreeing with a mod is a shitty attitude, and Im not going to let his opinion just roll over mine just because hes a mod. Yes I know Im bad comparatively, But Im not awful .Cminus in BW, and a tad above 900 diamond right now. Maybe I am just not wording this well enough. So now Im going to just preface with this. All of what I am saying applies to what your doing out of game. Not in game, out of game. I am going to go through an example so you can understand what I am saying. The time of the replay is not blocked.- You are a Protoss player, you watch a Day9 daily. You see BratOK, do a ghost push that kills the protoss. You are not sure whether what you do vs T, can survive this exact push. So, what you do is, you take down the time he pushes, and what he has at that time. Units, upgrades, food whatever you want. You see that at 7minutes and 30 seconds, he pushes out with stim, combat shield, 20 rines, 2 ghosts and a medivac. Now, either through having it written down, or looking through one of your own replays, in the build you do, what you have at 7 minutes and 30 seconds. At this point, in your head, you decide whether you can survive it or not. If you flat out now you'll win, dont worry about that style anymore, because you know you will just beat it (concept Day9 calls the imaginary player). But if you flat out know you are going to lose to it, get a practice partner and play against that style making adjustments and changes to where you have a solid deviation down to where you can beat it. If its ambiguous on whether or not you can beat it, either go into the unit tester, or just practice with your friend anyway. After this entire process is done, technically you should have gotten better, because you are now aware of the deviations you have to, or dont have to make against this style to win. Whether or not it spoils something or not is just a caster preference. I know Day9s intention for the Day9 daily is not to be entertainment, like HD or Husky, but for people to get better so I dont see how being spoiled on when the game ends should matter. And please, I know your quite good, but dont just outright say Im a bronze jackass who doesnt know what hes talking about.
But you shouldn't have a build order for PvT that you have to hope can survive a certain push at a certain time from a certain player. You should be scouting and adjusting your build, just like BratOK would be adjusting his build based on your actions (just sticking with your example). His push may come quicker if you don't harass as much as his opponent in the replay, or later if you harass more. Knowing what time a push comes out between 2 players will not help you as much as you seem to think if you were to face that player. Even with the same build order, every game has differences that will change those specific timings.
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On September 06 2010 13:01 orangecoconut wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:49 kojinshugi wrote:
It's not a trivial change. It's an incredibly substantial change.
If it's so trivial, could you do a mockup of an overlay with a hole in it? And keep the sponsor logo intact?
Running a stopwatch, as has been pointed out (read the thread! It's only a few pages), is not trivial with pausing/rewinding going on. It's not even practical I'm afraid.
Day [9] often mentions where he downloads his replays from, and I'm sure there's a good chance he'd respond to a pm asking for his source if he doesn't say it in the daily. You can easily get that replay yourself and sit there with a stopwatch.
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On September 06 2010 12:56 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:32 mOnion wrote:
its not valid you're just terrible
you're trying to sway casters who literally have years and years more experience than you in this field. day9 has been playing for forever and Psy was like C in BW so I would think they know quite a bit more than you do.
the fact is that you're never going to have a clock on your screen, or a stopwatch with you at a live tournament. so the best way to judge when to push is based on food. sure the time seems more accurate but its actually incredibly ambiguous, way moreso than food count. when ppl say "blah blah and this push comes at 8 minute 30 second i always respond with "ok and what?" because that tells you nothing about the strenght of the push.
what makes a push strong is your food count in comparison to your opponents food and tech. if your 80 food push comes when your opponents spire is just about to finish then thats a timing, it has nothing to do with actual time.
also your attitude towards mods is pretty shitty. bow to manifesto.
edit: also having the bar there spoils shit, which ppl have already said Well thanks for the BM, I hope you feel oh so good about yourself. And I dont think disagreeing with a mod is a shitty attitude, and Im not going to let his opinion just roll over mine just because hes a mod. Yes I know Im bad comparatively, But Im not awful .Cminus in BW, and a tad above 900 diamond right now. Maybe I am just not wording this well enough. So now Im going to just preface with this. All of what I am saying applies to what your doing out of game. Not in game, out of game. I am going to go through an example so you can understand what I am saying. The time of the replay is not blocked.- You are a Protoss player, you watch a Day9 daily. You see BratOK, do a ghost push that kills the protoss. You are not sure whether what you do vs T, can survive this exact push. So, what you do is, you take down the time he pushes, and what he has at that time. Units, upgrades, food whatever you want. You see that at 7minutes and 30 seconds, he pushes out with stim, combat shield, 20 rines, 2 ghosts and a medivac. Now, either through having it written down, or looking through one of your own replays, in the build you do, what you have at 7 minutes and 30 seconds. At this point, in your head, you decide whether you can survive it or not. If you flat out now you'll win, dont worry about that style anymore, because you know you will just beat it (concept Day9 calls the imaginary player). But if you flat out know you are going to lose to it, get a practice partner and play against that style making adjustments and changes to where you have a solid deviation down to where you can beat it. If its ambiguous on whether or not you can beat it, either go into the unit tester, or just practice with your friend anyway. After this entire process is done, technically you should have gotten better, because you are now aware of the deviations you have to, or dont have to make against this style to win. Another application would just be the whole "knowing things without seeing". Like when a player gets a spire. Watching a Vod, you see a Z puts his spire down at 6 minutes and 30 seconds. You go into one of your replays where you are vs Z, you skip to 6 minutes and 30 seconds you see your at 50 food. So now you know at 50 food your opponent is putting a spire down Whether or not it spoils something or not is just a caster preference. I know Day9s intention for the Day9 daily is not to be entertainment, like HD or Husky, but for people to get better so I dont see how being spoiled on when the game ends should matter. And please, I know your quite good, but dont just outright say Im a bronze jackass who doesnt know what hes talking about.
ok I see what you're saying. my bad.
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On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game.
this, but still why not just get a general idea. id hate to have my build timed out because if one thing goes wrong it throws your entire timing out the window. just use more broad generalizations.
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On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game.
pro response! mani to the rescue
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isn't this exactly what day9 hates? just copying exactly what someone else does like i don't understand this entirely but that's mainly because i don't like to copy someones exact timings i use their as day9 would say broad strokes and make it my own to play to my strengths, and if you're trying to copy a build and you lose to a certain push that's what tweaking your play and your builds to make them able to stop such things is exactly for lol i really don't agree with your logic at all the replay blocking makes the games much, much more enjoyable.
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On September 06 2010 12:59 piegasm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:39 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 12:23 piegasm wrote:On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? What people are saying is that the time is ultimately irrelevant except as a yardstick so you can see your improvement. Quickness comes from repetition, not from trying to have 80 supply in X minutes. As you repeat the build order, you will gradually do it more and more quickly and you'll eventually have 80 supply in X minutes, regardless of whether you ever know the value of X. Leaving that aside, just watch other replays. It's not reasonable to ask casters to change how they broadcast to suit your desire to know the time when you have nearly unlimited options for watching replays without imposing upon anyone. ????? Did you read what I wrote? I am not talking about copying a build order. Okay granted thats the main focus is, but its really not for some people. Like lets say Day9 is doing a TvP focusing on the T. Your a protoss, what you would get from this cast, is being aware of this fancy T push. But you cant do anything with said information because you cant compare it your build unless you are doing math via the youtube/blip whatever time bar which is just ridiculous. I mean if your a T you could totally make use of the video without the time. But for the Protoss player it means absolutely nothing say for entertainment value. I mean that point aside, for a strategical cast, does it even matter if the time is showing or not? I mean its not like Day9's main goal is to entertain. He even says at the beginning of the cast, "The Day9 daily, where you can become a better gamer". Well why not let players make the most out of the daily? Like Im a zerg and Idra does this uber fancy thing winning him the game vs Strelok. But strelok does this amazing timing push that I am not sure I can handle. So I note the time he pushes, his units, upgrades, food whatever. And then through the time, I compare it to what I have when he pushes. I. Know. You're. Not. Copying. A. Build. Order. You describe getting beaten because your opponent had 80 food at a point in time where you had 70, correct? So you want to have 80 or more food in the same length of time. You don't actually need to know that length of time in order to hit 80 food in that time. You have to build faster. You build faster by repetition of your build order (which you are not, in fact, copying...yes we heard you), not by trying to get there in a specific amount of time. You don't need to know the time in order to beat the time. When an athlete runs a race, he's not trying to cross the finish line in X amount of time. He's trying to cross it as quickly as he can. AND...all of this is moot because there are THOUSANDS of replays you can download and watch in order to compare the times at which both players hit supply milestones, not to mention your own replays. You're not dependent on watching videos on Youtube. What Day9's main goal is, is for Day9 to decide, not you. Day9 reckons he values not spoiling the game above showing the time for the people who may want it. So get your information somewhere other than Day9. You might have a valid point if Day9 was the only source of the information you wanted.
As to the first paragraph:
The whole point is realizing what you need to do. Granted, building faster may be your solution. Whatever you need to do, really doesnt matter. The whole point is realizing you need to do something. Of course the other application is what I detailed to mOnion in where you learn something like a spire timing.
As to the second:
What?!?! Im not dependent on just watching Day9 and Youtube??? Gaspgaspgasp.
Yes I realize this. Of course I realize this. I (and I assume the OP) dont see why you cant have the replay timer open, so we could possibly learn/get more out of the cast.
I also realize that Day9's intention is Day9's intention. But can we not make a thread trying to give constructive critism? Me saying that its not Day9s point to be entertainment, yet to help people get better is just an argument. Invalid or not, still an argument. Its still a valid point, because in my eyes, there is no reason for him not to show the replay bar. Sure I could watch a replay and learn the same thing, but if I am watching Day9, why cant I just kill 2 birds with one stone, so to speak.
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food is a way better measurement of time for sc. time is irrelevant unless you play the exact same game that the player played in the replay.
the reason is that the pro player is tweaking their play subtly to meet the exact demands of their game. making small adjustments based on their opponent. food is used for:make expansion at __ food, first push at around __ food. not: slightly change unit composition at __ time.
time has no real relativity in-game compared to food. a 60 food push means that you have like 30 food worth of units to push with at least. with a 5 minute push means nothing. you could have one ghost.
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On September 06 2010 13:10 Elevenst wrote:
isn't this exactly what day9 hates? just copying exactly what someone else does Nah, he has mentioned so many times about himself "stealing" the strat of whoever beated him on the ladder. What he means is not to stay forever in such mode, but experimenting as you get better.
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Osaka27149 Posts
On September 06 2010 12:12 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:24 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant tell anything through food, unless you know the times things happen. There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30. But, if you say "pro player moves out at 90 food, I will too" you will be. From that point on it is up to you to get to that 90 food as fast as possible. That is mechanics though, not strategy. If the caster leaves the supply bar up, or if he clicks on a player's unit, you can see the food. It is right there in the top corner, you can't miss it. -(Aassuming he is in a replay, if he isn't then this whole thread is moot anyway). And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject. Yeah I bet he loves that. No. You're very wrong dude. Anyone with decent mechanics (D+ level on iccup or even worse) can run basically a perfect timing attack down to the second.
Sorry dude, but if you think someone on D+ is getting to the same place at the same time that an A player is getting, you don't know a damn thing about StarCraft. I am not talking about a 9 pool here...
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On September 06 2010 13:12 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:59 piegasm wrote:On September 06 2010 12:39 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 12:23 piegasm wrote:On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? What people are saying is that the time is ultimately irrelevant except as a yardstick so you can see your improvement. Quickness comes from repetition, not from trying to have 80 supply in X minutes. As you repeat the build order, you will gradually do it more and more quickly and you'll eventually have 80 supply in X minutes, regardless of whether you ever know the value of X. Leaving that aside, just watch other replays. It's not reasonable to ask casters to change how they broadcast to suit your desire to know the time when you have nearly unlimited options for watching replays without imposing upon anyone. ????? Did you read what I wrote? I am not talking about copying a build order. Okay granted thats the main focus is, but its really not for some people. Like lets say Day9 is doing a TvP focusing on the T. Your a protoss, what you would get from this cast, is being aware of this fancy T push. But you cant do anything with said information because you cant compare it your build unless you are doing math via the youtube/blip whatever time bar which is just ridiculous. I mean if your a T you could totally make use of the video without the time. But for the Protoss player it means absolutely nothing say for entertainment value. I mean that point aside, for a strategical cast, does it even matter if the time is showing or not? I mean its not like Day9's main goal is to entertain. He even says at the beginning of the cast, "The Day9 daily, where you can become a better gamer". Well why not let players make the most out of the daily? Like Im a zerg and Idra does this uber fancy thing winning him the game vs Strelok. But strelok does this amazing timing push that I am not sure I can handle. So I note the time he pushes, his units, upgrades, food whatever. And then through the time, I compare it to what I have when he pushes. I. Know. You're. Not. Copying. A. Build. Order. You describe getting beaten because your opponent had 80 food at a point in time where you had 70, correct? So you want to have 80 or more food in the same length of time. You don't actually need to know that length of time in order to hit 80 food in that time. You have to build faster. You build faster by repetition of your build order (which you are not, in fact, copying...yes we heard you), not by trying to get there in a specific amount of time. You don't need to know the time in order to beat the time. When an athlete runs a race, he's not trying to cross the finish line in X amount of time. He's trying to cross it as quickly as he can. AND...all of this is moot because there are THOUSANDS of replays you can download and watch in order to compare the times at which both players hit supply milestones, not to mention your own replays. You're not dependent on watching videos on Youtube. What Day9's main goal is, is for Day9 to decide, not you. Day9 reckons he values not spoiling the game above showing the time for the people who may want it. So get your information somewhere other than Day9. You might have a valid point if Day9 was the only source of the information you wanted. As to the first paragraph: The whole point is realizing what you need to do. Granted, building faster may be your solution. Whatever you need to do, really doesnt matter. The whole point is realizing you need to do something. Of course the other application is what I detailed to mOnion in where you learn something like a spire timing. As to the second: What?!?! Im not dependent on just watching Day9 and Youtube??? Gaspgaspgasp. Yes I realize this. Of course I realize this. I (and I assume the OP) dont see why you cant have the replay timer open, so we could possibly learn/get more out of the cast. I also realize that Day9's intention is Day9's intention. But can we dont make a thread trying to give constructive critism? Me saying that its not Day9s point to be entertainment, yet to help people get better is just an argument. Invalid or not, still an argument. Its still a valid point, because in my eyes, there is no reason for him not to show the replay bar. Sure I could watch a replay and learn the same thing, but if I am watching Day9, why cant I just kill 2 birds with one stone, so to speak.
Because, just as entertainment is not Day9's primary focus, neither is your personal convenience. As I said, I would have more sympathy if it was actually difficult to obtain the information you want without the help of Day9. Arguably it's easier and more informative to watch replays yourself because, with a replay, you have free reign to control the speed and the camera, view all the various different tabs, etc. etc. instead of only what Day9 happens to focus on.
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Let's imagine that this idea was granted.
You now know the time.
now what?
what are you going to do with it?
you're going to practice your build to make it faster to beat someone else to that time, correct?
you're going to use the time to do something that you should already be doing.
Knowing the time is trivial. Knowing WHEN something happens isn't going to prepare you as well as practicing your build and making it stronger. You can't even see the time when you're playing. You're asking for a crutch that won't even be provided for you in game.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game.
This. Can we close this now? If you are really arguing with this and suggesting that you need to see the time that he hit certain supplies, you just don't get it. YOU JUST DONT GET IT!!!!!
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EPT
