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On September 06 2010 11:24 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant tell anything through food, unless you know the times things happen. There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30. But, if you say "pro player moves out at 90 food, I will too" you will be. From that point on it is up to you to get to that 90 food as fast as possible. That is mechanics though, not strategy. If the caster leaves the supply bar up, or if he clicks on a player's unit, you can see the food. It is right there in the top corner, you can't miss it. -(Aassuming he is in a replay, if he isn't then this whole thread is moot anyway).
Your thinking about it in a different way I guess. What I mean is like your thinking of the person your watching as your opponent, not yourself. Which to me is one of the bigger reasons to watch replays/vods. I mean yeah if you do what he does and push at 90 food, I mean thats okay you can tell through that. What I mean is "In a BratOK style, at 6 30 he pushes with 80 food. In my style at 6 30 I have 70 food. I need to change some things so I can get more food by 6 30 so I can survive this push."
I mean the example doesnt make a lot of practical sense but I think you get the jist. So by through watching the replay/vod and comparing you know either you need to worry about this thing and practice against it. Or you dont need to worry about it.
I think thats the most practical sense of watching a strategical cast, where you just compare your builds against the builds your seeing. I think thats the point the OP is trying to put up.
[QUOTE]On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:
[quote]And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I bet he loves that.[/QUOTE]
I didnt sent the PMs like 5 seconds in a row. Very spread out. Maybe the first one was right when he put up the blocker thing. Then after 3 months I sent another one. And then the most recent one was about a month ago.
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Yeah, I am completely 100% against this suggestion. Manifesto sums it up pretty well, just use the damn food counts, which are far more useful than timings. Aside from the obvious points pointed out already such as skill gap, how do you plan on timing when you move out ingame based on those times? It isn't realtime, so if you have a stopwatch you'll be off there. And there isn't an ingame clock based off ingame time that can be shown. So surely, the food count method is not only easier and doesn't require the spoiling of the game, but it is also far more effective?
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I would say for streams focused around analyzing games like for example day 9 daily, there's no need for a spoiler box, since day9 himself says it's goal isn't to be entertained by the games. For the typical commentary though, spoiler boxes are important for making pushes and dangerous situations more suspenseful to the viewer. Who's going to be tense when the replay bar shows this push will end the game before it even engages, or if it reveals the opposite? Even a harass or push 10 minutes into the game loses its intensity when you can clearly see the game lasts 45 minutes, meaning the engagement will most likely have little impact in the grand scheme of things. While if the timer was covered, this game Could be under 15 minutes long for all we know. It would be a lot more suspenseful to the viewer when the results are unknown, making it more entertaining. It's better not knowing.
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On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant compare or make decisions through food, unless you know the times things happen. And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject.
I think you should PM him more. lol
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Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to know the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything.
To reiterate:
useful information: buildings and units built. actions taken with units. positions of buildings.
not useful information: the times things happen. clearly they are going to just happen as quickly as possible, what else would a player possibly do.
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On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game.
pretty much
I think most people base timings off supply anyways when they're play (adjusted for unit or economic losses) instead of having a stopwatch next to them that they start every time they start the game
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I understand wanting to know the times things happen as a reference point. You watch a replay, you die at around X time because your opponent had 10 more food than you. You make note of that time and then you check your build order tab after each game just to check that you're getting closer to having 10 more food yourself by X time. It's just a way to measure whether you've actually improved.
On the other hand, there's a metric crap-ton of SC2 replay sites full of more replays than you could watch in a lifetime. I see no reason why you need to make your comparisons specifically from casted matches.
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On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything.
But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game, and hence you know you need to practice against it, before you hit the ladder or go into a tournament.
Is it affect? I can never tell which one is which
And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you.
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On September 06 2010 11:24 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 11:19 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game. Really? Thats like...... That doesnt make sense sir. Mod. The reason that doesnt make sense, because if your watching a cast, how do you when he gets that X supply? You need to know the times to compare it to your own builds. Yeah supply is part of that, but thats only after you know the time. You cant know, when you have 30 food, the T has X food unless you know the time you have 30 food, so you can see at that time you have 30 food, he has X food. You cant tell anything through food, unless you know the times things happen. There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30. But, if you say "pro player moves out at 90 food, I will too" you will be. From that point on it is up to you to get to that 90 food as fast as possible. That is mechanics though, not strategy. If the caster leaves the supply bar up, or if he clicks on a player's unit, you can see the food. It is right there in the top corner, you can't miss it. -(Aassuming he is in a replay, if he isn't then this whole thread is moot anyway). Show nested quote +And yeah I completely agree with the OP. Ive PMd day9 about 3 times about this subject. Yeah I bet he loves that.
No. You're very wrong dude.
Anyone with decent mechanics (D+ level on iccup or even worse) can run basically a perfect timing attack down to the second.
It's very important to know when builds mature and when attacks hit down by time, not foodcount. Frequently things like worker cutting lead to similar food counts at different times. Zerg can be 2 food behind by losing some early lings. Early pressure can throw off food counts a bit. It's so important to know the exact timings. It gives a metric by which new builds can be measured to see if they're viable or not, or what they have to watch out for.
It's also very important for newer players to have a goal to reach. It's not useful to say "this 4 warpgate hits at 42 food." It will take a newer player an extra minute to reach there perhaps because his macro is bad and he doesn't constantly make probes, or he loses a few units early to some sort of early pressure, or misses chronoboosts. That player will look at the pro rep and see the same supply and say to himself "what am I doing wrong, I have the same stuff!" However, if that player knew he had that stuff a minute late he'd know he has problems and he'd know what to work towards. Seeing that warpgate finished at 6:25 is more important than seeing that it finished at 28 food.
It's a very valid concern by the OP.
However, an ingame clock or clock overlay would help solve that. Is there an option to turn on a clock? I'm sure a program can be developed that would do this, regardless.
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On September 06 2010 12:10 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything. But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game. Isnt it affect? I can never tell which one is which And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you.
But what's important is you understanding when supply-wise to build tech structures. You learn the build order that way, and then just do it as quickly as possible. Then practice and do it quicker. The information you want will come from a good build order and good scouting, not from saying "A 4 gate pushes out at x time"
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"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway.
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On September 06 2010 12:15 AJMcSpiffy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:10 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything. But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game. Isnt it affect? I can never tell which one is which And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you. But what's important is you understanding when supply-wise to build tech structures. You learn the build order that way, and then just do it as quickly as possible. Then practice and do it quicker. The information you want will come from a good build order and good scouting, not from saying "A 4 gate pushes out at x time"
But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it.
On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway.
Why does everyone seem to miss the point? Yes it does seem rather narcissistic, but its a very, very valid point. I just think its not being listened to because no one is understanding or realizing why its important to see the time.
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On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway.
what this guy said
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I'd rather address Blizzard, as I'm sure it's embarrassing that the game requires ext. mumbo-jumbo.
Include UI option to hide total replay time -> so many awkward casting problems solved.
Day9 & Co. use cover bars as a temporary workaround, not because they prefer it that way.
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On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:15 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On September 06 2010 12:10 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything. But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game. Isnt it affect? I can never tell which one is which And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you. But what's important is you understanding when supply-wise to build tech structures. You learn the build order that way, and then just do it as quickly as possible. Then practice and do it quicker. The information you want will come from a good build order and good scouting, not from saying "A 4 gate pushes out at x time" But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point?
What people are saying is that the time is ultimately irrelevant except as a yardstick so you can see your improvement. Quickness comes from repetition, not from trying to have 80 supply in X minutes. As you repeat the build order, you will gradually do it more and more quickly and you'll eventually have 80 supply in X minutes, regardless of whether you ever know the value of X.
Leaving that aside, just watch other replays. It's not reasonable to ask casters to change how they broadcast to suit your desire to know the time when you have nearly unlimited options for watching replays without imposing upon anyone.
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rodrigo i think you're right and it is affect i have trouble with that one too, clearly
lol
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On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:15 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On September 06 2010 12:10 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything. But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game. Isnt it affect? I can never tell which one is which And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you. But what's important is you understanding when supply-wise to build tech structures. You learn the build order that way, and then just do it as quickly as possible. Then practice and do it quicker. The information you want will come from a good build order and good scouting, not from saying "A 4 gate pushes out at x time" But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? Yes it does seem rather narcissistic, but its a very, very valid point. I just think its not being listened to because no one is understanding or realizing why its important to see the time.
Because your mindset is stupid and you overvalue the time. Trying to set specific times when u get your stuff is ridiculous because it's gonna vary game to game depending on how the game progresses. Maybe the opponent goes for another kind of tech that requires you lay a bunker or float a CC a little later or ahve your ebay up earlier. What if your economy gets delayed beucase something happens and you have to pull scvs or you lose your scout early and have to send another one or a pair of lings picks of a worker or 2? Theres a million things that can happen that will skew your timings, which is why its completely ridiculous to try and build everything at certain times. Instead, learn when to get stuff relative to other stuff, and sometimes relative to your food count.
I'll use an Sc1 example. Suppose I want to do the Flash build, a 2 attack 1 armor timing push. I time my starport when my +1 attack is halfway finished. If I do that, I can get a science facility right after and it finishes just as the +1 finishes, which allows me to get the +2 attack without delay. Obviously the time i set up my armory is gonna vary depending on what build i choose and what not, so it's pretty useles for me to tell myself something like "i need to get my starport at 15 minutes 36 seconds"
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On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
Or you could just look at the supply count of the player, which is a much more accurate way of determining when things happen in game.
Supply only helps if you're mirroring the build of one of the players. You can argue that if you're doing something else, then the other player may be doing things differently too.. but this doesn't quite hold up, because most players still just blindly execute whichever build they decided on before the game.
It's the difference between:
"Build x will have y units at z minutes"
and
"Build x will have y units when I'm at z food if nothing has caused a deviation from the build I'm watching"
Also, if you doing something similar build you're watching, how then do you compare yourself with that player? How do you know which of you gets to x food first? You have to go check the replays... and compare the time.
On September 06 2010 11:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
There is no way a regular player can get to the same spot in the same time as a pro player. So, if you think "pro player moves out at 6:30, I should too" you aren't going to be in the same game position. He will have 40 units and you will have 30.
This isn't true. The difference in timings between top players and decent amatures is minimal in the early game when both are just executing a build. That isn't where the skill gap lies, but it is where timings are most useful. Of course, after the early game none of this matters.
If you're basing anything off timings you should be using most optimal time anyway. I don't care if I can get enough stuff to hold a weaker player if I just get rolled when playing someone that can execute a build properly.
If you're using food or something else for your timings, cool - we're doing things a bit differently. That doesn't constitute a reason for keeping the spoiler hiding nastiness.
Next up, paraphrased quotes:
Day[9] isn't about specific builds
This is true, it's not usually the focus of his casts. It's also not relevant to this discussion, because I'm suggesting a way that we can get more out of his casts without changing anything else. Like I said, we can get this information elsewhere, but it would be nice not to have to.
Why should he do something for you?
Oh screw it, here comes some bolded text:
These vidoes could offer more strategic value to many players with a trivial change. Since these are strategic casts this is in line with the focus of the videos and therefore should be implemented.
Please, argue this point if you wish to argue. Don't just say "you should do things differently". I'm not interested in debating that further, because I really don't understand how people can say that timings shouldn't matter at all for anyone trying to improve at this game.
edit: I'm going to qualify that last statement, because SubtleArt made a coherent point (yay!). Timings aren't a be-all and end-all, but they have their uses. While many of these overlap with other methods of timing (supply, buildings, whatever), there some some situations in which they aren't matched. For example, to see if a build can match the production of another in the same circumstances, or to see if one can get enough units by the time a certain push arrives.
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On September 06 2010 12:17 RodrigoX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:15 AJMcSpiffy wrote:On September 06 2010 12:10 RodrigoX wrote:On September 06 2010 12:04 travis wrote:
Wait... so I don't understand the complaint. Why do you need to know how far into the replay it is, exactly?
Oh, you want to mow the specific times things happen? That doesn't matter. Just look at what happens and copy that if you want to copy things. Knowing the time it happens shouldn't effect anything. But you need to see the times to compare such things to your own build. I mean its all good and right just to copy down and go (although it can help to know that Morrow had 90 food at 8 minutes but you at 8 minutes have 70) but if you want to know if your 1 1 1 style can survive a 3gate robo push or your Z 3 expansion build can survive a 2 robo colossus all in, you need to know what time he pushes out, and how much food/units/upgrades you have when he does, so you can either say your fine, or adjust. Because more likely that not, if you die in your head, your going to die in game. Isnt it affect? I can never tell which one is which And @Manifesto, this explanation is probably a better one than the ones I gave you. But what's important is you understanding when supply-wise to build tech structures. You learn the build order that way, and then just do it as quickly as possible. Then practice and do it quicker. The information you want will come from a good build order and good scouting, not from saying "A 4 gate pushes out at x time" But Im not talking about copying a build order. I mean the reason I watch Day9, or Psy, or just watch pro replays in general, is not to only get ideas, but to know whats out there, and see what players could do against me in the ladder or in a tournament. And after I know, I can adequately prepare for it. Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 12:17 SubtleArt wrote:
"Sup guys, so like, I have a complaint that no1 else has could you please change all ur vids for me cause thats liek reasonable and not narcissistic of me?"
How about see the food count, that's usually a better indicator of relative timings anyway. Why does everyone seem to miss the point? Yes it does seem rather narcissistic, but its a very, very valid point. I just think its not being listened to because no one is understanding or realizing why its important to see the time.
its not valid you're just terrible
you're trying to sway casters who literally have years and years more experience than you in this field. day9 has been playing for forever and Psy was like C in BW so I would think they know quite a bit more than you do.
the fact is that you're never going to have a clock on your screen, or a stopwatch with you at a live tournament. so the best way to judge when to push is based on food. sure the time seems more accurate but its actually incredibly ambiguous, way moreso than food count. when ppl say "blah blah and this push comes at 8 minute 30 second i always respond with "ok and what?" because that tells you nothing about the strenght of the push.
what makes a push strong is your food count in comparison to your opponents food and tech. if your 80 food push comes when your opponents spire is just about to finish then thats a timing, it has nothing to do with actual time.
also your attitude towards mods is pretty shitty. bow to manifesto.
edit: also having the bar there spoils shit, which ppl have already said
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I don't think clock timings are at all important in SC.
If you use good mechanics and follow the order of operations given in the video, you'll hit similar times because that's what build orders do, they allow you to get reasonably reliable results from game to game without the use of a stop watch when you play.
Day9 doesn't sit there and say "he's moving out" without showing you exactly what the build up to that moment is. He walks you through the build order and that gives you a fairly accurate timing to hit based on the game up until that point rather than making people rely on paying attention to scouting, production, micro, AND some stop watch. Have you not heard the man stress the words "Relative timing" enough yet to understand this? Seriously, he talks in Bold, Italics, and Underlined words when he says it...
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EPT
