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Gregsen
Germany667 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:34 Chill wrote: I feel like drama like this has happened 90 times before (OMG NO MSL, etc.) and then it always goes forward anyways. Chill, your words kinda chill me anytime, in any situation.  Let's just hope for the sake of esports that you're right again. | ||
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Zona
40426 Posts
On August 31 2010 23:43 DarkspearTribe wrote: Here is something to read about KeSPA from guy in South Korea (quoted from Kespa cancels Nada vs TLO thread): + Show Spoiler + For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea 1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time. Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard. This list is definitely not entirely accurate. For example, it cannot be claimed that Kespa pulled all progamers under it out of the GomTV Classic since plenty of players did participate. Nor did GomTV go out of business at any point in time. A lot of the statements are also unverified. For example, "Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason." is what Blizzard claims in a PR statement, although Kespa claims the opposite, that Kespa tried to acquire a license and Blizzard would not negotiate. And I have no idea how anyone would know that "In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA." is true. Just because a list is nicely numbered doesn't mean it's accurate. Anyways, now it's really time we find out how much solidarity Gretech will show with its related companies OGN and CJ. OSL cannot go on without Proleague. Without Proleague the team sponsors pretty much lose all incentive to continue paying and housing their players, and if/when those players are dropped, participation in OSL will probably be greatly impacted as well. And if OSL runs without MSL, I do think a significant chunk of fans will be angered and affect turnout for OSL. | ||
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Ricjames
Czech Republic1047 Posts
On August 31 2010 20:06 darmousseh wrote: sc1 makes blizzard almost no money at this point. The only thing blizzard needed sc1 for was to get a league underway in korea, and that is called gsl. Now that gsl is up and running (and very popular to say the least) blizzard has 0 incentive to keep sc1 going unless they do some crazy sc2 promotion. Plus blizzard wants pros to transfer to sc2 to get the scene really going. I think blizzard negoatiates for a single tournament like osl, but requires that sc2 be advertised during the broadcast. the meeting will go something like this "is it worth it to continue to promote sc1? if so what are the projected advertising revenue from it? What could we gain if msl and osl just stopped? They will make a comparison and decide in a business like fashion. I haven't haven't read the whole thread, but i had to react instantly to this. Seriously now i just got really pissed and "Fuck" Blizzard! They didn't care about bw at all and now they even try to kill it, because they want profit from something they haven't do a shit for. They unfortunately make shitty boring new game with shiny graphics and try to kill the best game ever. SC BW should never be stopped playing at least in Korea, because come on...Has someone ever said, hey let's stop playing soccer or chess, they are so old and meh... I was looking forward to SC2 and it dissapointed me (might change with time and expansions). At least leave us with bw progaming alive to get some entertainment from. The whole bw scene was killed by money (lack of it). Foreign scene has no tournaments going at all so competitive playing for foreigners is gone. I hope Blizzard won't mess up Diablo 3 at least. Sorry i just had to release my wrath, i really wish more companies just invested in bw progaming and it would get big as all bw players always dreamed. Sc 2 is a huge mess right now and i hope they manage to do something with it, but i kinda doubt it. The only success is that they are throwing huge money tournaments in simple, boring game - congratulations. | ||
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Nesto
Switzerland1318 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:32 Gregsen wrote: Sorry, but everyone who takes this as an objective list of facts is a huge tool. It just takes one single read to see how biased this shit is. Just look at the conditions OGN had to agree with. Of course it is one sided. But the whole thing about the Nada Showmatch, and the thing with Mike Morhaime meeting Progamers is just fucked up, and I don't see much of a justification for this, but I'm sure you will have some objective reasons for Kespas actions. - cheers, the Tool | ||
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xlep
Germany274 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:12 Gregsen wrote: Since another insult would probably give me a ban, I just recommend you to read the thread first so you get to know the conditions that OGN had to agree with. It is nice to be informed about a topic before posting. In addition to that, I'm curious to see if the korean court shares your view. Most likely not, as laws are different in Korea, especially regarding issues like claiming property rights after 10 years without complaining and willingly receiving all the advertising made by MBC and others. Blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big, all the credit goes to the korean broadcasting companies and the players. I just read over the thread, granted I didn't read every post, but I can't find one valid argument for OGN not being able to come to an agreement with Gretech. Some people say that MBC just can "afford" it because they got the bigger sponsors, but I can't imaginge Gretech forcing OGN to pay the same amount of money when they have half of the founds available (just an example). Further to all people shitting on Blizzard now: I don't agree with what they did either, but you got to cut them some slack. Blizzard made BW and they didn't just come in and try to call the shots. They stepped in after Kespa tried to profit from their game and they did try to organise events (with GOM). Hate on Activision/Blizzard all you want, but Kespa is at least as bad and greedy as them, if not even worse: They didn't pushed Blizzard out and basically crushed GOM only to secure their standing in the BW scene that they didn't even create. | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On August 31 2010 20:06 darmousseh wrote: sc1 makes blizzard almost no money at this point. The only thing blizzard needed sc1 for was to get a league underway in korea, and that is called gsl. Now that gsl is up and running (and very popular to say the least) blizzard has 0 incentive to keep sc1 going unless they do some crazy sc2 promotion. Plus blizzard wants pros to transfer to sc2 to get the scene really going. I think blizzard negoatiates for a single tournament like osl, but requires that sc2 be advertised during the broadcast. the meeting will go something like this "is it worth it to continue to promote sc1? if so what are the projected advertising revenue from it? What could we gain if msl and osl just stopped? They will make a comparison and decide in a business like fashion. You're pretty clueless if you think that. Do you not realize what a ridiculous following Sc1 has given blizzard? That's given them more than broadcasting profits ever will. | ||
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s.a.y
Croatia3840 Posts
KeSPa got greed. Don't bite the hand that feeds you | ||
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WECKL
Sweden36 Posts
:/ blizzard should focus more on balance and less on this bs. again, pre-activision and pre-WoW... i miss the good old times  | ||
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Gregsen
Germany667 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:43 Nesto wrote: Of course it is one sided. But the whole thing about the Nada Showmatch, and the thing with Mike Morhaime meeting Progamers is just fucked up, and I don't see much of a justification for this, but I'm sure you will have some objective reasons for Kespas actions. - cheers, the Tool Every child can see that Mike Morhaime just wanted to meet up with Progamers to convince them to hop over to SC2 in the future. There was no interest in BW whatsoever. For 10 years Blizzard didn't care a single bit about progaming, and now that SC2 is on the bridge they should get hailed for the attention they're giving to possible SC2 stars? come on. I would've done exactly the same if I was Kespa. | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:47 s.a.y wrote: I don't mind. KeSPa got greed. Don't bite the hand that feeds you Yea of course Kespa got greedy suddenly after 7 years, sure dude... Well if Broodwar dies i just quit watching e-sport altogether no big deal but would be sad, also no more TL | ||
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Gregsen
Germany667 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:44 xlep wrote: I just read over the thread, granted I didn't read every post, but I can't find one valid argument for OGN not being able to come to an agreement with Gretech. Some people say that MBC just can "afford" it because they got the bigger sponsors, but I can't imaginge Gretech forcing OGN to pay the same amount of money when they have half of the founds available (just an example). Further to all people shitting on Blizzard now: I don't agree with what they did either, but you got to cut them some slack. Blizzard made BW and they didn't just come in and try to call the shots. They stepped in after Kespa tried to profit from their game and they did try to organise events (with GOM). Hate on Activision/Blizzard all you want, but Kespa is at least as bad and greedy as them, if not even worse: They didn't pushed Blizzard out and basically crushed GOM only to secure their standing in the BW scene that they didn't even create. You're throwing the companies around here. OGN did come to an agreement with Gretech, MBC are the ones that couldn't. The reason is simple: MBC doesn't have the money to host a SC2 league besides the existing one, since they don't have a major sponsor like OGN strengthening their back. You simply cannot blame MBC for not having any interest in promoting SC2. And I can understand that, cause the game fucking sucks. Blizzard has to give credit to MBC though because they helped advertising Starcraft so much that without them, there would've been much less of a hype for Starcraft 2 in Korea. This is about Blizzard being fucking unthankful and greedy. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:32 danl9rm wrote: Kespa could have always approached Blizzard to negotiate a contract long before the other way 'round. Kespa didn't have to wait for Blizz to come knocking. If both sides knew it was coming, like people are saying, then why couldn't Kespa have made the first move? Wait, what? Why should KeSPA have made a contract in the first place? Blizzard never cared, and even endorsed their players by inviting them to Blizzcon... until now. | ||
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Gregsen
Germany667 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:55 ghrur wrote: Wait, what? Why should KeSPA have made a contract in the first place? Blizzard never cared, and even endorsed their players by inviting them to Blizzcon... until now. EXACTLY! Thank you. I almost forgot that Blizzard even endorsed the players under kespa by inviting them to their events because they knew how much of an advertisement they were giving to their game. And now they're acting like they've always been against the fact that their property is being used. God this fuels my hate even more. | ||
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Mellotron
United States329 Posts
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that. You do realise that most progamers look down on SC2 with disdain, right? | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:59 Mellotron wrote: If i was a progamer, i might be secretly crossing my fingers for BW to finally be laid to rest. That way i could get a chance to play a new game for christs sake. No one ever wonders if the players themselves already stuck on proteams might be wanting a change, no matter what the financial risk. You think they are sitting around praising kespa for telling nada what he can and cant play? Humans dont work like that. Then you are just a tool. Everbody and their grandmother knows that BW > SC2 as a spectator sport. SC2 is boring as fuck. | ||
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antas
Indonesia300 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:44 xlep wrote: I just read over the thread, granted I didn't read every post, but I can't find one valid argument for OGN not being able to come to an agreement with Gretech. Some people say that MBC just can "afford" it because they got the bigger sponsors, but I can't imaginge Gretech forcing OGN to pay the same amount of money when they have half of the founds available (just an example). Further to all people shitting on Blizzard now: I don't agree with what they did either, but you got to cut them some slack. Blizzard made BW and they didn't just come in and try to call the shots. They stepped in after Kespa tried to profit from their game and they did try to organise events (with GOM). Hate on Activision/Blizzard all you want, but Kespa is at least as bad and greedy as them, if not even worse: They didn't pushed Blizzard out and basically crushed GOM only to secure their standing in the BW scene that they didn't even create. BW became so famous because of Korean Progaming Scene .. Why Blizzard so stubbornly would like to ruin this scene now? Sure, I understand that both parties would like some shares of the money, yes I can understand that. But what makes it so difficult to reach an agreement. A live pro gaming scene will obviously made fortune to Blizzard one way or another, so why not letting KesPa to live? Blizzard made money from WoW, merchandise, game selling, and so on and so on. Why is it so difficult to share some of the cake? Yes, take some money from licensing or whatever, but just don't ruin it to the point you will regret it yourself. F*ck this, soccer gone awry, now this? | ||
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xlep
Germany274 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:53 Gregsen wrote: You're throwing the companies around here. OGN did come to an agreement with Gretech, MBC are the ones that couldn't. The reason is simple: MBC doesn't have the money to host a SC2 league besides the existing one, since they don't have a major sponsor like OGN strengthening their back. You simply cannot blame MBC for not having any interest in promoting SC2. And I can understand that, cause the game fucking sucks. Blizzard has to give credit to MBC though because they helped advertising Starcraft so much that without them, there would've been much less of a hype for Starcraft 2 in Korea. This is about Blizzard being fucking unthankful and greedy. sorry I screwed the broadcasting stations up. Ok, with this explanation I can understand them not coming to an agreement, though I don't believe that there is no way to come to an understanding. Looking at all the tournaments spawning here you'd think that there'd be some company would be willing to sponsor a tournament. On September 01 2010 01:07 antas wrote: BW became so famous because of Korean Progaming Scene .. Why Blizzard so stubbornly would like to ruin this scene now? Sure, I understand that both parties would like some shares of the money, yes I can understand that. But what makes it so difficult to reach an agreement. A live pro gaming scene will obviously made fortune to Blizzard one way or another, so why not letting KesPa to live? Blizzard made money from WoW, merchandise, game selling, and so on and so on. Why is it so difficult to share some of the cake? Yes, take some money from licensing or whatever, but just don't ruin it to the point you will regret it yourself. F*ck this, soccer gone awry, now this? I totally share your point of view here. You'd think they'd be able to come to an agreement. I don't want to judge and of those, I'm just saying that Kespa is exactly the same. Sure the korean scene made SCBW big, but Blizzard made SCBW. What Blizzard does now is wrong, but so are Kespas actions selling the broadcasting rights for Blizzards game and forcing Blizzard out with GOM (correct me if I'm wrong but Blizzard was a main sponsor for gom, right?) | ||
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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Killmour
United States105 Posts
On September 01 2010 01:02 Xiphos wrote: Then you are just a tool. Everbody and their grandmother knows that BW > SC2 as a spectator sport. SC2 is boring as fuck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum | ||
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