EPT[Update p.28] Gretech - KeSPA/MBC negotiations break down…
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Waxangel
United States33584 Posts
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Gregsen
Germany667 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price. If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed? If so, you've got issues. edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house. Since another insult would probably give me a ban, I just recommend you to read the thread first so you get to know the conditions that OGN had to agree with. It is nice to be informed about a topic before posting. In addition to that, I'm curious to see if the korean court shares your view. Most likely not, as laws are different in Korea, especially regarding issues like claiming property rights after 10 years without complaining and willingly receiving all the advertising made by MBC and others. Blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big, all the credit goes to the korean broadcasting companies and the players. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Surely some goodwill towards the organization that achieved this would be better than alienating them and the Korean fanbase. I don't see why Blizzard/Gretech expects to make money from this and how a scene can be viable for the long term with profit as its goal, the 'profit' to them should be simply the promotion of the game. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:09 Waxangel wrote: Fucking NDA, I don't really believe anything anyone says -__- same here, the whole situation is just disgusting and sad, with no real glimmer of hope | ||
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Dyllyn
Singapore670 Posts
especially when the alternative is the immediate destruction of an entire proscene, not to mention the loss of jobs for hundreds of koreans... I personally think KESPA is being really tightfisted about this | ||
swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:15 infinity2k9 wrote: Wow this completely fucks over the players who have been practicing for years solely for the promotion of a new game. How can eSports ever be properly recognized if scenes can simply be forced into these situations on a developers whim after so many years running? The Proleague and OSL must be one of the longest running and most successful examples of eSports ever, yet for some reason they are so willing to throw that away. Surely some goodwill towards the organization that achieved this would be better than alienating them and the Korean fanbase. I don't see why Blizzard/Gretech expects to make money from this and how a scene can be viable for the long term with profit as its goal, the 'profit' to them should be simply the promotion of the game. this exactly | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On August 31 2010 23:43 DarkspearTribe wrote: Here is something to read about KeSPA from guy in South Korea (quoted from Kespa cancels Nada vs TLO thread): + Show Spoiler + For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea 1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time. Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard. Wow, thanks for that quote. I hadn't read that before. And thanks to the guy that originally wrote it. This is what I've viewed for myself in the past couple years, but it's always good to have more sources for the same story. | ||
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metaldragon
United States251 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:17 GenericTerranPlayer wrote: Doesn't anyone else think that KESPA should just give in (they have been getting a free ride on Blizzard's IP all this time after all) especially when the alternative is the immediate destruction of an entire proscene, not to mention the loss of jobs for hundreds of koreans... I personally think KESPA is being really tightfisted about this I agree Kespa seems to be going all in instead of losing a % of the current revenue. If flash can make 400k a year kespa is not fooling anyone with the "we are not profiting off BW and cant afford to pay" BS. Kespa Lost 70% of its weight when the GSL came around. an 80k+ 1st prize is more than a osl + msl and easier to achieve right now. With B-teamers and old timers doing as well as they are doing you can bet your bottom dollar that alot of Current Pro are dying for a shot at what would be for them Easy money. Sc2 WILL live on in korea Kespa has everything to lose and almost nothing to gain. | ||
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Nesto
Switzerland1318 Posts
On August 31 2010 23:43 DarkspearTribe wrote: Here is something to read about KeSPA from guy in South Korea (quoted from Kespa cancels Nada vs TLO thread): + Show Spoiler + For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea 1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time. Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard. thanks for this... didn't know a lot of this stuff, i'm starting to really be pissed off | ||
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On August 31 2010 23:43 DarkspearTribe wrote: Here is something to read about KeSPA from guy in South Korea (quoted from Kespa cancels Nada vs TLO thread): + Show Spoiler + For those who are not really aware of KeSPA's business, here's the timeline of KeSPA and its major events in (South) Korea 1. KeSPA (Korean e-Sports Player Association) was founded. 2. Blizzard didn't pay much attention to KeSPA. 3. KeSPA tried to sell tickets to offline audience for the final match of Ongamenet Starcraft taurnament. 4. Blizzard said, 'No, you can't do that.' 5. KeSPA then started to take money from two major game channels, Ongamenet and MBC Game, for broadcasting Starcraft matches in Korea 6. Blizzard got mad a bit about this. 7. Only GomTV contacted Blizzard directly to request for broadcasting matches online. 8. Blizzard asked only 1$ for the contract fee. 9. GomTV created GomTV Classic and began to broadcast games. 10. Around Season 4, KeSPA told GomTV to pay money for the broadcasting. 11. GomTV argued that KeSPA didn't have any rights to do so by mentioning its contract with Blizzard. 12. KeSPA pulled their progamers out of GomTV Classic matches. 13. Eventually, GomTV went out of business. 14. Blizzard got really mad. 15. Blizzard set in motion to protect its property as well as intellectual property of Starcraft. 16. Blizzard tried to negotiate a contract with KeSPA. 17. KeSPA refused, argueing that e-sports are like other sports such as basketball and soccer, and we don't pay money to the creator of the soccer ball for soccer games. Starcraft is for the public use like the soccer ball. 18. Michael Morhaime, the president of Blizzard, visited Korea to meet progamers while promoting new Starcraft2 beta in Korea. 19. KeSPA threatened each progamer team not to meet Michael Morhaime. 20. So Michael Morhaime couldn't meet any progamers and had to return to U.S. in vain. 21. Blizzard constantly tried to negotiate with KeSPA, but KeSPA kept refusing for the same reason. 22. Blizzard finally announced that there'll be no negotiation with KeSPA. 23. Blizzard provided GomTV with the rights for broadcasting all the matches using Blizzard games. Also Blizzard informed that all the matches from KeSPA after the end of August, 2010 will expire, so KeSPA will not be able to have any matches using Blizzard games, otherwise be sued by Blizzard. 24. KeSPA furiously reacted to the 'sudden' terms. (Actually, it seemed like threatenening Blizzard) 25. Ongamenet and MBC Game hurriedly tried to negotiate with GomTV 26. In fact, there's no difference for them because they are going to pay GomTV the same money which they've been paying to KeSPA. 27. The only weapon that KeSPA has now is progamer teams that belong to KeSPA. 28. KeSPA prohibited progamers (including SlayersBoxer and NaDa) from playing, or even trying, Starcraft 2. 29. Consequently, the current high ranking players are usually retired progamers and amateurs. 30. GomTV prepared for the broadcast of GSL(Global Starcraft 2 League). 31. The scale of the league surpassed by far that from KeSPA. 32. KeSPA is now trying some media manipulation saying bad things about Starcraft 2 33. Recently, KeSPA forced NaDa to quit playing during the Starcraft2 event match that was held in Germany. 34. KeSPA gave an excuse that it was because of a network problem. 35. KeSPA changed the excuse that NaDa had another event to attend to at that time. Most of these are known facts that have happend and are happening in Korea. I read the original version which was in Korean posted in Ruliweb.com and I got somewhat upset about the whole story, so i decided to trasnlate it into English so that many can learn about how KeSPA has been doing to fans, progamers, and Blizzard. so then Blizzard, the good guys come in and say, don't worry Starcraft fans, we will have KesPa pay us so they can go on doing the exact same thing they always did, Or we will kill the whole pro-scene so you guys no longer need to suffer the tyranic deeds of KesPa. wow that is great, thanks blizzard for freeing us from Kespa by killing the pro-scene...wait a minute. (also the points you quoted show a very biased side of the story) | ||
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prototype.
Canada4215 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:17 GenericTerranPlayer wrote: Doesn't anyone else think that KESPA should just give in (they have been getting a free ride on Blizzard's IP all this time after all) especially when the alternative is the immediate destruction of an entire proscene, not to mention the loss of jobs for hundreds of koreans... I personally think KESPA is being really tightfisted about this How about blizzard just leave kespa alone like they did for the last 10 years. It's like SC2 is being released and blizzard is all like, "ohh yeaa esports, ESPORTS MAAAN, we love it! But you're gonna have to sign a contract with us if you want to broadcast BW from now on. If not? Then screw esports." | ||
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
fucking leave brood war alone already. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:02 danl9rm wrote: lol at everyone crying at blizzard like it's their fault. It's their property, they can do what they want. And whatever they're asking must be reasonably fair, since OGN didn't have a problem with negotiating a price. If you rented a house for 10 yrs for $0, and even put work into the house to make it more lovely, and suddenly your landlord wanted you to start paying $500/mo, you'd get pissed? If so, you've got issues. edit: If you want your house for free forever, build your own dang house. We've had analogy discussions before on this point, and yours is no better because it is too basic. No analogy can cover all the details of these negotiations nor the history. Remember this: Blizzard has invited KeSPA sanctioned players to Blizzcons before to promote their games. This implies that they support BW/KeSPA before this whole ordeal. Also, payment=free advertisement. That's pretty good considering I heard Blizzard spent 20million+ on advertisement for SC2. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:12 Gregsen wrote: Since another insult would probably give me a ban, I just recommend you to read the thread first so you get to know the conditions that OGN had to agree with. It is nice to be informed about a topic before posting. In addition to that, I'm curious to see if the korean court shares your view. Most likely not, as laws are different in Korea, especially regarding issues like claiming property rights after 10 years without complaining and willingly receiving all the advertising made by MBC and others. Blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big, all the credit goes to the korean broadcasting companies and the players. How can you say blizzard didn't do anything to make their game that big? They made the game. I'm not saying this is the best way to go about things. Wait 10 years and then negotiate. But this is how it's happening, and I think both sides know it's not optimal, but once again, it's the situation they're stuck in. They might as well negotiate and get it over with. You guys act like blizzard knew in 10 yrs BW would be this big. They're not as crafty as you give them credit for. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:27 ghrur wrote: We've had analogy discussions before on this point, and yours is no better because it is too basic. No analogy can cover all the details of these negotiations nor the history. Remember this: Blizzard has invited KeSPA sanctioned players to Blizzcons before to promote their games. This implies that they support BW/KeSPA before this whole ordeal. Also, payment=free advertisement. That's pretty good considering I heard Blizzard spent 20million+ on advertisement for SC2. Kespa could have always approached Blizzard to negotiate a contract long before the other way 'round. Kespa didn't have to wait for Blizz to come knocking. If both sides knew it was coming, like people are saying, then why couldn't Kespa have made the first move? | ||
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Gregsen
Germany667 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:24 Nesto wrote: thanks for this... didn't know a lot of this stuff, i'm starting to really be pissed off Sorry, but everyone who takes this as an objective list of facts is a huge tool. It just takes one single read to see how biased this shit is. Just look at the conditions OGN had to agree with. | ||
Chill
Calgary25996 Posts
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KezseN
Singapore1450 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:23 metaldragon wrote: I agree Kespa seems to be going all in instead of losing a % of the current revenue. If flash can make 400k a year kespa is not fooling anyone with the "we are not profiting off BW and cant afford to pay" BS. Kespa Lost 70% of its weight when the GSL came around. an 80k+ 1st prize is more than a osl + msl and easier to achieve right now. With B-teamers and old timers doing as well as they are doing you can bet your bottom dollar that alot of Current Pro are dying for a shot at what would be for them Easy money. Sc2 WILL live on in korea Kespa has everything to lose and almost nothing to gain. If you think KeSPA is making a profit, where does it come from? Flash can earn that much because of his tournament winnings and the fact his team pays him one of the highest salaries. Only the prize money is from KeSPA. The only way KeSPA can recieve more money is to try and make sponsors pay more money, and as this is already a niche it might be not a very good idea to try and demand more. I think it's great that we have a self-sufficient scene with big sponsors like Korean Air supporting it, and it would be a shame to lose that. What happens when Blizzard decides that it's not in their interest to provide the prize money and other funds for the GSL? What sponsor is going to want to meet the demands from Gretech then? I just don't believe it's in the interest of eSports at all... we all want it to grow, yet this is in the opposite direction. | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
On September 01 2010 00:32 Gregsen wrote: Sorry, but everyone who takes this as an objective list of facts is a huge tool. It just takes one single read to see how biased this shit is. Just look at the conditions OGN had to agree with. Wow didn't know there are people who take this list seriously. You can immediately tell how baised it is haha. But hey a korean wrote it!!1 rofl | ||
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